nobspeople wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: ↑Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am
The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?
While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.
Miles wrote: ↑Fri Apr 21, 2023 2:28 pm
Then what is one to do with:
Proverbs 30:5-6 Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Here's other translations:
(KJV)
Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
(Logos)
For all the words of God are tried in the fire, and He defends those that reverence Him.
(NASB)
Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
(YLT)
Every saying of God is tried, A shield He is to those trusting in Him.
(NET)
Every word of God is purified; he is like a shield for those who take refuge in him.
The transliteral version would be:
Every word of God is ṣārap̄
Yes, isn't it interesting that gods every word can be so many different things. Of the 56 Bibles I checked Proverbs 30:5 comes in almost 20 different flavors.
Proverbs 30:5 "Every word of God / /is/has/. . .
pure
tried
fire tried
tried and true
true
been refined
proven
proved
been proven true
proves true
god keeps every promise he makes
can be trusted
flawless
a shield
a shield set afire
tested
will be put to the test
purified
perfect
How does one choose? Or doesn't it matter what every god's word is?
1. The belief in biblical inerrancy varies widely among Christians. In a 2014 Pew Research Center survey, 59% of white evangelicals said that the Bible is the literal word of God and should be taken as is, while only 19% of mainline Protestants agreed with this statement. Meanwhile, 24% of Catholics said that the Bible is a book written by men and is not the word of God (Pew Research Center, 2015).
2. Christians' beliefs about the end times also vary widely. In a 2010 survey by the Pew Research Center, 41% of Americans said they believe Jesus Christ will return to Earth by 2050, while 46% said they did not believe this would happen. Of those who believed in the Second Coming, 58% said they believed it would happen before 2050, while 41% said they did not know when it would happen (Pew Research Center, 2010).
3. Many Christians believe in supernatural phenomena. A 2009 survey by the Pew Research Center found that 68% of Americans who identified as Christian believed in the devil, 70% believed in hell, and 72% believed in angels. Additionally, 36% of Christians said they had personally experienced or witnessed a miraculous healing (Pew Research Center, 2009).
4. Christians' attitudes toward homosexuality have shifted over time. In a 2007 Pew Research Center survey, 58% of white evangelical Protestants said that homosexuality should be discouraged by society, while only 27% of mainline Protestants and 22% of Catholics agreed with this statement. However, by 2019, the percentage of white evangelicals who said that homosexuality should be discouraged had fallen to 44%, while the percentage of mainline Protestants and Catholics who held this view had fallen to 10% and 16%, respectively (Pew Research Center, 2019).
5. Beliefs about evolution: According to a 2019 survey by the Pew Research Center, 88% of atheists and 76% of agnostics say that humans have evolved over time, while only 57% of white evangelical Protestants and 38% of black Protestants hold this belief. In contrast, 80% of Catholics and 68% of white mainline Protestants say that humans have evolved over time (Pew Research Center, 2019).
6. Beliefs about the nature of God: A 2018 survey by the Barna Group found that while 97% of Christians overall believe in a God who is all-knowing, all-powerful, and perfect, there are differences among different groups. For example, only 84% of mainline Protestants believe in a God who is all-knowing, while 99% of evangelicals and 98% of Pentecostals hold this belief. Additionally, while 93% of evangelicals and 90% of Pentecostals believe in a God who is all-powerful, only 72% of mainline Protestants share this belief (Barna Group, 2018).
7. Beliefs about the importance of religion in daily life: According to a 2019 survey by the Pew Research Center, 70% of white evangelicals say that religion is very important in their lives, while only 28% of religiously unaffiliated Americans say the same. Meanwhile, 55% of Catholics and 45% of white mainline Protestants say that religion is very important in their lives (Pew Research Center, 2019).
8. Beliefs about the afterlife: A 2020 survey by the Pew Research Center found that 72% of Christians overall believe in heaven, but there are differences among different groups. For example, 87% of evangelical Protestants and 77% of black Protestants believe in heaven, compared to 63% of white mainline Protestants and 47% of religiously unaffiliated Americans. Meanwhile, 40% of Christians overall believe in hell, but this belief is most prevalent among black Protestants (82%) and evangelical Protestants (76%) (Pew Research Center, 2020).
So, apparently, we are to trust the Bible - then come up with our own interpretation to beat other people over the head with. But, the lesson is, don't trust the person interpreting the Bible.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
Miles wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:45 am
How does one choose? Or doesn't it matter what every god's word is?
Another illustration of the misunderstanding of inerrancy. Inerrancy has nothing to do with translations, but only the autographs.
According to the Chicago statement:
We affirm that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy.
boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:38 am
So, apparently, we are to trust the Bible - then come up with our own interpretation to beat other people over the head with. But, the lesson is, don't trust the person interpreting the Bible.
