How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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otseng
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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Athetotheist
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2131

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #2130
If the shroud is a fake, all the thread materials, whether linen or cotton, would be medieval. It wouldn't really matter if there was cotton in it or not; it would always date to a medieval date.
And there would be a gap between the front image of the head and the back image of the head.
If the shroud is genuine, it should be pure linen. When the STURP team investigated the shroud, every place they inspected the shroud was made of linen. Even if there was extraneous cotton due to loom contamination, it would be trace amounts and it would all date to 1st century.
And there would be a wrap-around distortion image where the cloth went over the head.
Of course it is "genuine" cloth, but it's not "main part".
The authors of the UofA paper beg to differ.
Where did I claim samples were switched?
As I understand some of your sources, that's what they seem to insinuate.
Athetotheist wrote:Even if more testing of the cloth is warrented, the bulk of the evidence so far leans toward what has already been indicated----a couple of bas-relief images impressed onto a piece of 14-century linen with some cotten fibers mixed into it.
If you really want to claim this, then we can explore this even deeper and put the discussions on the blood on hold.
You've been promising enlightenment in some particularly problematic areas; commencing on it would certainly be warranted.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2132

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 10:29 pm [Replying to otseng in post #2130
If the shroud is a fake, all the thread materials, whether linen or cotton, would be medieval. It wouldn't really matter if there was cotton in it or not; it would always date to a medieval date.
And there would be a gap between the front image of the head and the back image of the head.
Don't see how this is relevant with cotton contamination. As for image formation, I'll be covering that later.
If the shroud is genuine, it should be pure linen. When the STURP team investigated the shroud, every place they inspected the shroud was made of linen. Even if there was extraneous cotton due to loom contamination, it would be trace amounts and it would all date to 1st century.
And there would be a wrap-around distortion image where the cloth went over the head.
Ditto.
Where did I claim samples were switched?
As I understand some of your sources, that's what they seem to insinuate.
The question is why the facade of going into another room to put the samples into the vials and the break in video recording? I don't believe they were switching samples, but their behavior is highly dubious.
Athetotheist wrote:Even if more testing of the cloth is warrented, the bulk of the evidence so far leans toward what has already been indicated----a couple of bas-relief images impressed onto a piece of 14-century linen with some cotten fibers mixed into it.
If you really want to claim this, then we can explore this even deeper and put the discussions on the blood on hold.
You've been promising enlightenment in some particularly problematic areas; commencing on it would certainly be warranted.
OK, I'll continue with discussing the blood.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2133

Post by otseng »

Image
https://www.raydowning.com/blog/2016/2/ ... d-of-turin

To reiterate, all my arguments so far is the TS is not artwork, but an actual body was involved. The body could be Jesus of Nazareth or it could be someone else. I assert the evidence of the blood patterns correlates with the textual evidence from the Bible and that the image on the TS is Jesus.

Most of the blood stains on the TS are from scourging. Some information on Roman scourging:
Romans carried out many corporal punishments including flagellation, which were a part of criminal law and used in domestic, military, and public domains. Sources attest to different types of beating instruments, including the lorum (whip), habena (strap), scutica (lash), stimulus (goad), fustis (staff) virga (rod), catenae (chains) and, finally, the flagrum and flagellum (scourge). Milder punishments also existed such as the ferula (stick) that schoolteachers used. At home, the master could choose between the stick, lash, and scourge to beat his slaves.

By Jesus’ time, there was a longstanding rule that free Roman citizens were exempt from scourges and rods, which were only to be used on foreigners, slaves and gladiators. Even in the military the rod could be used only when the soldiers did not hold citizenship. In 70 BCE, Cicero accused the former governor of Sicily of having beaten Roman citizens with rods illegally. This rule also applied to Judea. When Paul was order bound with straps by the tribune in Jerusalem for the apostle to be interrogated under the scourge, Paul objected on the grounds of his Roman citizenship and was freed. There were exceptions: in 68 CE the Roman Senate proposed that Nero be beaten to death with rods.

Because of its brutality flagellation was feared: it produced deep wounds and could even lead to death. Unlike Jewish law, which had a maximum of forty lashes, Roman law did not provide for limits. Flavius Josephus offers accounts of flagellations carried out in Palestine where the strokes were delivered with such strength that they exposed the victim’s innards. He also confirms that scourging was a prelude to crucifixion.
https://www.asor.org/anetoday/2018/12/W ... ing-Jesus/

All four gospels mentions Jesus' scourging:

[Mat 27:26 KJV] Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered [him] to be crucified.

[Mar 15:15 NIV] 15 Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

[Luk 23:16 NET] 16 I will therefore have him flogged and release him.

[Jhn 19:1 WEB] 1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged [him].

