Did Adam make the right choice?

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Revelations won
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Did Adam make the right choice?

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Post by Revelations won »

Did Adam make the right choice?

Did Adam make the right choice in partaking of the fruit from the tree of knowledge and should we be grateful to him and give due respect and honor our first earthly parents?

2. Did Adam’s choice prohibit anyone from receiving ALL that our Father in heaven has ever promised us pertaining to our eternal destiny?

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

Post #131

Post by William »

[Replying to Revelations won in post #130]
Dear William,

You asked: "By all means, please explain why this Garden story doesn't start at the actual beginning, and why that information was hidden from humans."

In response to the first part of your huge question I would ask: please explain exactly what do you mean by the term "actual beginning"?
Dear RW,
You wrote that it is "not possible" to believe in "Christ" and his "atoning sacrifice", in the "true and full sense required to gain salvation", without "at the same time" "believing" and "accepting" the "true doctrine of the fall".

That is partly why I asked you to, please explain why this Garden story doesn't start at the actual beginning, and why that information was hidden from humans.

Because you also wrote that if the earth and man and all living things had not been "in their physical and paradisiacal state, in a state of deathlessness", there could have been no "fall".

There is no evidence that such a paradisiacal state ever existed over the face of the natural world. The story itself tells us that the God-being planted a garden somewhere on the planet, which was specifically intended for the human the God had made for the purpose of placing said human in said environment.

It might be implied in that story that the garden was a paradise, but I do not see how that means the whole planet was.
There is no mention that the animals that were also placed in that garden were in any state of "Deathlessness" and there is no mention of these prior states you claim, so I asked for more information as to why you claim that there was and that the prior state which began as you claim it began - is not mentioned as a prelude to the Garden Story.

To further this, some folk even go so far as to claim there were things happening long before even the Earth was formed let alone the garden being planted and a Human placed into it.

So my question was simply asking why these things which are claimed as having happened were not mentioned in the story as having happened.

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

Post #132

Post by Revelations won »

Dear William,

In response to you post of 4-30-2023 I submit the following:

You said “

"By all means, please explain why this Garden story doesn't start at the actual beginning, and why that information was hidden from humans.”

My response to this great question:

This extremely abbreviated account given in Genesis as present constituted in Genesis covers only sparse details regarding the creation of this earth and it’s inhabitants.

In response to the first part of your huge question I would ask: please explain exactly what do you mean by the term "actual beginning”?

Are you asking the “actual beginning” as relating to this earth only?

Or are you asking a question “actual beginning” as it relates to the creation of all planets in our solar system or the whole universe?

Here is a little food for thought: If something has a “beginning” can it also have an end?

Here is another example: If you were to take a perfect ring, can you identify the beginning point and the end point?

Can you give certain undeniable proof and evidence of where man’s existence began and where it ends?

Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

Post #133

Post by William »

[Replying to Revelations won in post #132]


"By all means, please explain why this Garden story doesn't start at the actual beginning, and why that information was hidden from humans.”
My response to this great question:

This extremely abbreviated account given in Genesis as present constituted in Genesis covers only sparse details regarding the creation of this earth and it’s inhabitants.
Then it is best we stick to the discussion re that story rather than go off on tangents.

You wrote:
1. The creation of the heavens and the earth, of man and all forms of life;

2. The fall of man , of all forms of life, and the earth itself from their primeval and paradisiacal stater to their present mortal state; and

3. The infinite and eternal atonement, which ransoms man, all living things, and the earth also from their fallen state so that the salvation of the earth and all living things may be completed.
Those tangents expressed as claim-statements are not supported and so I asked for supporting reasons as to why they should be believed as true and why, if they are true, were they not included in the overall beginning story.

You also wrote:
I can appreciate your frustration when you can’t get others to give you a clear answer to your questions.
I would say it is more bemusement than frustration RW. Frustration implies I actually expect straightforward answers instead of runarounds.

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

Post #134

Post by onewithhim »

Revelations won wrote: Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:14 am Did Adam make the right choice?

