How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2221

Post by otseng »

Some more comments on the the experiments by Borrini and Garlaschelli...

Critique by Alfonso Sánchez Hermosilla:
The article presents numerous formal and conceptual errors that deprive it of scientific
credibility.

First of all, neither author is a forensic physician, so they lack the experience and knowledge
necessary to successfully deal with any kind of investigation with human blood stains.

The "experiments " have been conducted on a living and healthy human being, without
traumatic wounds of any kind and with a dummy vaguely reminiscent of a human trunk. But
if it is not done with a living human being who has suffered the same wounds and the same
chronology as the Man of the Shroud, nor with a corpse that meets the same requirements,
then the experiment does NOT reproduce, not even approximately, the circumstances in
which the blood stains originated.

Moreover, the voluntary subject on which the experiment was performed had no hair on the
skin of the forearms, at least this is what can be seen in the photographs of the article, while
the Man of the Shroud maybe had it or not. We do not have scientific data on this point. But
if he had them, the capillary stems are obstacles to the passage of any fluid, modifying its
trajectory. This fact was not taken into consideration.

The experiment was conducted with human blood from a donor, anticoagulated and kept
cold, and flows through the needle of a cannula, while the "volunteer " is immobile. But he
does not have living blood flowing from an open wound and a pulsating heartbeat, and he is
not even a person moving, fighting for a restless and agitated breathing. It is clearly seen that
such agitated movement to achieve a breath while nailed to a cross must have happened in
the case of the Man of the Shroud.

The physical qualities of anticoagulated blood are very different from those of non-
anticoagulated live blood, in particular its viscosity and surface tension, that is to say that its
behaviour as a fluid is very different in both cases.

On the other hand, the physical qualities of anticoagulated blood are also very different from
those of cadaveric blood. Which, in turn, is very different from living blood.

But also the blood of the Man of the Shroud was pathological, due to the bleeding suffered,
and its pH was acid, a consequence of asphyxiation, so its behavior is also very different
from that of live blood and, allow me to say this, healthy.

If this were not enough, from the wound on the side there was not only a cadaveric blood
flow, but also post-mortem blood clots, pleural fluid, pericardial fluid (both following the
scourging), and the fluid of pulmonary edema, due to asphyxiation. All these fluids are
unlikely to come out mixed homogeneously. Most likely, they did it in a heterogeneous way.
All this was not reproduced in the "experiment ".

The general public, and also many "experts ", believe that human corpses do not bleed. This is
not true. When there are deep wounds, the cadavers have post-mortem hemorrhages,
especially if moved, and the body of the Man of the Shroud was moved and manipulated,
then bled profusely from his wounds and his natural orifices. And that blood was cadaveric
blood, not living blood, not even chemically anticoagulated blood.

The "blood belt " was not produced by the flow of blood between the corpse and the cloth of
the Shroud, but while placing the body on the linen, the corpse bled and released a trail of
blood that perfectly reproduces the relative path between the corpse and the textile material
that absorbed this blood. This fact, too, was not taken into consideration.

CONCLUSIONS

The experiment does NOT even remotely reproduce the conditions in which the blood stains
of the Turin Shroud have occurred. In these circumstances, the conclusions of the article are
TOTALLY devoid of scientific value.

The authors of the article, given their inexperience and lack of the minimum necessary
knowledge, have committed serious errors in planning and interpreting the results of their
"experiment ".

The article is not suitable for publication in a specialised scientific journal; it is assumed that
people who have assessed the suitability of the article should have the necessary knowledge
and experience. In the case in question, either they do not possess it, or have ignored it for
unknown reasons.
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/Hermosilla%20EN.pdf

Critique excerpts by Robert Rucker:
The details of crucifixion are poorly understood. This is acknowledged in the third paragraph of
Ref. 1 where part of the reason for doing the experiments was to "help to understand how this
ancient death penalty practice - of which almost nothing is known - was performed. " Even if all
details of a person's crucifixion, transport, and burial were known, a human body and its blood
flow during and after crucifixion would still be extremely difficult to simulate correctly. It
would probably require real blood, without an anticoagulant, flowing over real human skin, both
in the condition that they would be in during and after crucifixion. The flow rate of the blood
must be correctly simulated. The effects of dehydration, sweat, dirt, and swelling would also
have to be properly simulated. Crucifixion would probably cause severe dehydration, which
would significantly affect blood viscosity and coagulation rates. All these things would have to
be known to properly model the situation. And the orientation of all parts of the body during
crucifixion, transport, and burial would have to be known and simulated. Due to these extreme
difficulties, any attempt to simulate the conditions of a body and its blood flow during and after
crucifixion must be very approximate. The experimental procedures in Ref. 1 are a good
example of this. The main problems with the procedures in Ref. 1 appear to be the following:

Synthetic blood or human blood containing an anticoagulant and a preservative would not
have the same viscosity or flow behavior as human blood without an anticoagulant or
dilution by a preservative. The blood used in the experiments appears to be much too
runny. The evidence on the Shroud (Figure 1) indicates that the real blood, due to
crucifixion and without an anticoagulant, is much more viscous (Ref. 2) than the blood
used in the experiments (Figure 7 of Ref. 1).

