Conservatives: Debate me on Capitalism vs. Socialism

[boatsnguitars]

I'm a Liberal.
I'll argue for a Mixed-Economy with robust social programs, you argue why we - as a society - should adopt Capitalism. Bonus points if you try to argue for strict, unregulated Capitalism.

I'll start:

Socialism is a superior economic system over capitalism. The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, the Earned Income Tax Credit, the Child Tax Credit, the Affordable Care Act, and the American Rescue Plan Act are all examples of successful programs designed to reduce poverty and food insecurity in the United States by redistributing resources. These programs have been shown to lift millions of people out of poverty and improve the overall well-being of the most vulnerable members of society.

Capitalism, with its emphasis on profit maximization, often leads to the concentration of wealth and resources in the hands of a few, leaving the rest to struggle. This has been evident in the United States, where income inequality has reached unprecedented levels. On the other hand, socialism, with its focus on social welfare and equal distribution of resources, has been successful in reducing poverty and improving the standard of living in many countries around the world.

The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, for instance, has been shown to reduce poverty rates by 1.1 percentage points in 2018 alone, lifting 4.4 million people out of poverty, including 2.2 million children. The Earned Income Tax Credit lifted 5.6 million people out of poverty, including 3 million children, in 2018. The Child Tax Credit lifted 1.5 million children out of poverty in 2018. The Affordable Care Act reduced the uninsured rate among non-elderly adults by 7.9 percentage points between 2013 and 2016. Finally, the American Rescue Plan Act, passed in 2021, is expected to significantly reduce poverty and food insecurity in the United States.

Moreover, public ownership of certain sectors, such as healthcare and education, has been shown to provide significant benefits for society. Countries with a higher proportion of publicly owned hospitals have better health outcomes and lower costs compared to countries with more privately owned hospitals. Public ownership of education has been shown to increase access to education and reduce income inequality, as seen in countries like Finland and Sweden.

In contrast, capitalism has been shown to lead to a concentration of wealth and resources in the hands of a few, while leaving the rest to struggle. Inequality has become a significant issue in the United States, with the top 1% owning more wealth than the bottom 90% of the population. A study by Oxfam found that the world's 26 wealthiest individuals own as much wealth as the bottom 50% of the global population.

In conclusion, socialism is a superior economic system to capitalism as it promotes the equal distribution of resources and reduces poverty and food insecurity. Public ownership of certain sectors, such as healthcare and education, can provide significant benefits for society, while still maintaining a market-based system for other sectors. We should strive for a mixed economy that provides a social safety net for the most vulnerable members of society while creating incentives for innovation and entrepreneurship.

[Tcg]

Moderator Action

Moved to Random Ramblings. Please review the Rules and Tips on starting a debate topic.



[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #1]

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #1

Here's an old story with a twist at the end to bring up in discussions with capitalists, especially Christian capitalists:

A man has a dream in which he sees two visions: one of hell and one of heaven.

In the vision of hell there is a long banquet table laden with a lavish feast----every kind of gourmet delicacy imaginable. The condemned souls sit around the table, each with a spoon in hand, but every spoon has an exceedingly long handle, making it impossible for them to reach their own mouths.

In the vision of heaven is the same scenario: a long banquet table, lavish feast, the blessed souls sitting around the table each with a spoon with an exceedingly long handle which won't reach their own mouths.

The condemned in hell curse and push at each other, hungry and miserable in their desperate struggle to feed themselves. The blessed in heaven are fed and happy, because they all feed each other.

If socialism is good enough for heaven, why isn't it good enough for the United States?

[Purple Knight]

You can't really argue that competition - what capitalism is - is a good system. It's fundamentally energy-wasting. Its sole decent claim is that it can discover who is the very best at something, and it doesn't even do that unless the thing they're competing at is the ability to deceive one another. The best product doesn't win; the one that convinces people it is the best, does win. You can look at sports if you want a clean competition, and you're not going to find people cutting off one another's legs with sword canes to win footraces. But you will find people slandering others to put them out of business, or suing them over and over frivolously until they run out of money to defend themselves, because as long as it's not physical, cheating is fully allowed.

The few good claims against socialism are:
That socialism is full of corruption, waste, and government bloat, and okay that's true, but it's not as if capitalism is any defence against that.
That people probably won't work if you don't enslave them with money, and this might be true. If we met peoples' basic needs without making them work for it, there might not be enough people to work at the farms, hospitals, and construction projects to provide people with food, medicine, and shelter.