The gospels do not go into much detail of his scourging, but interestingly, the TS reveals many details of how the scourging occurred.
The marks on the skin appear on the anterior chest as well as the back of the body where
they extend from the shoulders to the calves. On the back, the imprints appear in a sheaf-
like fashion directed toward and medially from the shoulders. Each of the marks consists
of two portions indicating that the instrument used was bifid. There are indented bleeding
points at each of these sites and, by ultraviolet fluorescence contrast, the marks resolve
into scratch-like linear lesions, each with three or four parallel elements. Some of the
other blood deposits on the Shroud show a pale aura around the area, suggesting a separation
of serum from other blood components. While the lower extremities are
involved by these injuries, none are present on the arms or forearms. The appearance of
these wounds is consistent with the application of a whip-like device having sharp or
rounded ends which tore the skin in a characteristic fashion. The marks are difficult to
count but they number at least 100.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ssi05part3.pdf
Almost the whole surface of the double human image on the TS is covered by those marks which
have universally been referred to scourging. They are particularly evident and numerous in
chest, back, buttock, leg and calve areas whereas they are fainter elsewhere, for example on belly
and back of knees, where the contact between the body and the sheet was absent or poor, as
demonstrated by Fanti et al. (1999) and Basso et al. (2000). In the dorsal imprint they are better
defined but somehow flattened on back, shoulders and buttocks, due to body weight. No
information is available from both right and left sides, whose imprints are lacking on the TS due to
its wrapping configuration.
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... ments_used

It can be determined there were two executioners by the criss-crossing patterns.
Computer analysis (Tamburelli 1981) of the body image also revealed that it was formed nondirectionally, whereas the scourge marks exhibited a radiation from two centers to the left and right of the body, the former being somewhat higher than the latter.
https://www.shroud.com/meacham2.htm
The configuration of the scourge marks — 120 in all — indicate that he was whipped by two men while bound naked to a post with his hands tied over his head.
https://www.ncregister.com/commentaries ... ood-friday

The scourge marks match a Roman flagrum with round balls attached at the ends.
Unlike the depictions of medieval artists, the dumbbell shape of the scourge wounds and their occurrence in groups of two or three match exactly the plumbatae (pellets) affixed to each end of the multithonged Roman flagrum (whip), a specimen of which was excavated at Herculaneum.
https://www.shroud.com/meacham2.htm

There are several deviations from the TS compared to typical artistic renditions:
- The TS man was naked when scourged
- Scourge marks left imprints also on the front of the body
- Scourging was done along the entire length of the body from the shoulders to the lower leg

And because of the regularity of the scourge marks, the scourging was done by professionals to inflict maximum pain across the entire body.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2134

Post by otseng »

otseng wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 4:08 pm
DrNoGods wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:29 pm Just FYI ... I've seen some moving of post numbers as well recently (and in the past). Today I see the referenced post as #1985 (page 199), while a day or two ago it was indeed #1979.
OK, thanks for the confirmation. I'll have to research why it's different.
Figured out why the post numbers are different. I see posts that have been deleted, whereas normal users cannot, so our post counts are different. As for fixing this, that'll be for another day.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2135

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #2132
Don't see how this is relevant with cotton contamination.
It's one of the areas you've been promising enlightenment in.
As for image formation, I'll be covering that later.
So you're willing to move on, but only if we stay in your comfort zone?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2136

Post by JoeyKnothead »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:24 pm [Replying to otseng in post #2132
Don't see how this is relevant with cotton contamination.
It's one of the areas you've been promising enlightenment in.
As for image formation, I'll be covering that later.
So you're willing to move on, but only if we stay in your comfort zone?
Comfort zone.

Who can show they know Jesus' blood type (or specific DNA), and what he looks like?
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2137

Post by JoeMama »

St. Augustine (354-430) was one of the founders of the Roman Catholic Church. He well understood that Christianity was like a house of cards; if the church dared to admit to even a single error in the Bible, who could say there wasn't an error on every page? The resurrection story might then be false and everyone's hopes are in vain. This is what he said:


"The most disastrous consequences must follow upon our believing that anything false is found in the sacred books....If you [even] once admit into such a high sanctuary of authority one false statement, there will not be left a single sentence of those books, which, if appearing to anyone difficult in practice or hard to believe, may not by the same fatal rule be explained away as a statement, in which intentionally, the author declared what was not true." --St. Augustine in Epistula, p. 28.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2138

Post by JoeMama »

The image on the shroud is obviously not Jesus'. The image is of a long-haired, bearded person, but Jesus when he was crucified was bald and was clean-shaven.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2139

Post by JoeMama »

[Replying to Thomas123 in post #2124]

Otseng,

You say you believe the shroud is the burial cloth of Jesus. Do you believe this because it makes you feel good to believe it, or because you're aware of evidence that proves the image on the cloth must be that of Jesus, and not some other person?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2140

Post by JoeMama »

[Replying to otseng in post #2122]

Why do persons on this site think the cloth in question might be the burial cloth of Jesus? Might it not be the burial cloth of some other person? At about the time this "Jesus" was alleged to have died, were there not tens of thousands of other men who died, too, who also might also have had cloth placed over their body?

What is it beyond blind faith that leads some persons to claim that the cloth holds image of the dead son of God?

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