Blood flow on human skin containing pores, hair, wrinkles, and swelling as well as the
products of crucifixion such as sweat, dirt, and dried blood products would probably not
flow the same as on the clean smooth plastic of the mannequin. This should especially
apply to the point at which blood would flow or drip off skin compared to plastic.

The blood flow rates were not the same. Compressing a sponge onto the side of a plastic
mannequin, with the blood containing an anticoagulant and a preservative, would not
produce the same flow rate as a spear thrust into the side of a dead man, with the blood
not containing an anticoagulant or preservative.

The angles were not correct. A hand flat on a table does not simulate a hand in a vertical
position, and a person standing up probably does not simulate the shape of a person's
body during crucifixion.

Regarding the nail through the wrist, only blood flow from the back or exit wound was
considered. Blood flow from the front or entrance wound was not considered.

The plastic mannequin torso had no arms, whereas the body as it was wrapped in the
Shroud in the horizontal position had bare arms next to the side wound. The arms could
have affected the blood flow from the side wound.

Experiments were only performed on the blood flow from the back of the left hand and
from the side wound. Experiments were not performed on blood flow from the front of
the left hand, the head, the feet, or the scourge marks.

The alleged discrepancies assume that the blood stains that show on the forearm were due
to bleeding from the back (exit) wounds at the wrists, and that the blood stains on the
lower back were due to bleeding from the side wound. No evidence is given in Ref. 1
that these assumptions are valid. If these assumptions are not valid, then there is no basis
for claiming any discrepancies. There are other possible options for the source of the
blood that now shows on the forearm and the lower back.
https://www.academia.edu/39045416/Evalu ... d_of_Turin

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2222

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 2:58 pm If you can beat the evidence of bas-relief imaging, it would go a long way toward clinching your case.
Let me summarize what I've posted so far on bas-relief imaging...
otseng wrote: Wed Apr 05, 2023 7:59 amI don't see any attempt in Costanzo's experiment to replicate the blood stains. Also doubt the experiment accounts for all the image features found on the TS. In other words, yes, he attempted to make a replica of the TS, but failed to fully replicate it.
otseng wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 5:20 am If he used paint in his bas-relief, there is no evidence of paint used to form the image. If he used a scorch technique, then it would fluoresce under ultraviolet light imaging, but this is not detected on the shroud except for the 1532 burn marks and the poker holes. Also, by pressing the cloth onto a statue, when it is pulled off and pressed flat, it would have major distortions, which we do not see on the shroud. Though it might have a photo-negative effect, it would not have 3-D encoding. Also doubtful his image is only on the top few fibrils of the cloth. Further, he failed to even try to simulate the blood stains. These are just a few of the problems that come to mind with his claim.
otseng wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:31 am
otseng wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:44 pm There is no stain on the TS. The coloration is only due to dehydration-oxidation of the linen, much like when linen is exposed to light. Also, is it only affecting the top one or two fibrils in the cloth? Is it producing a half-tone effect?
"Although no single theory adequately accounts for all of the observations, it is
concluded that the image is the result of some cellulose oxidation-dehydration reaction
rather than an applied pigment."
https://www.shroud.com/pdfs/Physics%20C ... 0OCRsm.pdf

For attempts to do a bas-relief through scorching, evidence is against this as well.
One of the most important arguments against the scorch is related to UV fluorescence. It is well
known that the UV/Vis fluorescence photography of the TS shows that the body image does not
fluoresce while the light scorches emit a reddish fluorescence. Miller and Pellicori performed several
experiments using the same equipment as in Turin.

