How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

[Compassionist]

How do we know what is right, and what is wrong? For example, I think it is wrong to be a herbivore or a carnivore or an omnivore, or a parasite. I think all living things should be autotrophs. I think only autotrophs are good and the rest are evil. However, I am not certain that my thoughts are right. Can herbivores, carnivores, omnivores, and parasites become autotrophs at will? If so, why don't they? If they can't become autotrophs at will, is it really their fault that they are not autotrophs?

[Purple Knight]

We are discussing the objectivity of human morality, are we not? Therefore, objective would mean “independent of [human] people’s (including one’s own) opinion.” This means that the source must come outside of our own opinions, but that doesn’t mean that anything outside of our own opinions will suffice. A raccoon’s opinion is outside of human opinions, but they aren’t responsible for the design and purpose of humans, so they can’t objectively ground human morality. God, as our creator, would be both outside human opinions on the subject, as well as responsible for the design and purpose of humans.

Does this mean you would run rampant and kill people, if it benefited you and there was no God? Or would you instead heed Nature as our designer, and note that social animals are usually not supposed to kill their group members?

I present an alternative to morality that is independent of human opinion, which is that objective morality must take all human opinion into account. If we both think it's wrong to murder one another, then we agree and don't murder one another. And if we have the agreement, and one violates it, not because he was tricked into it and the agreement made him a slave, but genuinely violating a mutually beneficial moral agreement, then he is morally wrong. And maybe I think throwing spiders on people is wrong, and you think the like about throwing mice. If we respect one another, and it still benefits both, we will still agree.

Every murderer is not only someone who benefited greatly from society's prohibition on murder, but someone who never said honestly that he thought the law was wrong and didn't agree to it. While not positive consent which I would prefer, it's darn close. We will find the same with most basic rules.

[boatsnguitars]

How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

By consulting one's principles, ethics, ideals, and sense of empathy. If what is done agrees with them then they're right. If what is done doesn't agrees with them then they're wrong.

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Thank you for your reply. I want to make all living things autotrophs but I can't. I am a vegan but veganism is not good enough because even vegans cause harm. How can I make all living things autotrophs?

I don't think you can.

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That's what I think, too. Different people have different values. Different countries even have different laws. Even the same country has different laws at different times. Is right and wrong just a matter of opinion?

Take out "just".

It appears Right and Wrong are matters of opinion, but adding "just" is very reductionist. It matters greatly how we form our opinions, especially if you are a Nazi forming your opinions about Jews, for example. It's an incredible burden that Humanity has, but it can't shy away from the responsibility. I'd phrase it as Right and Wrong are matter of opinions, and it's critical that we discuss as many things as possible to come to some agreement on how we interact with each other.

If Theists don't like that idea, think of it this way: What better way would God have in seeing how His children grow than by having them learn to play nicely together, on their own? (I don't believe this, but it shows that, like the Jewish people believe, that God can both exist and be absent from our lives.)

The fact is, no one is coming to save us, and no one religion is ever going to have the power to enforce it's idea of morality on all of us. It's up to us. It always has been.

[Primaris]

3. If you haven’t claimed that “harm” is how we objectively determine what is objectively unjust (as I understood you to have said, then what are you saying about injustice?

If you are saying harm is the objective measure, then respond to my critique that you seem to be using this as a synonym for “injustice” and that you need to show why harming others is objectively bad for an individual.

What does it matter if morality is subjective or objective?
Here's why I don't think it matters: Why does god say rape is wrong? Is he 1)Using the harm principle or 2)just saying rape is wrong because he says so? Meaning he could change his mind tomorrow, which is subjective. #1 right? Or is there some other reason(a #3 and a #4....) Im not aware of?

My concern is the method in which we use.......or the method in which god uses to determine morality. WHY does god say rape is wrong? WHY do humans say rape is wrong? Some people will say it's wrong because their god says so. No real reason other than "god says so". But atheists have reasons to say rape is wrong. It causes harm. And as a society we have to live with rules and regs.

