Simple Test to Disprove Christianity

[boatsnguitars]

1. Find Christians who claim to have a relationship with Jesus
2. Ask them individually a series of questions
3. Compare the answers.
4. If the answers don't line up, then it shows that Christians don't have a relationship with Jesus.
5. The most likely answer is that Jesus doesn't exist in the way Christians claim.

Some questions:
A. What was your favorite food as a child, Jesus?
B. What should America do about it's National Debt, if anything? What steps should be done to reduce it, or should it be reduced at all?
C. Where is my great-great-great-great-grandmother buried?
D. Are both Hitler and Anne Frank in Heaven?
E. What is the 1 billionth digit in Pi?

These are samples of questions that could be compared. (Obviously, you'd want a double-blind study, etc.)

Objections:

1. "Jesus/God doesn't work that way!"
This is obvious to non-believers, since it's exactly what you'd expect from a non-existent person in a "relationship". However, Christians who claim to have a relationship with Jesus are often heard all the ways Jesus talks to them:
"I was drinkin' and druggin' and bein' all bad, and I asked Jesus, "Jesus, should I stop all this self-destructive behavior?", and he said, "Yes.""
"I was unemployed, surfin' on my Mom's couch and she was naggin' me, so I prayed to Jesus, "Jesus, should I get a job?", and I heard him clear as a bell, "Yes"."

So, this is very simple. Ask Jesus better questions, otherwise, it appears Jesus is no better than an incel's mother telling him to get a job. We expect more from our deities, no?

2. "Well, not all Christians are being honest about their relationship with Jesus"
This is certain. Christians of all stripes lie about Jesus. There's a reason there are over 10,000 denominations, many of those led by men (usually men) who claim to have had a revelation from Jesus to start their church. The Pope, Fred Phelps, Marcion, etc. They've all claimed to have a relationship with Jesus in some way - and they've all been either lying, or Jesus is telling them different answers (so much for not being the author of confusion!).
In fact, can't we sum up all religions as started by liars?
Aren't all people stained by Original Sin and liars? Aren't 99% of all religions automatically wrong - started by liars? Why do we simply accept the claims of one person over another?

3. "OK, maybe everyone is a liar, except me! If I can answer all those questions correctly, then Christianity must be true."
Not so fast. Sure, if one person answered all the questions correctly, we'd have a data point. But with over 1 billion Christians in the world, we'd expect 1 person to randomly get it right.
Besides, Christianity claims - in it's own book (unless it's a lie) - that Jesus DESIRES a relationship with us. If only one person can answer those questions (that could also be answered randomly), that doesn't support the claims of Christianity.

4. "You can't test God!"
(Why not? How convenient!) But, we're not really testing God - we're testing the people's claims of having a relationship with Jesus. After all, Christians want us to accept that Jesus has told them x, y, z, and that's why we can't have Gay Marriage, or eat meat on Friday, or have premarital sex, etc. In other words, see #1, they are more than happy to tell us Jesus has spoken with them and told them the 'facts" (yet, Chrtistians disagree). This is exactly what you'd expect from a false religion.

Conclusion:
This is a simple test. Almost stupidly simple. Committed Christians will do everything they can to avoid ever having to take this test - which belies their motivation.
This would be perfectly normal in a real relationship. If you wanted to know if Warren Buffet existed (or if people who claimed to know him, actually knew him), you could simply ask a series of questions. The people who answer the same, and answer what only Buffet would know, are most likely the ones in a relationship with Buffet.
The fact is, there is no difference between "Christians relationship with Jesus" and "There is no Jesus".

Bonus round:
Not all religions claim to have this kind of relationship with God. Thus, making those religions more likely true (or, at least, more difficult to prove the negative; that they aren't true).
Therefore, if Christians want to make Pascal's Wager, they should pick a different religion.

Are any Christians here willing to take the test? Wouldn't you like to know if Jesus is real - or which Christians are false?

Important Note:
This test highlights not only why Christianity is false, but shows how vastly different our world would be if it were true.
If Christianity were true, and Jesus/God had actual relationships with the millions of people who claim to have this relationship, we'd see a vast agreement from all those Christians on all kinds of issues. Politics, parenting, science, math, etc: All these would be supercharged if we could tap into the knowledge of God.

Our legal system: "Jesus, did he kill his wife? No? OK, sir, you are free to go. We've been told it's your neighbor."

