The speech of the upright!

[Bobcat]

Scripture says the words of the upright deliver them so Jesus’ was not needed for forgiveness of sin.

His death and resurrection were not to save anyone. It was His example of servitude to the Father that was needed so that those who continue in His teaching could be saved.

Jesus agrees with scripture that the words of the upright deliver them when He said;

“By your words you’ll be justified and by your words you’ll be condemned.”

“The words of the wicked are a deadly ambush, but the speech of the upright delivers them.”Proverbs 12:6

[Bobcat]

[Replying to Wootah in post #46]

No. It says whoever not Jesus. So whoever seeks the glory of the One who sent him is truthful and there is no unrighteousness in him.

So truth being God’s word makes those who use it, who spread it, righteous. These are those who are sent by God who seek His glory.

The works I do in the name of God bear witness for me.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah in post #46]

No. It says whoever not Jesus. So whoever seeks the glory of the One who sent him is truthful and there is no unrighteousness in him.

So truth being God’s word makes those who use it, who spread it, righteous. These are those who are sent by God who seek His glory.

The works I do in the name of God bear witness for me.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19 Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?”

Jesus is saying that he seeks the glory of the one who sent him and that is why they are trying to kill him.

In most books, we see ourselves in the hero. In the Bible, we should see ourselves in everyone else.

[Wootah]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #49]


Yep. This is the problem with the challenge 'if we can be upright without God, name one person of completely upright speech'.

Of course we can't, even if there was such a person. But - as you suggest - can the Christians (honestly - polemicals and politics aside) name one of theirs as being of completely upright speech? That is the problem - Nobody is of totally upright speech especially when they will use some doorstep -sales techniques as 'Have you never told a lie?' cue 'Yes, I've lied too, but I'm forgiven because of Jesus'. The point of sale being 'Convince them they are sick, then sell them the medicine'.

The secularist side being - of course - as it always was: 'No, we are not perfect. We are what we are and we try to make the best of it and - yes - with moral and social ideals up to the saintly, but knowing they are ideals, not divine promises, but not until we are dead and can no longer ask for a refund'.

No Christian would claim to be upright.

https://biblehub.com/mark/2-17.htm
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #49]


Yep. This is the problem with the challenge 'if we can be upright without God, name one person of completely upright speech'.

Of course we can't, even if there was such a person. But - as you suggest - can the Christians (honestly - polemicals and politics aside) name one of theirs as being of completely upright speech? That is the problem - Nobody is of totally upright speech especially when they will use some doorstep -sales techniques as 'Have you never told a lie?' cue 'Yes, I've lied too, but I'm forgiven because of Jesus'. The point of sale being 'Convince them they are sick, then sell them the medicine'.

The secularist side being - of course - as it always was: 'No, we are not perfect. We are what we are and we try to make the best of it and - yes - with moral and social ideals up to the saintly, but knowing they are ideals, not divine promises, but not until we are dead and can no longer ask for a refund'.

No Christian would claim to be upright.

https://biblehub.com/mark/2-17.htm
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Ok. so it is pointless and irrelevant at best (a cheat and swindle -apologetic at worst) to demand that they point to one upright non Christian when there is no upright Christian, either (1).

Of course upright Speech is a bit different. One suspects that...well well, yet again the Theist to English dictionary helps:

"The Truth" translates as Faith. "Forgiveness" translates as faith, "Logic' (aka God's logic') translates as faith, Real science translates as Faith and Upright Speech translates as Faith or talking Faith. Would you like to give a different meaning for Upright speech? Or ...sorry .... Op says the speech of the Upright which isn't quite the same thing.

(1) mind, I don't want to be tricksy, precious. I might guess that you lost the thread of the discussion and just picked up a Biblebased blocker, unaware that it clobbered the initial argument. I don't hold you to it; you can go back, check the argument and repost.

[Bobcat]

[Replying to Wootah in post #52]

Jesus is not speaking only of himself. He says whoever meaning anyone!

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah in post #52]

Jesus is not speaking only of himself. He says whoever meaning anyone!