[boatsnguitars]

You can't really argue that competition - what capitalism is - is a good system. It's fundamentally energy-wasting. Its sole decent claim is that it can discover who is the very best at something, and it doesn't even do that unless the thing they're competing at is the ability to deceive one another. The best product doesn't win; the one that convinces people it is the best, does win. You can look at sports if you want a clean competition, and you're not going to find people cutting off one another's legs with sword canes to win footraces. But you will find people slandering others to put them out of business, or suing them over and over frivolously until they run out of money to defend themselves, because as long as it's not physical, cheating is fully allowed.

The few good claims against socialism are:
That socialism is full of corruption, waste, and government bloat, and okay that's true, but it's not as if capitalism is any defence against that.
That people probably won't work if you don't enslave them with money, and this might be true. If we met peoples' basic needs without making them work for it, there might not be enough people to work at the farms, hospitals, and construction projects to provide people with food, medicine, and shelter.

I agree that few people want to defend Capitalism anymore. However, I have to admit, my desire to debate Capitalism vs Socialism has waned: with what I am learning about AI, i think we are about to see a major shift in how global markets, and concepts like Cap vs Soc will be obsolete. I am convinced that in the next 1, 3, 5 and 10 years we are going to go through increasingly disruptive and massive changes. Check this out if you haven't already:


https://towardsdatascience.com/how-ai-w ... 8360f7aae0
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... apitalism/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8994059/

https://quillette.com/2022/01/16/ai-and ... apitalism/

For example, training AI to optimize resource flow will make it so that no one company can have the competitive advantage, and so it will make sense to have a centralized economy.
Consider these two facts:
1. AI is learning to be more persuasive than humans to convince us of something. (It took hours for AI to learn to play Go better than any human, and invented new strategies that humans hadn't thought of in the 2500 years of the games history.)
https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.08721
https://hai.stanford.edu/news/ais-power ... persuasion
2. China is training it's AI to streamline it's markets. https://www.mckinsey.com/capabilities/q ... ts-economy

I'm just an idiot, not some prophet, but it seems obvious to me the world is going to change in ways we can't predict and soon.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #4

That people probably won't work if you don't enslave them with money, and this might be true. If we met peoples' basic needs without making them work for it, there might not be enough people to work at the farms, hospitals, and construction projects to provide people with food, medicine, and shelter.

Socialism isn't about not making people work; it's about letting working people keep everything they earn. As the old maxim says: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need".

[boatsnguitars]

If we met peoples' basic needs without making them work for it, there might not be enough people to work at the farms, hospitals, and construction projects to provide people with food, medicine, and shelter.

This is going to seem quaintly obsolete in the near future as our economy is inundated by cheap labor in the form of technology. We will have more labor than we need, and few people needing to work in those fields. Food - becomoing automated, medicine - becoming automated, shelter - becoming automated.

Food:
Agricultural automation: Automation has been introduced in agriculture through the use of autonomous tractors, drones, and robots for tasks such as planting, fertilizing, and harvesting crops. This has increased efficiency and reduced labor costs.

Food processing: Automation has been introduced in food processing through the use of machines for tasks such as cutting, chopping, and sorting of ingredients. This has increased efficiency and reduced the need for manual labor.

Packaging and labeling: Automation has been introduced in the packaging and labeling of food products through the use of machines for tasks such as filling and sealing containers, and applying labels. This has increased efficiency and reduced the need for manual labor.

Fast food industry: Automation has been introduced in the fast food industry through the use of self-order kiosks, automated food preparation equipment, and robotic delivery systems. This has increased efficiency and reduced the need for human workers in certain roles.

Medicine:
Robotic surgery: Robotic systems have been developed to assist surgeons during complex surgeries. These systems are designed to provide greater precision and control, allowing surgeons to perform surgeries with smaller incisions and less blood loss.

Electronic health records (EHRs): EHRs have replaced traditional paper-based patient records, enabling healthcare providers to access and share patient information more easily. This reduces errors and streamlines processes.

Medical imaging: Automation is used extensively in medical imaging, including computed tomography (CT), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), and ultrasound. These systems generate detailed images of internal body structures, helping doctors diagnose and treat a variety of conditions.

Medication dispensing: Automated systems are used to dispense medication in hospitals and pharmacies. These systems help to reduce errors and ensure that patients receive the correct medications in the correct dosages.

Virtual healthcare assistants: Chatbots and virtual healthcare assistants are used to help patients manage their healthcare needs. These systems can answer questions, schedule appointments, and provide reminders about medication and other treatments.

Laboratory testing: Automation is used extensively in laboratory testing, including for analyzing blood and tissue samples. These systems can process large volumes of samples quickly and accurately, helping doctors diagnose and treat a wide range of conditions.

Construction:
Prefabrication and modular construction: Prefabricated building components and modular construction can be manufactured using automated processes, reducing the need for manual labor on-site.