Parenting: "Should I spank my children? Oh, you say one of them will learn from it but the other will be forever scarred emotionally and never be able to form meaningful relationships? Wow, thanks, Jesus?"

I know Christians will claim Jesus doesn't want to give us the answers. But this is just an excuse - and a lie - since they claim Jesus does, in fact, give them answers on a number of things when it comes to them personally, or things that involve the culture war. How many Christians are convinced Jesus doesn't like abortion - despite those babies getting a free trip to God, without any of the pain and agony in this mortal life? (As one of many examples)

Thoughts?

[Clownboat]

What era do you think they lived in?

The Cenozoic Era.

Why do you think thousands of Jews believed not just that Jesus was raised from the dead but God?

The same mechanism that explains why anyone is religious. Religious people, for the most part are just those that have been duped by the religion of their geography. Surely Muslims aren't Muslims because Allah is the one true god after all! You must see this.

Who are you saying would write something about it that would have been retained for centuries? The only writings of that time were from historians and they were not in Jerusalem and they did mention Jesus so it was a big deal.

I never mentioned a who. I do note that if hundreds of dead bodies got out of their graves and walked the streets of Jerusalem, we would read about it in more than just one religions promotional material. The Romans for one are famous for keeping all sorts of records. Even about fairly mundane things.

Are you saying the disciples were not Jews? What data do you have that supports that?

I have not said that. Are you saying the disciples were not Christians?

Why did Paul persecute the Church?

I don't claim he did.

Are you trying to say that the church was not mainly Jewish in Jerusalem? What data do you have that supports that?

What church are you inquiring about?

So many assertions and no data. Paul said that he persecuted the Church in 4 of his letters.

You mean Paul asserted that he persecuted the Church in the religious promotional material that he wrote.

What are you trying to communicate by this statement? That the persecution of the church never happened? When are you saying the persecution of the church started if not in the first century?

I don't claim there was a church that Paul persecuted. I have read the assertion in religions promotional material though. I could look back at my younger years and claim I use to persecute homosexuals. Sure I thought they deserved a hell, but I 'really' never persecuted a homosexual directly.

Why would I question Joseph Smith or Muhammad?

Because it is being asked of you in a debate setting.
Did Joseph Smith find golden plates and magic glasses? If not, why would he claim that he did?
(Dodge incoming)

The only thing I can do is compare their message from wherever to the Bible and see if it is true.

And a Muslim would do the same with their holy book. If you were born in Iran, do you think you would be a good Muslim today?

You cannot say whether or not the Mormons or the Muslims were duped or not.

I do say that and here is why. It makes far more sense than having all these competing religions all being true. We have religions on this planet. Some people, it seems get duped by the religion of their geography (typically), some humans don't find their geographic religions to be a good description to explain the world we see around us and remain agnostic, ignostic or atheistic.

You were not there when Joseph Smith or Muhammad said they saw their vision. But if you are talking about the mechanism the revelation for Bible was not the same as Mormonism and Islam.

I think you are missing the point on purpose. You ask why religious people would have done the things it is claimed they did (why die for a lie, why did Paul persecute). As if I should know their motivation. They are long dead. However, I can point to other instances of similar thing happening and we could then speculate together why humans do what they do.

Perhaps Joseph Smith's motivation was the same as Paul's or Muhammed'?

Besides Revelations which is a prediction of future events,

Please show that Revelations actually predicted the future. It seems you are taking a belief that stems from the religion of geography and asserting it as if it is fact.

the Bible was not written by dictation from a being like in Mormonism and Islam.

So are you saying that the Bible was written by humans? Why not believe in a religion where an actual God is claimed to have helped in the writings? I'm going to guess because you were not born in the correct part of the world to subscribe to such a belief.

I said "It was not Paul's message.

From my studies of Paul's message and Jesus's message, they are not the same.

If it was Paul's message why would he persecute the church for the message that he wanted to spread?

It would help to dupe people into belief for one reason.

But let me put it like this. It was not Paul's gospel message, because Paul persecuted the church, because of that message.

I hear your words and once again point to the 13 books of the New Testament that are believed to have been written by Paul. We can compare the writing of Paul's to those of Jesus anytime you would like.

Why again would Joseph Smith claim to have found golden plates and magic glasses?

Maybe he did, I do not know I was not there.

Thank you for making this admission.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #110]

Do you have any answers to these facts?
Yep. Done.