The fundamental mechanisms involved in color production by any kind of scorch are clear. At a given
temperature above a certain threshold, the color of the portions of fibers in narrow contact with the
hot material immediately begins to change. In the same time, the heat propagates along the fiber
and, probably, between adjacent fibers. But the key parameter is the very low diffusivity of linen:
there is a steep color gradient. In this sense, scorching can be seen as an almost perfect “contact-
only” image formation process. No contact, no color.
The Turin shroud image is continuous: on the face, all the anatomical parts are seen, including for
example the sides of the nostrils. There is no “hole” (taking into account the “banding effect”). Of
course the lack of image in some areas (the areas surrounding the hands for instance) does not prove
that the TS image is a contact-only image. Thus, a forger using the scorching technique would have to
put the linen in contact with all the parts of the bas-relief.
The color of the TS image fibers is everywhere the same: a pale yellow. This does correspond to what
I called a very light or a light scorch. This is obtained on a small surface at low temperature.
At thread level, the TS image color distribution is continuous: all the threads are colored. Because the
scorch mechanism is a contact-only mechanism, this can only be obtained by an intimate contact, i.e.
a relatively high contact pressure.
Consequently, in theory, in order to obtain an image resembling the TS image, a forger would have to
use a bas-relief, to heat it uniformly in a narrow range of low temperature, to apply it firmly on all
parts of the bas-relief and to control the contact pressure and the contact-time.
Let’s assume that after some trials, he would have succeeded in this task. Even in this case the above
table shows the fundamental differences with the TS image characteristics as seen through the
microscope.
The main arguments ruling out the scorch hypothesis can be summarized as follows:
- It is simply impossible to obtain an “image” made only of pale yellow fibers.
- A color gradient between the horizontal highest part and the oblique lateral parts of the threads is
always observed and particularly obvious in very light and light scorched areas.
22- If on a given flat area a faint yellow superficial color can be obtained, the color distribution does not
match that of the TS image: most of the threads are colorless and the gradient at thread level is
obvious. Applying a higher contact pressure result in a color distribution more uniform (more threads
are colored), a less obvious gradient (although detectable) and finally an image distribution that is
more similar to that of the TS image, although clearly different. But in this case, several fibers at the
topmost parts of these threads are burned. A higher contact pressure is the only way to obtain
shading. Even with a one millimeter high relief (the nose for instance), the contrast with the adjacent
parts is much too high with respect to the TS image (as shown by Jackson) and this fact is explained
by the observations through the microscope.
- the consequence is that a light scorch does not show truly the halftone effect observed on the TS
image: in the more colored areas, shading is not obtained by a higher density of only pale yellowed
fibers, but by a higher density of more colored fibers, with a wide range of colors: from brown-dark
burned fibers to few pale yellow fibers with the gradient described above.
- No striation or bundles of more colored fibers are seen in any scorched areas.
- The “signature” of a scorch is found in all kind of scorches, even in very light and light scorches:
even at the lowest temperature, some protruding burned fibers are observed and many small
opaque brown to dark burned pieces of fibers are easily found everywhere in the sticky-tape
experiments. This was not the case for the direct observations with the microscope on the Shroud in
1978 or on the sticky-tapes.
All these differences are related to the fundamental properties of color distribution resulting from
the scorching of any linen fabric, i.e. the fact that a scorch is a contact-only mechanism associated
with the very low heat conductivity of linen and the spatial geometry of the fabric. This is inevitable.
The TS image is not a scorch, even a light scorch. In fact, this old hypothesis is very easy to rule out
definitively as the body image formation mechanism with some basic experiments and a microscope.
https://shroudofturin.files.wordpress.c ... per-en.pdf
Questions left unresolved with the bas-relief:

If the cloth was pressed against the body, there should be severe wrapping distortion. How was this avoided?
Since the image is only the result of fibers that have oxidized/dehydrated, how was this achieved?
How was a negative effect achieved and why even try to produce a negative image?
Why are the ears missing?
Why is there no imaging on the top of the head?
How was half-tone imaging achieved?
Why should there be 3-D information encoding through a bas-relief?
Why should there be x-ray imaging effects?
Why is there imaging on the back side of the cloth?
How were the blood stains formed?
Why are there some blood stains outside the body image?
Who did the bas-relief?
If it was a work of art, then why is the TS not recognized by the art community?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2223

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #2222
Let me summarize what I've posted so far on bas-relief imaging...
Why go to the trouble of summarizing what you've posted so far when what you've posted so far doesn't answer the simple question I've been asking? None of the folderol about blood patterns and scorching amounts to anything if there isn't an answer to that simple [but critical] question.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2224

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 9:05 amWhy go to the trouble of summarizing what you've posted so far when what you've posted so far doesn't answer the simple question I've been asking? None of the folderol about blood patterns and scorching amounts to anything if there isn't an answer to that simple [but critical] question.
I went through that trouble because you stated:
Athetotheist wrote: Sat Apr 08, 2023 2:58 pm If you can beat the evidence of bas-relief imaging, it would go a long way toward clinching your case. You could dump it in quick and go right back to your discourse.
Since you claim a bas-relief technique explains the TS, then you'll need to address these issues.

