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Replying to Miles in post #8]
So who is doing this fine tuning if it isn't ourselves who are continually honing our understandings of our world? Or are you suggesting that the physical constants and laws of the universe themselves are being purposefully changed by Orgoff the Magnificent, or whomever?
The nature of my argument isn't to do with naming the mind doing the fine-tuning. My argument is that Mind is obviously doing it.
My argument revolves around the idea that there is an evident presence of intelligence - therefore mind - involved in the fine-tuning of the fundamental physical constants and laws of the universe. The focus is on the recognition of this intelligence rather than specifically identifying or naming the entity responsible for it.
After all, that is what religion does, and we want to - specifically - keep religion out of the educational programs.
Intelligent designers perhaps, but no more off the wall than the designer Christian's are trying to foist upon us today.
But I do thank you for your examples, and stand all the wiser for them.
Convention is what we are attempting to avoid, whether that is from religious sectors or scientific ones, promoting consensus.
I was looking more for the where rather than the what, but okay,
“Where” this mind occupies spacetime, is best looked at locally. The Sun, and the planets.
It would be difficult for current scientific methods to locate a mind in Sol or in Saturn to use two examples.
There is one planet we know of which exhibits intelligent and thus mindful design.
Earth.
The focus of my argument is not to follow current scientific consensus any more than religious consensus. Consensus is simply opinion based upon how the evidence is interpreted, and of course – those who believe mindfulness is not an inherent aspect of Nature, are not going to look for, let alone recognise and acknowledge mindfulness.
My argument has to do with the scientists not wanting any ID taught in schools, alongside the scientific consensus.
There is empirical evidence for mindfulness re the planet our minds are involved with. Scientific Consensus would have us believe that mindfulness has nothing to do with the process?
The scientific consensus at present does not support the assertion that mindfulness, in the sense of conscious intention or purpose, is an inherent aspect of natural processes.
That is exactly why ID is resisted. It is not just the religious viewpoints which SC is resisting, but anything which they consider unworthy of examining.
Perceived lack of empirical evidence and testability” = "Interpreting the evidence in a particular way which ignores mindfulness and its most obvious function re Planet Earth."
The fact that the scientific method primarily focuses on empirical observations, testable hypotheses, and naturalistic explanations to understand and explain natural phenomena indicates that we can acknowledge that the mind is so much of a mystery and cannot easily be examined with physical device since it is immaterial, that scientists have a reason to ignore it or any argument which says that the same evidence interpreted as evidence of mindfulness, falls "outside" of "consensus".
What are the characteristics of being naturally mindful? And why these particular characteristics rather than some others? Moreover, why would this intelligent agent necessarily evolve trough universal evolution? Or wouldn't it?
Indeed. A Galaxy Mind would have a different characteristic than a Star Mind which would have a different characteristic to a Gas- Giant Planet Mind which would have a different characteristic to a Biological Planet Mind.
This is not to say that the minds are therefore separate re function and purpose. Rather, they act in a co-creative manner, as is evidence in the empirical evidence.
If the opinion/argument is that ID should not be treated as Empirical Science then, all things of the mind should likewise not be treated as such.
The study of the brain is limited as a means of understanding what Mind is. To example, The Earth appears to be mindful, and even creates brains in bodies. However, there is no known brain identified that the planet has, thus the notion of the planet being mindful is considered unscientific because “no brain" = "mindlessness”.
So, where would one find this evolving intelligence and consciousness in the universe? I assume that in saying the universe evolves you mean it simply keeps changing from its present state to what, the Big Crunch or the Big Chill?
Perhaps you are reflecting the SC in having to ask where something can be found in this universe, as if somehow Earth is not a great contender?
Your question seems redundant as the answer in in front of our very noses.
It is an empirical fact that Earth exists and mindfulness is able to be acknowledged, if not in the planet as a whole, then certainly at least in the parts, and therein significant evidence that “if the parts – then probable the whole” for the parts are indicative of this being the case.