Ok we have now established that
1. Jesus existed
2. Jesus died by Crucifixion
3. Jesus rose from the Dead
4. Jesus is God.

Back to the OP
So if Jesus is alive and is God we can have a relationship with Jesus and the medium in which He communicates is the Bible.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #110]

Do you have any answers to these facts?
Yep. Done.

Ok we have now established that
1. Jesus existed
2. Jesus died by Crucifixion
3. Jesus rose from the Dead
4. Jesus is God.

Back to the OP
So if Jesus is alive and is God we can have a relationship with Jesus and the medium in which He communicates is the Bible.

I have to wonder if you think you've actually won, if you think people can't see that you've got nothing, or that you are a Poe.

By the way, here's a Simple Test to see if people are really Christians:

Matthew 5:40-44 New Century Version (NCV)
If someone wants to sue you in court and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. If someone forces you to go with him one mile, go with him two miles. If a person asks you for something, give it to him.

Give me all your money.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #0]

The same mechanism that explains why anyone is religious. Religious people, for the most part are just those that have been duped by the religion of their geography. Surely Muslims aren't Muslims because Allah is the one true god after all! You must see this.

According to your logic atheist are atheists because they are "duped" into believing lies. An atheist would have to be duped worse than the religious because they are duped into believing something with no answers. No, the answer to where life came from, no answer as to where the universe came from, atheists cannot explain something as simple as what reality is or what is real. In some atheist philosophies, I am not here and you are arguing with yourself. How crazy is that? So on the duped scale, I believe atheists have a corner market on that. And Just remember according to your atheist philosophy the rest of us are nothing more than "an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of underdone potato. There's more of gravy than of grave about us, whatever we are!”

You sort out your reality and then come and talk to me about who has been duped.

I have not said that. Are you saying the disciples were not Christians?

Ok, good we both think they were Christians. You have to check with atheists because they change like the wind.

Why did Paul persecute the Church?
I don't claim he did.

No, Paul claimed that he did. That reality thing always gets atheists.

Are you trying to say that the church was not mainly Jewish in Jerusalem? What data do you have that supports that?
What church are you inquiring about?

I understand atheists losing focus because when reality changes on you all the time you have no idea what is real.
That would be the Christian Church. You know that one that we have been talking about. Oh, yeah, unless your reality changed again.

You mean Paul asserted that he persecuted the Church in the religious promotional material that he wrote.

Why would Paul write that he persecuted the Church? I understand that atheists have a really tough time with reality and facts and all that kind of stuff.

I don't claim there was a church that Paul persecuted. I have read the assertion in religions promotional material though. I could look back at my younger years and claim I use to persecute homosexuals. Sure I thought they deserved a hell, but I 'really' never persecuted a homosexual directly.

Stop riding the fence what are you saying? Did he persecute the church or not?

Because it is being asked of you in a debate setting.
Did Joseph Smith find golden plates and magic glasses? If not, why would he claim that he did?
(Dodge incoming)

I did answer this. I was not there and neither was anyone else. So I do not know. I do not have a problem with both Joseph Smith and Muhammad seeing and experiencing a being that was not human or maybe they were human or they could have fabricated the story. I do not know I was not there.

And a Muslim would do the same with their holy book. If you were born in Iran, do you think you would be a good Muslim today?

Yes, probably. But there is a Christian revival going on right now in Muslim countries this is an answer to many prayers that Christians have prayed.

• According to Operation World, Iran has the fastest-growing evangelical movement in the world

• Iran has world’s ‘fastest-growing church,’ despite no buildings - and it's mostly led by women: documentary

• More Muslims have committed to follow Christ in the last 10 years than in the last 15 centuries of Islam. In spite of great difficulty and turmoil, Christianity is unquestionably expanding throughout the Islamic world. God is up to something amazing in a region that many have thought was unreachable.

• One million Sudanese have turned to Christ since the year 2000—not in spite of persecution, war, and genocide, but because of them…the estimated total number of believers in the country is more than 5.5 million.”

• Senior Pakistani Christian leaders tell me there is a ‘conversion explosion’ going on in their country.There are now an estimated 2.5 million to 3 million born-again Pakistani believers worshiping Jesus Christ. Whole towns and villages along the Afghan-Pakistani border are…converting to Christianity.”