You are reading yourself into that small sentence when the wider paragraph and context is Jesus.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Wootah in post #46]

No. It says whoever not Jesus. So whoever seeks the glory of the One who sent him is truthful and there is no unrighteousness in him.

So truth being God’s word makes those who use it, who spread it, righteous. These are those who are sent by God who seek His glory.

The works I do in the name of God bear witness for me.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19 Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?”

Jesus is saying that he seeks the glory of the one who sent him and that is why they are trying to kill him.

In most books, we see ourselves in the hero. In the Bible, we should see ourselves in everyone else.

I'm going to say something here. Aside from the bemused amusement of watching two true believers slingling cherrypicked Biblequotes at each other in support of your opinions, how do you think this looks like Upright Speech or the speech of the upright? It looks like both on you have religious opinions about how one should think and live and believe and you look to the Bible to support it. What do you think of the other person? That he's reading the bible wrong? You can't do it by selecting a Biblequote that seems to match your opinion.

Do you think that Jesusgod is inspiring the truth into your head? I think you both do. But obviously one of you is wrong. I'd say from the process of pelting each other with Biblequotes that neither of you have it right. It does not look like upright speech to me, nor indeed the speech of the Upright.

You won't of course but I'm suggesting you might step back from this position of Biblebased position of self -righteousness and ask yourselves just why you think you are doing it right.

[JoeyKnothead]

I'm going to say something here. Aside from the bemused amusement of watching two true believers slingling cherrypicked Biblequotes at each other in support of your opinions, how do you think this looks like Upright Speech or the speech of the upright? It looks like both on you have religious opinions about how one should think and live and believe and you look to the Bible to support it. What do you think of the other person? That he's reading the bible wrong? You can't do it by selecting a Biblequote that seems to match your opinion.

Do you think that Jesusgod is inspiring the truth into your head? I think you both do. But obviously one of you is wrong. I'd say from the process of pelting each other with Biblequotes that neither of you have it right. It does not look like upright speech to me, nor indeed the speech of the Upright.

You won't of course but I'm suggesting you might step back from this position of Biblebased position of self -righteousness and ask yourselves just why you think you are doing it right.

Well said. Whenever I see Christians arguing with one another about "what it really means", it just confirms for me the subjective, non-fact nature of religious / Christian belief.

God's so smart, yet he relies on fallible humans to spread his message

[Wootah]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #57]

I'd urge you to not assume anything about Bob or I or anyone. What does your brain tell you when you read the passage we are discussing?

[Bobcat]

[Replying to Wootah in post #46]

No. It says whoever not Jesus. So whoever seeks the glory of the One who sent him is truthful and there is no unrighteousness in him.

So truth being God’s word makes those who use it, who spread it, righteous. These are those who are sent by God who seek His glory.

The works I do in the name of God bear witness for me.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19 Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?”

Jesus is saying that he seeks the glory of the one who sent him and that is why they are trying to kill him.

In most books, we see ourselves in the hero. In the Bible, we should see ourselves in everyone else.

I'm going to say something here. Aside from the bemused amusement of watching two true believers slingling cherrypicked Biblequotes at each other in support of your opinions, how do you think this looks like Upright Speech or the speech of the upright? It looks like both on you have religious opinions about how one should think and live and believe and you look to the Bible to support it. What do you think of the other person? That he's reading the bible wrong? You can't do it by selecting a Biblequote that seems to match your opinion.

Do you think that Jesusgod is inspiring the truth into your head? I think you both do. But obviously one of you is wrong. I'd say from the process of pelting each other with Biblequotes that neither of you have it right. It does not look like upright speech to me, nor indeed the speech of the Upright.

You won't of course but I'm suggesting you might step back from this position of Biblebased position of self -righteousness and ask yourselves just why you think you are doing it right.

I’m not Christian. I am from a higher realm. The spirit of the LORD is upon me, because He has anointed me. He has sent me to deliver the good news to the poor, to give sight to the blind and release to the prisoners.