[Compassionist]

How do we know what is right, and what is wrong?

By consulting one's principles, ethics, ideals, and sense of empathy. If what is done agrees with them then they're right. If what is done doesn't agrees with them then they're wrong.

.

Thank you for your reply. I want to make all living things autotrophs but I can't. I am a vegan but veganism is not good enough because even vegans cause harm. How can I make all living things autotrophs?

I don't think you can.

.

That's what I think, too. Different people have different values. Different countries even have different laws. Even the same country has different laws at different times. Is right and wrong just a matter of opinion?

Take out "just".

It appears Right and Wrong are matters of opinion, but adding "just" is very reductionist. It matters greatly how we form our opinions, especially if you are a Nazi forming your opinions about Jews, for example. It's an incredible burden that Humanity has, but it can't shy away from the responsibility. I'd phrase it as Right and Wrong are matter of opinions, and it's critical that we discuss as many things as possible to come to some agreement on how we interact with each other.

If Theists don't like that idea, think of it this way: What better way would God have in seeing how His children grow than by having them learn to play nicely together, on their own? (I don't believe this, but it shows that, like the Jewish people believe, that God can both exist and be absent from our lives.)

The fact is, no one is coming to save us, and no one religion is ever going to have the power to enforce it's idea of morality on all of us. It's up to us. It always has been.

I agree with you.

[Compassionist]

Cold makes my chronic pain worse. That's why I avoid being cold as far as possible.

That doesn’t mean determinism or limited free will; it’s just a description of what “choice” is made.

I can't even prove to anyone that I exist, how could I possibly prove anything else to anyone? From your point of view, I could be a simulation or a hallucination or an illusion or a dream or a philosophical zombie or a real sentient human. How would you know which of these possibilities is actually true?

I can't even prove to myself that I have a body and that live on a planet in a universe. My perceptions of being in a body and living on a planet in a universe could be simulations or hallucinations or illusions or dreams or actual reality. I have no way to know. I am agnostic not just about the existence of Gods but also about the nature of reality.

Living things suffer and die. All the suffering, injustices, and deaths are sources of distress for me. That's why I think that if all living things were all-knowing and all-powerful we could protect ourselves from all suffering, injustices, and deaths. I don't even know if God or Gods exist, let alone know whether or not God or Gods are all-knowing and all-powerful.

I’ve already responded to this. Respond to my responses instead of just repeating this part. You still haven’t proven determinism, justified excluding limited free will from a logical option, what grounds an “injustice”.

How can God give us objective morality? Please explain. How would God even know anything objectively? How can anyone know anything objectively?

I have explained. I’ll repeat. Respond to my actual points instead of returning to your above refrain. God, as the creator of everything, would obviously know those things objectively. I know the objective meanings of every poem I write by the very nature of being the creator of them. God would know every objective fact of creation by the very nature of being the creator of them.

God would give us objective morality by designing our nature (that we are physical, what harms our body, what types of activities would be joyful to our minds, etc.) and by giving us a purpose within the world (as moral agents, having spheres of influence, etc.).

You have not yet shown me that my choices are free from my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. You have not yet shown me that my choices are free from the laws of physics. You have not yet shown me that you are real and not a simulation or a hallucination or an illusion or a dream or a philosophical zombie.

I don’t have to. You have brought in these things to support claims that you have made about right and wrong. You have the burden to support these things; I don’t have the burden to prove you wrong.

The word subjective means "existing in the mind". Your poems were produced in your mind, therefore, they have only subjective meanings. They do not have any objective meaning. If the Biblical God exists and if he created the universe then the universe is also subjective and all the rules created by the Biblical God are also subjective.

I have been trying to disprove solipsism for many years but I have failed. I have also been trying to prove that my perceived reality is actually real and not a simulation or a hallucination or an illusion or a dream but I have failed. If you can prove that solipsism is false and that my perceived reality is actually real, please do.