• “At the time of the Islamic Revolution in 1979, there were only about five hundred known Muslim converts to Jesus inside the country. By 2000, a survey of Christian demographic trends reported that there were two hundred twenty thousand Christians inside Iran, of which between four and twenty thousand were Muslim converts. And according to Iranian Christian leaders I interviewed, the number of Christ-followers inside their country shot dramatically higher between 2000 and 2008.”

And I could go on and on. So maybe or maybe not. If I grew in in a Muslim country I may be Muslim or I may not be Muslim.

I do say that and here is why. It makes far more sense than having all these competing religions all being true. We have religions on this planet. Some people, it seems get duped by the religion of their geography (typically), some humans don't find their geographic religions to be a good description to explain the world we see around us and remain agnostic, ignostic or atheistic.

Only one religion says that God sent his son to die to forgive a man for their sins. Only Christianity can prove that their God exists. That He came and died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins and rose again.

I think you are missing the point on purpose. You ask why religious people would have done the things it is claimed they did (why die for a lie, why did Paul persecute). As if I should know their motivation. They are long dead. However, I can point to other instances of similar thing happening and we could then speculate together why humans do what they do. (usually, you can't but maybe)

Perhaps Joseph Smith's motivation was the same as Paul's or Muhammed'?

Men's needs and desires were not that much different than today. My question is not why to die for a lie although that is a legitimate question, that you obviously cannot answer. My question is why would Paul drastically change his view of the death and resurrection of Jesus to the point where Paul is proclaiming Jesus as God?

As far as Joseph Smith and Muhammaed I would probably lean towards them having some type of experience with something, but again not the God of Christianity because the God that is described is different than the one in Christianity.

Please show that Revelations actually predicted the future. It seems you are taking a belief that stems from the religion of geography and asserting it as if it is fact.

Time of described in Revelations has not arrived yet. Daniel is where events are described from the time of Daniel till Jesus. The Chruch age has no prophecy about it. Paul called this time a mystery.

So are you saying that the Bible was written by humans? Why not believe in a religion where an actual God is claimed to have helped in the writings? I'm going to guess because you were not born in the correct part of the world to subscribe to such a belief.

No, because Jesus died and rose again showing that He was God. Muhammed died and stayed dead. Joseph Smith died and stayed dead. Jesus died and rose again therefore He is God.

From my studies of Paul's message and Jesus's message, they are not the same.

What? Just because you said it makes it true.

It would help to dupe people into belief for one reason.

Ok, let me get this atheist "logic" correct. I know atheists struggle with reality so logic is sort of a hit-or-miss thing.

1. Paul got people to believe that Jesus died, rose again, and should be worshiped as God. In Jerusalem.
2. Paul persecuted those people for having that belief. In Jerusalem
3. And then he joined those people he double-crossed. In Jerusalem
4. And people still believed Paul's message in Jerusalem.

Ok, why would Paul do all of this? He was already wealthy because he was a Pharisee. He was a Roman citizen. And there is no data that says that Paul even knew Jesus. Using atheist logic.

if that would have duped you I can see why you are an atheist.

I hear your words and once again point to the 13 books of the New Testament that are believed to have been written by Paul. We can compare the writing of Paul to those of Jesus anytime you would like.

I don't have a problem doing that although I do not understand what that has to do with this discussion.

So you are making the assertion that Paul changed Jesus' message. What books of the New Testament are you deciding on that we can use?

Maybe he did, I do not know I was not there.

Thank you for making this admission.

And that means what to your argument.

[Clownboat]

Back to the OP
So if Jesus is alive and is God we can have a relationship with Jesus and the medium in which He communicates is the Bible.

You make an idol out of a book and mockery of the word relationship. I cannot join you on this quest, because if there is a God, it might not appreciate such things.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #115]

You make an idol out of a book and mockery of the word relationship. I cannot join you on this quest, because if there is a God, it might not appreciate such things.

Is this more atheist logic I do not get it.

[Clownboat]

According to your logic atheist are atheists because they are "duped" into believing lies.

Atheism is lacking belief and it's the position we were all born with. No duping is required. You failed to even get off the ground. Not a great start.

An atheist would have to be duped worse than the religious because they are duped into believing something with no answers.

Every human that has ever existed was born an atheist. They either get duped by the religion of their geography, or remain what they were.