Did Adam make the right choice in partaking of the fruit from the tree of knowledge and should we be grateful to him and give due respect and honor our first earthly parents?

2. Did Adam’s choice prohibit anyone from receiving ALL that our Father in heaven has ever promised us pertaining to our eternal destiny?

Kind regards,
RW
1. Adam made a horrible choice and caused all the suffering that the world sees now by disobeying his heavenly benevolent Father. Our first parents deserve no respect and honor. Why would they? They weren't concerned about what would happen to their progeny.

2. Yes Adam's choice prohibited anyone from receiving what the Father has promised, yet Jehovah solved that problem by providing the ransom sacrifice of a perfect human on earth, the one who proved to be His Son, Christ Jesus.

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

Post #135

Post by Revelations won »

Dear onewithhim,

Thank you for your response.

You said:

Adam made a horrible choice and caused all the suffering that the world sees now by disobeying his heavenly benevolent Father. Our first parents deserve no respect and honor. Why would they? They weren't concerned about what would happen to their progeny.

My response:

Your claim that Adam made a horrible choice is clearly a unsupported man made interpretation for the scriptures do not say such words.

May I suggest that your railing accusations against Father Adam and Mother Eve are extremely harsh and and unwarranted especially when it is very obvious that according to the Bible that " their eyes were not yet opened to understand good versus evil”. You should also consider the they in their childlike innocence had no prior experience to understand the consequences of making choices placed before them and could not comprehend the consequences of their choices.

There is absolutely no evidence in Genesis to show that they were capable of understanding the concept or meaning of the result of their choices.

The book of Genesis clearly shows the love and mercy of God shown to the after their choice to partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Do you want God to judge you with the same lack of compassion and mercy and hate that you exhibit to our noble first parents???

I will respond to your second phase of your reply later.



Kind regards,
RW
****5-16-2023*******

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

Post #136

Post by onewithhim »

Revelations won wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 10:25 pm Dear onewithhim,

Thank you for your response.

You said:

Adam made a horrible choice and caused all the suffering that the world sees now by disobeying his heavenly benevolent Father. Our first parents deserve no respect and honor. Why would they? They weren't concerned about what would happen to their progeny.

My response:

Your claim that Adam made a horrible choice is clearly a unsupported man made interpretation for the scriptures do not say such words.

May I suggest that your railing accusations against Father Adam and Mother Eve are extremely harsh and and unwarranted especially when it is very obvious that according to the Bible that " their eyes were not yet opened to understand good versus evil”. You should also consider the they in their childlike innocence had no prior experience to understand the consequences of making choices placed before them and could not comprehend the consequences of their choices.
Where in the Scriptures does it say that "their eyes were not yet opened to understand good vs. evil?" I can't find it. They undoubtedly knew the difference from early on, as God wouldn't keep his precious children in the dark as to what was good and what was bad. If they were in the dark, so to speak, how would they then know what to do to benefit themselves and what not to do that might harm them?

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

Post #137

Post by Revelations won »

Dear onewithhim,

You asked:

“Where in the Scriptures does it say that "their eyes were not yet opened to understand good vs. evil?" I can't find it. They undoubtedly knew the difference from early on, as God wouldn't keep his precious children in the dark as to what was good and what was bad. If they were in the dark, so to speak, how would they then know what to do to benefit themselves and what not to do that might harm them?”

In the first place you are making man made assumptions that have no basis in fact.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 1:29
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So one should clearly observe the everything God created was as the scripture declares “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.” This obviously according to the Bible included the “Tree of the knowledge of good and evil”.

Now I respond to your first part of your question:

Genesis 3:2
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

My response:

It is obvious that before eating of the fruit that their eyes were not yet opened. It is also obvious that the serpent i.e.Satan used some truths to further his cunning plan of deception as noted in verse 5. Above.

7
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.


My response:

It is all obvious that the Bible in verse 7 above confirms the their eyes were then opened only after they had eaten of the fruit.