[Compassionist]

3. If you haven’t claimed that “harm” is how we objectively determine what is objectively unjust (as I understood you to have said, then what are you saying about injustice?

If you are saying harm is the objective measure, then respond to my critique that you seem to be using this as a synonym for “injustice” and that you need to show why harming others is objectively bad for an individual.

What does it matter if morality is subjective or objective?
Here's why I don't think it matters: Why does god say rape is wrong? Is he 1)Using the harm principle or 2)just saying rape is wrong because he says so? Meaning he could change his mind tomorrow, which is subjective. #1 right? Or is there some other reason(a #3 and a #4....) Im not aware of?

My concern is the method in which we use.......or the method in which god uses to determine morality. WHY does god say rape is wrong? WHY do humans say rape is wrong? Some people will say it's wrong because their god says so. No real reason other than "god says so". But atheists have reasons to say rape is wrong. It causes harm. And as a society we have to live with rules and regs.

I agree with you, too.

[Compassionist]

You clearly don't understand what I have said in my posts. It's not your fault. If I had your genes, your environments, your nutrients, and your experiences, I would be you and would think as you do and feel as you do and believe as you do and speak as you do and act as you do.

The Biblical God is evil and imaginary. I left Christianity because I read all the horrific and unjust and inaccurate and contradictory verses in the Bible.

If I could prevent all suffering, injustices, and deaths I would. If I could make all living things forever happy I would. I have done, am doing, and will do all that is determined by the laws of physics and my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. The same applies to you and all organisms. The inevitable has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen.

Our discussion here has nothing specifically to do with whether the biblical God or Christianity is accurate. I disagree with your beliefs about them, but that is irrelevant to this discussion and should be dropped for clarity’s sake. If I clearly don’t understand what you’ve said, then you have the chance to clarify. Below I am listing what I have understood you to have said and my critiques. Even if you don’t respond to my critiques, clarify what you have said so that I can correct my misunderstandings.

1. If you aren’t saying your examples prove determinism (what I understand you to have said), then what are you saying with those examples?

If you are saying you have proved determinism, then respond to my critique as to why you are just describing the choice made or just assuming determinism without any support.

2. If you haven’t claimed that “limited free will” is not a logical option (what I understood you to have said), then what are you saying about “limited free will”?

If you are saying it isn’t a logical option, then respond to my critique as to why it’s still a logical possibility and that you need to refute it.

3. If you haven’t claimed that “harm” is how we objectively determine what is objectively unjust (as I understood you to have said, then what are you saying about injustice?

If you are saying harm is the objective measure, then respond to my critique that you seem to be using this as a synonym for “injustice” and that you need to show why harming others is objectively bad for an individual.

4. If you aren’t saying that God couldn’t know anything objectively (as I’ve understood you to have said), then what are you saying?

If you are saying this, then I responded to that and now it’s your turn to respond to my direct response. The creator of something objectively knows that something, just by the very nature of creating it. Just like I know the objective meanings of every poem I’ve written. Do you agree? If not, why not? If you have no reason to disagree, then you should believe that God could know God’s creation objectively.

5. If you aren’t saying that God couldn’t give us objective morality (as I’ve understood you to have said), then what are you saying?

If you are saying this, then respond to my actual reasoning to the contrary. Objectivity would result by providing both (1) a design to human nature and (2) a purpose to humans in the world. God, unlike atheistic accounts of morality, could provide both of these. To rationally disagree, either show how God couldn’t provide (at least) one of these or how these two elements fail to provide objectivity.

If you simply respond with the same refrain as above (mere assertions of your opinion without any support), then you aren’t being rational. And you’ve said you are acting “emotionally” not rationally, but your posts in this thread have absolutely been rational attempts at explaining your “emotional” actions. You are clearly trying to come to rational beliefs on these issues and think your beliefs are rational. But, if you do not have answers to my above critiques, then you are holding on to your views by blind faith.