No, the answer to where life came from, no answer as to where the universe came from, atheists cannot explain something as simple as what reality is or what is real. In some atheist philosophies, I am not here and you are arguing with yourself. How crazy is that? So on the duped scale, I believe atheists have a corner market on that. And Just remember according to your atheist philosophy the rest of us are nothing more than "an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of underdone potato. There's more of gravy than of grave about us, whatever we are!”

I'm not an atheists, but boy can I hear your whining loud and clear. Do you think that if you whine and complain about atheism enough, people will turn to your preferred god concept, or are you just doing it out of a mean spirit?

You sort out your reality and then come and talk to me about who has been duped.

Wait! What! What belief of mine do you claim I have been duped by?

Ok, good we both think they were Christians. You have to check with atheists because they change like the wind.

You don't like atheists do you? It shows and is not relevant to me.

I understand atheists losing focus because when reality changes on you all the time you have no idea what is real.
That would be the Christian Church. You know that one that we have been talking about. Oh, yeah, unless your reality changed again.

You don't like atheists do you? It shows and is not relevant to me.

Why would Paul write that he persecuted the Church?

Makes his claims all the more believable. Something a con artist would do to their 'mark' to make their claim more believable. Why do you thing Paul claimed to persecute the church?

I understand that atheists have a really tough time with reality and facts and all that kind of stuff.

You don't like atheists do you? It shows and is not relevant to me.

Stop riding the fence what are you saying? Did he persecute the church or not?

I do not claim that Paul persecuted any churches as I'm only aware of the claim being made in religious promotional material. Should we believe religious promotional material or not?

I did answer this. I was not there and neither was anyone else. So I do not know.

Let the record show that EarthScienceguy is unsure if Joseph Smith found golden plates and magic glasses to then write the book of Mormon.

I do not have a problem with both Joseph Smith and Muhammad seeing and experiencing a being that was not human or maybe they were human or they could have fabricated the story. I do not know I was not there.

You are the con artists mark it would seem. Don't let your mind be so open as to let your brain fall out.

And a Muslim would do the same with their holy book. If you were born in Iran, do you think you would be a good Muslim today?

Yes, probably.

You do not seem to understand what this does to your arguments or how it reinforces my notice that people are religious, not because of any actions of a god, but due to geography.

But there is a Christian revival going on right now in Muslim countries this is an answer to many prayers that Christians have prayed.

Please tell me they aren't using swords again!

And I could go on and on. So maybe or maybe not. If I grew in in a Muslim country I may be Muslim or I may not be Muslim.

What you say here suggest that you would make for a great Muslim.

Only one religion says that God sent his son to die to forgive a man for their sins. Only Christianity can prove that their God exists. That He came and died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins and rose again.

These claims of yours cannot be shown to be true and only serve to self indoctrinate. You can't use self indoctrination on others.

Men's needs and desires were not that much different than today. My question is not why to die for a lie although that is a legitimate question, that you obviously cannot answer. My question is why would Paul drastically change his view of the death and resurrection of Jesus to the point where Paul is proclaiming Jesus as God?

I would assume he desired power, much like men of today. Perhaps he was even duped into belief. I don't claim to know. You can't possibly be suggesting that if someone believes something that it must be true. Seems like that is where your line of thinking would lead.

As far as Joseph Smith and Mohammed I would probably lean towards them having some type of experience with something, but again not the God of Christianity because the God that is described is different than the one in Christianity.

Let the record show that Earthscienceguy is leaning towards Joseph Smith and Mohammed as having an experience with a something. Now what have we learned?

<snipped prophecy talk as the record should be pretty clear by now>

No, because Jesus died and rose again showing that He was God.

This is a statement only held by humans that profess to be Christians. You cannot show that your words are true. You know this, which is why I see it as nothing more than self indoctrination. Gotta bolster that faith or you might lose it.

Muhammed died and stayed dead. Joseph Smith died and stayed dead. Jesus died and rose again therefore He is God.

You're not even embarrassed are you?

Ok, let me get this atheist "logic" correct. I know atheists struggle with reality so logic is sort of a hit-or-miss thing.

You don't like atheists do you? It shows and is not relevant to me.

1. Paul got people to believe that Jesus died, rose again, and should be worshiped as God. In Jerusalem.
2. Paul persecuted those people for having that belief. In Jerusalem
3. And then he joined those people he double-crossed. In Jerusalem
4. And people still believed Paul's message in Jerusalem.

Paul became a leader for a new and emerging religious movement.