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

My response:

A third witness to this fact is provided by the Bible when in verse 7. Above that the God’s also witnessed and testify that the man has also become as one of us to know good and evil.

Wow! Those multiple witnesses from the Godhead testifying to all of us that the man Adam now has his understanding vastly increased so that now he and his wife Eve now have the opportunity to discern the difference between good and evil. They must have learned a great deal from this experience, because I cannot find from the future nearly 900 year history of Adam that he never committed any other mistake! I don’t think any of us can make this claim…..

All that you have provided is your own “man made interpretation and doctrine” to support your claim. The scriptures clearly state other wise.

God did not keep them in the dark, but allowed them the gift of agency so that they might have their eyes opened to far greater understanding.


Kind regards,
RW

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

Post #138

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Revelations won wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 10:25 pm... according to the Bible that " their eyes were not yet opened to understand good versus evil”.
The above statement is not in the bible.
Revelations won wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:58 pm It is all obvious that the Bible in verse 7 above confirms the their eyes were then opened only after they had eaten of the fruit.
Their eyes were indeed opened but not to " to understand good versus evil". If we look closely at the biblical narrative it states...
GENESIS 1:7

...the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked.
The bible nowhere states Adam and Eve's eyes were open to the knowldege of Good and evil. Genesis 1v7 states their eyes came to be open as to their nakedness. Since God had created them in that state nakedness cannot be classified as "evil".






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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

Post #139

Post by onewithhim »

Revelations won wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:58 pm Dear onewithhim,

You asked:

“Where in the Scriptures does it say that "their eyes were not yet opened to understand good vs. evil?" I can't find it. They undoubtedly knew the difference from early on, as God wouldn't keep his precious children in the dark as to what was good and what was bad. If they were in the dark, so to speak, how would they then know what to do to benefit themselves and what not to do that might harm them?”

In the first place you are making man made assumptions that have no basis in fact.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 1:29
And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So one should clearly observe the everything God created was as the scripture declares “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.” This obviously according to the Bible included the “Tree of the knowledge of good and evil”.

Now I respond to your first part of your question:

Genesis 3:2
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

My response:

It is obvious that before eating of the fruit that their eyes were not yet opened. It is also obvious that the serpent i.e.Satan used some truths to further his cunning plan of deception as noted in verse 5. Above.
Satan used a lot of lies, too. It was a lie that God was holding back something good from them. There was nothing left for them to expect as far as eyes being opened was concerned. They were already as far into what is good for them as they could be. They would "be like gods," only to the extent that they would call their own shots, independent of Jehovah. I commented that they certainly were not ignorant of basic safety issues that Jehovah would surely have given them, so their eyes were not blinded to the things that Jehovah actually spoke with Adam about in the GoE. Again, Jehovah would not hold back anything good from Adam and Eve. God is Love and it wouldn't be "love" to keep important truths back from them that would be to their benefit.

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Re: Did Adam make the right choice?

Post #140

Post by Revelations won »

Dear William,

Ok, I will answer your questions one at a time:

First you asked:

"By all means, please explain why this Garden story doesn't start at the actual beginning, and why that information was hidden from humans.

My answer:

The account given in the Garden of Eden did not occur at the actual beginning. That is as simple as one can put it.

In the other part of your first question you asked: “why that information was hidden from humans.”?

My answer :

That is merely an assumption on your part, possibly based on a lack of understanding on your part.

The scriptures make it very clear that we are all spirit children of our Heavenly Father. I.e.

Numbers 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Numbers 27:16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I might suggest here that in the above verse it is very clear that our spirit bodies could not return unto or Heavenly Father unless we existed there in the first place.

Hebrew 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Romans 8:
16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


Hosea 1:
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.


Acts 17:
28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

So William, from all of the above scriptures it is very self evident that we all first are first created with spirit bodies as literal offspring of Divine parents. This of course was long before the Garden of Eden event.

Most are uninformed and are without knowledge because most are unwilling to search all that God has revealed. My understanding is that God has not hidden these things from us humans. It is merely a faillure on our part to search the things of God.

Kind regards,
RW

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