For myself, I haven't even claimed an imaging technique yet, so there's no need for me to back up anything. However, when I do propose an imaging technique, I will address all the questions I had posed.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2225

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #2224
Since you claim a bas-relief technique explains the TS, then you'll need to address these issues.

I haven't even claimed an imaging technique yet, so there's no need for me to back up anything. However, when I do propose an imaging technique, I will address all the questions I had posed.
There could be any number of explanations for the image, but an explanation for the absence of the image where it should be would have to be pretty good. Until that's explained, nothing else needs explaining.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2226

Post by JoeyKnothead »

We seem to be getting a lot of arguments about how the shroud image could not be the product of human or natural forces, regardless of a multitude of explanations about it.

So let's ask, how can we confirm it got there by supernatural forces?

What were those forces? How might we confirm those forces are the product of a particular god?
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2227

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun Apr 09, 2023 3:28 pm [Replying to otseng in post #2224
Since you claim a bas-relief technique explains the TS, then you'll need to address these issues.

I haven't even claimed an imaging technique yet, so there's no need for me to back up anything. However, when I do propose an imaging technique, I will address all the questions I had posed.
There could be any number of explanations for the image, but an explanation for the absence of the image where it should be would have to be pretty good. Until that's explained, nothing else needs explaining.
There will be no explanation that can explain everything, but the most plausible explanation is the one that can explain the most. I've listed features that needs explaining. Since you claim the bas-relief technique is how the TS was created, then you'll need to explain how these features are addressed using bas-relief. If you cannot, that's fine. But you cannot then claim if there's a single feature I cannot explain, then the bas-relief is the most reasonable explanation, given there's an entire list that is unaddressed by bas-relief.

Let's also put it this way. If the TS is the work of an artist, all these questions should easily be answered. It's not like the artist would've been superhuman and be able to do things we cannot understand. Shouldn't it be easy to provide a naturalistic explanation for all the features of the shroud? If not, why would that be the case?

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2228

Post by JoeyKnothead »

otseng wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 12:26 am Let's also put it this way. If the TS is the work of an artist, all these questions should easily be answered. It's not like the artist would've been superhuman and be able to do things we cannot understand. Shouldn't it be easy to provide a naturalistic explanation for all the features of the shroud? If not, why would that be the case?
If it's the work of a god, then surely it'd be easy to show such is the case. Right?

The thing with rational thought is, where we don't know something, we don't default to the gods as an explanation.

We see you're well versed in declaring what the shroud ain't...
So now just go on and show us what it is.

Go ahead, show us all how a god made this image on this cloth.
Show us the image is that of the biblical Jesus, for which we have no contemporary images to compare.
Show us the alleged blood is the same type, et cetera as Jesus', for which we have none for comparison.

Surely God wouldn't leave you hanging here, in front of him and everybody. Right?
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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2229

Post by otseng »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Mon Apr 10, 2023 5:04 am If it's the work of a god, then surely it'd be easy to show such is the case. Right?
The TS is the most scientifically studied artifact in human history, so it will take a long time to go through all the evidence and arguments. In terms of providing evidence, it is easy to find and present. In terms of how long it'll take to present it, it'll be hard.
The thing with rational thought is, where we don't know something, we don't default to the gods as an explanation.
Where's all the rational thought from skeptics? Rather, it's been mostly fallacious arguments by the skeptics and not willing to back up their claims with evidence.

Who said I'm defaulting to God? Only when there are no viable naturalistic explanations will non-natural explanations be entertained. So, please provide evidence of a viable naturalistic explanation of the TS.
We see you're well versed in declaring what the shroud ain't...
So now just go on and show us what it is.
That's what I'm doing, but it will take a long time to present all the evidence and arguments before I reach my final argument.
Go ahead, show us all how a god made this image on this cloth.
Do you concede there are no viable naturalistic explanations?
Surely God wouldn't leave you hanging here, in front of him and everybody. Right?
Who's the one hanging? I've been providing evidence and will be continuing to do so. As I've mentioned, it's doubtful I'm even halfway through with presenting all the evidence.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #2230

Post by otseng »

Getting back to McCrone...