Ok, why would Paul do all of this?

To become a leader for a new and emerging religious movement. Sounds like you believe he had wealth already, so he would do it to gain the power that comes with such a position.
Why do you thing we still have people claiming that they are Jesus or Mary reborn? Should we believe them or suspect other human motivations? Why would Paul be immune to these human motivations?

Using atheist logic.

What is atheistic logic? Is your hatred for atheists coming out again? If so, remember, they also reject all the other god concepts that you also reject. You have more in common with atheists than you know.

if that would have duped you I can see why you are an atheist.

You don't like atheists do you? It shows and is not relevant to me.

So you are making the assertion that Paul changed Jesus' message.

Yup. Specifically in regards to things like:
- Paul claims that God will have mercy on who he has mercy. Jesus says that God will have mercy on the merciful.
- Paul says to love your neighbor. Jesus claims to love the Lord your God.
- Paul says we are justified by Jesus's sacrifice. Jesus says we are justified by our words.
- Paul says we will be judged by the law. Jesus says we will be judged by the words he has spoken (but failed to write down).
- Paul said that Christ is the end of the law. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law.
- Paul seeks to create a church. Jesus sticks to the idea that the kingdom is within us.
- Paul is all about sacrifice. Jesus claims that sacrifice is not desired.
- Paul says we need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus says that if we forgive others, God will forgive us too.

And that means what to your argument.

Nothing specifically. Just that you are open to the idea that Joseph Smith may have in fact found magic glasses and golden plates. I find that relevant and perhaps readers will as well.

[Clownboat]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #115]

You make an idol out of a book and mockery of the word relationship. I cannot join you on this quest, because if there is a God, it might not appreciate such things.

Is this more atheist logic I do not get it.

You make an idol out of a book by thinking it is some form of communication with a god. Imagine I had a golden calf that if you were just open minded enough and sacrificed enough chickens, you would hear communication with the one true God. Surely you would consider the calf as an idol. Your Bible is the golden calf.

Then there is your use of the word relationship.
Relationship: the way in which two or more people or groups regard and behave toward each other.

Could you imagine a husband that didn't speak to his wife, but instead insisted that they communicate via her reading a book written by humans that are not the husband?
This is what you are alluding to and what makes a mockery of your use of the word.

And finally. If there really was a God. It might not appreciate how you have subscribed to the religion of your geography which then claims this real God doesn't even exist.
This is just logic, nothing atheistic involved. Quite the opposite in fact SINCE A GOD WAS REFERENCED!

Careful now, as you're close to making a mockery of the word 'logic' as well.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #0]

Atheism is lacking belief and it's the position we were all born with. No duping is required. You failed to even get off the ground. Not a great start.

Whether it is a lack of belief or disbelief it really does not matter.

If you do not believe in God then you believe in a materialistic universe in which reality cannot be proved. In fact, your own existence cannot be proven. So yes anyone that does not believe in God has been duped. Unless you believe you do not exist but that would indicate much deeper problems.

Every human that has ever existed was born an atheist. They either get duped by the religion of their geography, or remain what they were.

If you mean atheist as in a selfish sinner, I can go along with that. Now if you mean "by the religion of their geography," They are products of the sins of their parents. I can agree with that.

I'm not an atheists,

What are you saying that you are? Agnostic, Christian, Muslim, Mormon. Who am I addressing? Or someone that changes in the wind.

You sort out your reality and then come and talk to me about who has been duped.
Wait! What! What belief of mine do you claim I have been duped by?

Who knows. Sort that out and tell me and then we can talk.

You don't like atheists, do you? It shows and is not relevant to me.

I actually do not mind atheists. I have no problem with people questioning my beliefs. I just thought that people like to talk like this on this site because that is how I am talked to. I really just mirror the conversation coming at me.

Makes his claims all the more believable. Something a con artist would do to their 'mark' to make their claim more believable. Why do you thing Paul claimed to persecute the church?

Because he said he persecuted the Church. 1 Cor. 15:9 "For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God." Do have any data to the saying something different from that time saying anything different.

I do not claim that Paul persecuted any churches as I'm only aware of the claim being made in religious promotional material. Should we believe religious promotional material or not?

So Paul said that he persecuted the church but he really did not persecute the church even though he confessed that he did. Is there some writing from that time that says that he did not persecute the church? What are you basing your assertion on?