I will do my best to clarify what I mean. I wish you could connect to my consciousness directly as I find words to be inadequate for clear communication.

1. I am trying to understand my choices and the choices made by other non-living and living things. What causes cyclones and earthquakes? Are these events determined by the laws of physics acting on reality? Are the choices made by living things fundamentally different to the choices made by non-living things? Are the choices made by conscious living things e.g. cows fundamentally different from choices made by unconscious living things e.g. oak trees? Are the choices made by humans fundamentally different to the choices made by non-humans e.g. cows and lions and meerkats, etc? As far as I can tell, conscious biological organisms are affected by their genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. When I examine my own choices, I can see that they were determined by my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. It is harder to examine the choices made by others as I don't have direct experience of what it is like to be them. In fact, all the other beings could be philosophical zombies or hallucinations or illusions or simulations or dreams. Also, our choices are not free from the laws of physics.

2. I have said in a previous post that "limited free will" is an oxymoron. Either the will is free or it is not free. As far as I can tell, my will is not free from my genes, environments, nutrients, and experiences. Nor is it free from the laws of physics.

3. Harming a living thing is unjust. Helping a living thing is just. I did not say that it is an objective method. I don't see how I can possibly know anything objectively. I don't see how anyone can know anything objectively.

4 and 5. The word subjective means "existing in the mind". Your poems were produced in your mind, therefore, they have only subjective meanings. They do not have any objective meaning. If the Biblical God exists and if he created the universe then the universe is also subjective and all the rules created by the Biblical God are also subjective.

I have been trying to disprove solipsism for many years but I have failed. I have also been trying to prove that my perceived reality is actually real and not a simulation or a hallucination or an illusion or a dream but I have failed. If you can prove to me that solipsism is false and that my perceived reality is actually real, please do.

I am very tentative about my beliefs. I am 100% certain about very few things. There are only five things I am 100% certain about:
1. I am a sentient being.
2. I can't do an infinite number of things even though I want to do them desperately e.g. make all living things forever happy, go back in time and prevent all suffering, injustices, and deaths, make all living things all-loving, all-knowing, and all-powerful, etc.
3. I am constantly doing things I don't want to do e.g. sleeping, dreaming, aging, breathing, etc.
4. Mathematical truths e.g. 1+1=2
5. Logical truths e.g. all married people are married.

[JoeyKnothead]

...
If you can prove that solipsism is false and that my perceived reality is actually real, please do.

Take off your boots, and go kick a stump.

You'll find that stumps, your toes, and your pain are all real.

But I hear ya. It's a fascinating thing, knowing how our mind is really the closest we can get to confirming reality. This is especially troublesome for schizophrenics. I'd have days on the jobsite where I could swear someone was hollering at me, only to find out there wasn't even a sub on site. Then, as I'm sure you've gathered, there'd be days a sub would be hollering, and I'd dismiss it as the voices.

As it's said, perception is reality. We can only live as if we're experiencing it, whether it is or ain't real.

[Compassionist]

...
If you can prove that solipsism is false and that my perceived reality is actually real, please do.

Take off your boots, and go kick a stump.

You'll find that stumps, your toes, and your pain are all real.

But I hear ya. It's a fascinating thing, knowing how our mind is really the closest we can get to confirming reality. This is especially troublesome for schizophrenics. I'd have days on the jobsite where I could swear someone was hollering at me, only to find out there wasn't even a sub on site. Then, as I'm sure you've gathered, there'd be days a sub would be hollering, and I'd dismiss it as the voices.

As it's said, perception is reality. We can only live as if we're experiencing it, whether it is or ain't real.

Yes, indeed. I have a friend who has auditory and visual hallucinations. He has a hard time discerning what is real and what is not.

[Primaris]

[Replying to Compassionist in post #136]

Well, WHY does god say rape is wrong?
Is he:
1)Using the harm principle
OR
2)Just saying rape is wrong because he says so, which means he could change his mind tomorrow. It's subjective.