End times, supernatural healing, homosexuality, evolution, omni- characteristics of God, daily religious practice, heaven and hell are all interesting topics, but none of them compare in importance to what we're discussing now - the death and resurrection of Jesus. Christians can pretty much have any belief in those things you listed. But if a Christian denies the death and resurrection of Jesus, then they are not a Biblical Christian.
otseng wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:41 am
One of the most important doctrines in Christianity is the resurrection of Jesus and is one of the beliefs necessary for salvation.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Also, if Jesus was not resurrected, then all of Christianity is undermined. If the resurrection of Jesus is falsified, then Christianity is falsified.
1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
These 7 factors pretty much conclusively points to Jesus of Nazareth on the shroud. In terms of textual evidence, there is nobody else that is even a remote match.
I'll be going to the next topic to discuss the features of the cloth.
boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:38 am
So, apparently, we are to trust the Bible - then come up with our own interpretation to beat other people over the head with. But, the lesson is, don't trust the person interpreting the Bible.
End times, supernatural healing, homosexuality, evolution, omni- characteristics of God, daily religious practice, heaven and hell are all interesting topics, but none of them compare in importance to what we're discussing now - the death and resurrection of Jesus. Christians can pretty much have any belief in those things you listed. But if a Christian denies the death and resurrection of Jesus, then they are not a Biblical Christian.
otseng wrote: ↑Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:41 am
One of the most important doctrines in Christianity is the resurrection of Jesus and is one of the beliefs necessary for salvation.
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Also, if Jesus was not resurrected, then all of Christianity is undermined. If the resurrection of Jesus is falsified, then Christianity is falsified.
1 Corinthians 15:17
And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
It's your interpretation that it's important, since Paul said you'd be the most pitiful person on Earth if it wasn't real. But, most of the world doesn't share your interpretation; they don't share your belief that the Bible is a reliable account of much at all. Like people feel about the Book of Mormon.
But you know the TS, if proven false doesn't disprove the mythologial claim, and it the TS is proved to be inconclusive that doesn't prove the myth.
I simply disagree that proving or disproving Christianity is important - or at least - no more important than proving or disproving every other religion on Earth, ever. At some point, we grow up and realize proving or disproving Santa isn't important.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm
These 7 factors pretty much conclusively points to Jesus of Nazareth on the shroud. In terms of textual evidence, there is nobody else that is even a remote match.
It's not likely that an artist would produce a rendering of the crucified Jesus without those features, since said artist would be keeping to the Christian narrative.
Miles wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:45 am
How does one choose? Or doesn't it matter what every god's word is?
Another illustration of the misunderstanding of inerrancy. Inerrancy has nothing to do with translations, but only the autographs.
According to the Chicago statement:
We affirm that inspiration, strictly speaking, applies only to the autographic text of Scripture, which in the providence of God can be ascertained from available manuscripts with great accuracy.
Strictly speaking, inerrancy does not apply to translations.
Just to note, I didn't bring up the issue of inerrancy; although, I'm quite fine with the notion that no Bible today is inerrant, but filled with errors, glitches, blunders, falsehoods, fallacies, and absurdities. I'm simply pointing out that it's interesting that god's every word can be so many different things. And because there are so many contradictory translations to choose from it's foolish to take any single translation as being thee correct one——although I do have my favorites. Problem is . . . .
Where is the Christian god when you need him! He left a mess and doesn't seem to care.
And to note your remark about autographic text; what Scripture is one to look to that has any autographic inerrancy? From what I've read there are no surviving autographic textss of any scripture, which leaves everyone relying on interpretations of versions of spurious accounts of oral reports of Who Shot John. Lacking any such original text by which to check the validity of a translator's choice of words it appears that nothing in the Bible can be taken as being true. Perhaps the gist of a story can be assumed to be correct, but that's about all. None of the particulars, even quite extensive particulars, merit acceptance.
boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 5:38 am
...
But, the lesson is, don't trust the person interpreting the Bible.
I don't trust the bible. That eliminates the interpreter before he opens him up the first page of it.
It's odd how folks consider their singular take on an entity that can't be shown to exist, nor to have a thinker to do it, would have an opinion on anything. And don't it rip your best britches, them two agree.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
boatsnguitars wrote: ↑Sat Apr 22, 2023 9:08 am
...
I simply disagree that proving or disproving Christianity is important - or at least - no more important than proving or disproving every other religion on Earth, ever. At some point, we grow up and realize proving or disproving Santa isn't important.
I'm with you up to where such folks act to oppress or harm others for it.
We're seeing how so many evangelicals here in Murica will use the legislatures, the courts, and other authorities to restrict the rights and freedoms of anyone who doesn't toe the evangleical party line.
Gilead ain't just a concept anymore.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
Problem is . . . . 