I did answer this. I was not there and neither was anyone else. So I do not know.
Let the record show that EarthScienceguy is unsure if Joseph Smith found golden plates and magic glasses to then write the book of Mormon.

Ok, let the record show that is fine with me.

You do not seem to understand what this does to your arguments or how it reinforces my notice that people are religious, not because of any actions of a god, but due to geography.

What do you mean? This is exactly what the Bible says will happen when the father worships other gods. Deuteronomy 5:9 "You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."
And that is exactly what we see. This observation is confirmation of what the Bible says is will happen.

Only one religion says that God sent his son to die to forgive a man for their sins. Only Christianity can prove that their God exists. That He came and died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins and rose again.
These claims of yours cannot be shown to be true and only serve to self-indoctrinate. You can't use self-indoctrination on others.

Yes, I can prove them and I have proved that Jesus died and rose again and that Paul and the Church worshiped Jesus as God.
The following are historical facts.
1. Jesus died by crucifixion
2. The message of the early church almost immediately after the crucifixion was that Jesus rose again.
3. Paul persecuted the Chruch
4. Paul became a believer.
5. All Christians from the very beginning worship Jesus as God.

The conclusion has to be that Jesus rose again and is God. So far all you have said was that Paul never persecuted the church when he said he did in his writings and you have given no proof to back up your assertion. Neither do you have a reason on why Paul and the Church would worship Jesus as God.

You are trying to put your 21st-century values on 1st-century people. In the 1st century gods were very real and who you worshiped was very important. Christianity did not ask people to make Jesus one of the gods that they worshiped they were asked to make Jesus the one and only God. That was a big ask back then. And yet people did it.

I would assume he desired power, much like men of today. Perhaps he was even duped into belief. I don't claim to know. You can't possibly be suggesting that if someone believes something that it must be true. Seems like that is where your line of thinking would lead.

He already had power, he was a Pharisee. No, it is the actions of men that prove what they believe to be reality. Paul prayed to Jesus. So Paul believed that Jesus was God. Paul said Jesus was God.

To become a leader for a new and emerging religious movement. Sounds like you believe he had wealth already, so he would do it to gain the power that comes with such a position.

Paul already had power, he was a Pharisee so he was also already a leader.

Please tell me they aren't using swords again!

I don't know. Watch the news.

So you are making the assertion that Paul changed Jesus' message.

Yup. Specifically in regards to things like:
- Paul claims that God will have mercy on who he has mercy. Jesus says that God will have mercy on the merciful.
- Paul says to love your neighbor. Jesus claims to love the Lord your God.
- Paul says we are justified by Jesus's sacrifice. Jesus says we are justified by our words.
- Paul says we will be judged by the law. Jesus says we will be judged by the words he has spoken (but failed to write down).
- Paul said that Christ is the end of the law. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law.
- Paul seeks to create a church. Jesus sticks to the idea that the kingdom is within us.
- Paul is all about sacrifice. Jesus claims that sacrifice is not desired.
- Paul says we need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus says that if we forgive others, God will forgive us too.

Again you refuse to document your evidence. Makes me believe you have no evidence. Chapter verse you are speaking of here. Because anyone can make empty claims.

Nothing specifically. Just that you are open to the idea that Joseph Smith may have in fact found magic glasses and golden plates. I find that relevant and perhaps readers will as well.

Come back, come back, come back to reality.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #0]

You make an idol out of a book by thinking it is some form of communication with a god. Imagine I had a golden calf that if you were just open minded enough and sacrificed enough chickens, you would hear communication with the one true God. Surely you would consider the calf as an idol. Your Bible is the golden calf.

• The Bible says in Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

• When we neglect the word of God, we are neglecting the very thing that has the power to change our lives. The word of God has the power to convict us of sin, to teach us truth, and to lead us in righteousness (Psalm 119:9-11)

• So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it. Isaiah 55:11

If you want to call the Bible my Golden Calf I am good with that in fact thank you I appreciate that.

Then there is your use of the word relationship.
Relationship: the way in which two or more people or groups regard and behave toward each other.

Look at the verses above that is what the Bible does. It determines our behavior towards God and it describes how God will respond to us.

And finally. If there really was a God. It might not appreciate how you have subscribed to the religion of your geography which then claims this real God doesn't even exist.

Yes, and it is the parents who decide that. There are parents in the west in which the name of Jesus is not mentioned. The parents in that country do not want the message of Jesus.