Here is McCrone's theory of how the TS was created:
These results suggest that a talented artist carefully
studied the New Testament, sources of information on
the crucifixion, and other artists' paintings of Christ.
He then thought about a shroud image in terms of a
dark tomb. Instead of the usual portrait with normal
light and shadow, he assumed that the image could only
be produced by body contact with the cloth. He
painted directly on the cloth to image the body-contact
points (forehead, bridge of the nose, cheekbones,
mustache, beard, etc., over the entire body, front, and
back). This automatically creates a negative image;
areas that normally catch available light and appear
bright, like the bridge of the nose, would instead all be
dark. However, those dark areas appear bright on a
photographic negative. He decorated the body with
blood stains as required by the New Testament de-
scriptions. These he rendered dark on the Shroud,
hence they form a photographic positive image super-
imposed on the otherwise negative Shroud body image.

The Shroud artist used a style of painting and
painting materials common in Europe during the 14th
century. A chapter entitled "Practice of Painting
Generally During the Fourteenth Century" in an 1847
book' by Sir Charles Locke Eastlake entitled Methods
and Materials of Painting of the Great Schools and
Masters covers precisely the Shroud-like images. He
refers to the process as the English or German mode
of painting faint images ("grisaille", a light monochrome
image). As Eastlake writes: "...After this linen is
painted, its thinness is no more obscured than if it had
not been painted at all, as the colours have no body."
"The peculiarity of the English method appears to have
been its absolute transparency." "A manuscript of the
time contains directions for the preparation of trans-
parent colours for painting on cloth." Eastlake con-
tinues: "The Anglo-German method appears, from the
description, to have been in all respects like modern
water-colour painting except that fine cloth, duly
prepared, was used instead of paper."
http://www.mccroneinstitute.org/uploads ... 560933.pdf

There are many problems with his theory which reveals he did not really understand the shroud.

"These results suggest that a talented artist carefully
studied the New Testament, sources of information on
the crucifixion, and other artists' paintings of Christ."

Even with studying the NT, there is actually not much details on what happened during the passion week. What is interesting is the shroud contains more information than what is described in the gospels.

There is not a lot of detailed information on crucifixion in textual records. There is even less in archaeological records. Yet the shroud provides evidence never seen elsewhere on how scourging and crucifixions occurred.

The shroud deviates in many ways with artist paintings, esp in the details. The TS deviates with the location of the wounds in the hands, the depiction of the crown of thorns, the scourge marks in the front of the body, scourge marks from shoulders to feet, not wearing any clothes. Also, if it was painted, the TS is the first example of hyperrealistic art.

"He then thought about a shroud image in terms of a dark tomb."

Not sure what he means by this. Nothing can be seen in a dark tomb.

"Instead of the usual portrait with normal
light and shadow, he assumed that the image could only
be produced by body contact with the cloth."

Since the cloth is draped over the body, there are few contact points. So, painting the image of points of contact with the cloth would have little imaging.

"This automatically creates a negative image;
areas that normally catch available light and appear
bright, like the bridge of the nose, would instead all be
dark."

Why would an artist have painted the first negative image that would proceed by hundreds of years the first actual negative image? How can anyone imagine to paint a technique that wasn't even invented yet? Even today, nobody paints a hyperrealistic negative image. It doesn't make any sense for someone in the medieval ages to paint one before it was even conceived.

"He decorated the body with
blood stains as required by the New Testament de-
scriptions."

This would not be correct because there are no body imaging under the blood stains. The blood stains would've had to been on the cloth first.

"These he rendered dark on the Shroud,
hence they form a photographic positive image super-
imposed on the otherwise negative Shroud body image."

The blood stains on the TS are reddish, not dark.

"The Shroud artist used a style of painting and
painting materials common in Europe during the 14th
century."

The materials might be available then, but the artistic style is completely different. There was nobody that could paint hyperrealistically at that time.

"A chapter entitled "Practice of Painting
Generally During the Fourteenth Century" in an 1847
book' by Sir Charles Locke Eastlake entitled Methods
and Materials of Painting of the Great Schools and
Masters covers precisely the Shroud-like images."

Does the book mention the TS as an example of such a technique? Highly doubtful, since McCrone does not quote from the book that the TS used such a technique. If what McCrone claims is true, then why would this book not mention the TS? Why does any art book fail to mention the TS?

"As Eastlake writes: "...After this linen is
painted, its thinness is no more obscured than if it had
not been painted at all, as the colours have no body."

The STURP team concluded it was not painted. Further, the water and fire damage over the years of the TS did not cause any image running, distortion, or smears. So, there's no way it could've been painted.

"A manuscript of the
time contains directions for the preparation of trans-
parent colours for painting on cloth."

Further evidence it is not painted is the coloration is only on the top-most fibers. The superficiality of the coloration is what contributes to the "transparent color." How can one paint individual fibers?

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