Robotic construction: Robotic systems can perform repetitive tasks such as bricklaying, plastering, and painting with precision and efficiency, reducing the need for manual labor.

3D printing: 3D printing can be used to create building components, reducing waste and enabling customization.

Drones: Drones can be used for surveying and mapping, inspection, and monitoring of construction sites.

Autonomous equipment: Autonomous vehicles and equipment such as excavators, bulldozers, and cranes can perform tasks without human intervention, reducing the need for manual labor and increasing efficiency.

Building information modeling (BIM): BIM is a digital model of a building that can be used for planning, design, construction, and maintenance. It can be used to optimize construction processes, reducing waste and improving efficiency.

This is all old information (from Sept 2021). There is exponential growth in all areas.


Here is more recent news:

The use of automation in the food industry has increased in recent years, allowing businesses to gain full visibility of their supply chain, protect workers from serious injury and reduce labour costs. With this in mind, it’s no surprise to hear that 62% of surveyed manufacturers plan to implement robotics and automation in 2023.

https://www.columbusglobal.com/en-gb/bl ... e-industry

How AI and Robotics are Transforming the Future of the Food Industry Automation Processes
Robotic food delivery and artificial intelligence are currently revolutionizing the food sector.

Although there have always been staffing shortages in the food and beverage sector, they were aggravated by the worldwide epidemic. To combat skill shortages and improve food security, food service firms are turning to automation in the food industry and robotic solutions. Production, assembling, quality assurance, and recordkeeping can all be made more efficient by combining automation and labor.

https://appinventiv.com/blog/automation ... -industry/

The past year has seen a profound acceleration in AI capabilities, many of which are illustrated in this year’s State of AI report. Today, for example, there are 18 drugs in clinical trials that have been developed using an AI-first approach. In 2020 there was not a single one.

Experts believe we are at an inflection point. For example, Jeffrey Dean, a Google Senior Fellow and Distinguished Fellow at the Stanford University Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence wrote a paper this spring called, “A Golden Decade of Deep Learning” in which he looks at the “tremendous” progress made in AI over the past decade and what we may expect in the future.

The future impact will be profound. PWC estimates that by 2030, AI could contribute $15.7 trillion to the global economy.

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/how-art ... undetected.

There are limitless possibilities with autonomy — humans can work alongside the robots, or the machines can operate solo without human interference. This technology isn’t new, either. The mining and agriculture industries have been using autonomous equipment for several years now. In the agriculture industry, GPS technology guides heavy equipment machinery along rows of crops. The robots used in construction can achieve similar results.

There are many types of construction robots, including:

Drones
Robot laborers
Industrial robots
Self-driving robots

https://www.monsenengineering.com/how-r ... -industry/


There is a finite amount of labor a finite number of humans need to stay alive. If even 50% of our basic needs are being met by cheap labor, we all become quasi-leisure class. We all have 'slaves' and don't need to work perhaps more than 10-20 hours per week - if that.
There is no stopping the future that is coming exponentially fast.

Automation is predicted to displace 20 million manufacturing jobs by 2030.

The US is home to 310,700 industrial robots, and that number increases by at least 40,000 each year.

Automation has the potential to eliminate 73 million US jobs by 2030, which would equate to a staggering 46% of the current jobs.

37% of Americans are worried about automation displacing them from their jobs.

85% of Americans approve of automation only in jobs that are dangerous or unhealthy for humans.

The installation of industrial robots has increased at a 10.28% compound annual growth rate over the past decade.

25% of American jobs are highly susceptible to automation.

Globally, there are 3.5 million operating industrial robots as of 2021 — a 17% increase from 2020.

https://www.zippia.com/advice/automatio ... tatistics/

Elon Musk predicts that “computers, intelligent machines, and robots seem like the workforce of the future.”
“And as more and more jobs are replaced by technology,” he says, “people will have less work to do and ultimately will be sustained by payments from the government.”

https://www.zippia.com/advice/ai-job-loss-statistics/

By 2030, 45 million Americans could lose their jobs to AI automation, representing about one-quarter of the workforce.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #7

“And as more and more jobs are replaced by technology,” he says, “people will have less work to do and ultimately will be sustained by payments from the government.”

Are you naive enough to believe that? I think it more likely that those "payments from the government" would go into developing robot security forces to protect the few who have everything from the unrest of the unemployed who've been left to fend for themselves.

[Tcg]

Moderator Intervention

Random Ramblings is not the proper subforum in which to conduct a debate. Locking thread.

Rules
C&A Guidelines


______________

Moderator interventions do not count as a strike against any posters. They are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels that some sort of intervention is required.
[Replying to Athetotheist in post #8]