Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Compassionist
Guru
Posts: 1020
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:56 pm
Has thanked: 770 times
Been thanked: 135 times

Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

Post #1

Post by Compassionist »

Most religions claim that souls exist. Some religions claim that souls are immortal and are reincarnated after the death of the body while other religions claim that souls are immortal and are resurrected after the death of the body. Can anyone please prove that souls exist and are either resurrected or reincarnated? Thank you.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14000
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

Post #201

Post by William »

[Replying to The Tanager in post #194]
I have argued that the extra layer of supernaturalism you attempt to superimpose upon the natural universe creates more complexity than necessary to an already complex natural system.
All else being equal, I agree.
If you are saying that provided we can agree with those “other factors”, you can agree with me on this. That goes without having to be said.

“Is your Mind/minds purely Matter/matter? If not, then they are non-material. Or we could use the synonym that means the exact same thing for our purpose here: non-natural. Or we could use another synonym that means the exact same thing for our purpose here: supernatural. Therefore, your Mind explanation is a “supernatural” explanation, as I mean the term. Thus, your view (all else being equal) isn’t less complex than my “supernatural” one. Both have the level of mind/supernatural/non-physical/immaterial/etc.”
Your Philosophy has it that there is no distinction between your use of the word "supernatural" and my use of the word "Natural" which suggests to me that you think we are on the same page.
I would say that we are similar and distinct from materialists, and the onus is on us to come to agreement re our terminology and appropriate use of words as they are generally understood.
In relation to said materialists, you are also involved in arguing with them and clearly their understanding of the word "supernatural" and the connotations of said word, they are confused and think you are meaning an actual reality not only outside of this one, but responsible for creating this one.
As well as this, you and I have had many discussions over the years and I agree with the materialists that you are saying what they think you are saying.
I mention this primarily to point out the confusion this is helping to cause.
“Why do you say my view is that minds within the universe are a product of an unknown source? I think you mean material source, not the efficient source since you say my argument claims a supernatural mind created them. (My argument here actually doesn’t say what created them, as that is a different question and, therefore, irrelevant to the argument, but I do think a supernatural Mind created them). If you mean material source, then it’s not an unknown source, but that it is known there is no source.”
I think the answer to your question “Why do you say my view is that minds within the universe are a product of an unknown source?” is because “supernatural” as it is generally understood, is unknown. Therefore a supernatural mind outside of this natural environment [the universe] would, and indeed has to be - unknown and probably unknowable.
Why do you think your creation via transformation is less complex than creation ex nihilo?
I would say that "configuration" explains the idea of the philosophy I present to describe the organization of unorganized matter, as it conveys the idea of arranging and structuring elements into a specific form.
"Transformation" can be confused with "supernaturalism" which my philosophy is specifically taking off the table.

Regarding the mind, my perspective suggests that through thought, the mind brings about configurations or forms that can be experienced as real by the one thinkin said thoughts. This aligns with the notion that the mind plays a fundamental role in shaping and perceiving the world.

In that regard - the one is simpler than the other, if indeed the other is argued to be another universe which is separate from this one and responsible for the existence of this one, so no - clearly your philosophy is indeed the more complex of the two...unless of course, your use of the word "supernatural" is the same as my use of the word "natural" re the known existence of mind involved with matter/the immaterial involved with the material. Presently it does not appear to be the case that we are saying the same thing re "all else being equal".
It’s indistinguishable prior to organization, not after organization, correct? Otherwise, why call one matter and one mind?
Yes. The distinction between matter and mind arises after organization takes place as the organization of unorganized matter leads to the emergence of distinct properties and characteristics associated with material entities, while the immaterial mind represents a different aspect of existence. The organization of matter by the mind is what gives rise to the material world as we - as distinct minds within it, perceive it.
The use of the terms "matter" and "mind" are employed to differentiate between the physical aspect of reality and the conscious aspect of reality, wherein there is no requirement for any supernatural cause outside of said process, let alone causing said process.

The distinction between my philosophy and that of the materialist is that in mine, organized matter derives from mind, rather than mind being an emergent property of organised matter.
The distinction between your philosophy of supernaturalism, and that of the materialist is that mind "comes from elsewhere" entirely.
“The traditional dualism sees them as interconnected and mutually influencing as well, so that’s not different. Your view still separates them, or you wouldn’t call one mind and the other matter.”
It would be fair to say that traditional dualism often incorporates supernaturalism into its philosophy. Traditional dualism typically posits a strict separation between the physical/material realm and the immaterial or spiritual realm. It often associates the mind or consciousness with the immaterial/spiritual realm, which is considered distinct from the physical world governed by natural laws. This perspective implies the existence of supernatural entities or forces that influence or interact with the material world.

The inclusion of supernaturalism in traditional dualism allows for the existence of immaterial or spiritual entities that transcend the organised natural order and have a direct influence on the mind and the material world. This supernatural aspect is often attributed to a higher power, such as a divine being or a transcendent realm.

In contrast, my viewpoint challenges the need for supernatural explanations and offers a more interconnected understanding of mind and matter without invoking supernatural elements.
I propose a framework that emphasizes the interplay between mind and matter within the natural world, suggesting that the organizing Mind is an inherent aspect of the interconnected fabric of reality rather than an external supernatural force.
Then my argument puts that argument to rest because while matter is being organized, the process is happening within that which is being organized, so there is no justification to think of the immaterial aspect of the material reality to have to exist outside of the material reality in order to organize/create said material.
I don’t mean “outside” in the sense of “it doesn’t reside within material,” but just that it is a different thing.
But you do mean "outside" in the literal sense of there being a supernatural realm which created the natural realm, as per your argument Jason, so there are nuances to address in that the label we each give to the mind are further into a complexity re supernatural, and equal to the complexity re natural.

Essentially we speak from the same platform re the different platform of materialism, but differ in our interpretations of the nature of mind. I say it is responsible for the organization of the material it is experiencing and you say that another mind outside of the mind experiencing the matter, created - not only the matter - but also the mind that resides within the matter.
Then you are using “natural” in a way I’m not. I’m using “natural” to mean “physical” or “material”. You aren’t here, right?


I see "natural" as encompassing both the physical/material aspect and the immaterial/mental aspect. My perspective recognizes the interconnectedness and interplay between mind and matter, where the mind is an inherent part of nature and plays a fundamental role in organizing and shaping the material world.
It is the integration of mind and matter within the framework of nature.

User avatar
boatsnguitars
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2060
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:09 am
Has thanked: 477 times
Been thanked: 580 times

Re: Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

Post #202

Post by boatsnguitars »

The Tanager wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:36 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:41 pm Because it's incoherent. It's logically incoherent. The supernatural is non-natural, therefore, it wouldn't have any similarity, or physics, or nature that is common to the natural.

This is the absurdity of your claim.
I understand you meant it’s incoherent; I was asking you to show why it’s incoherent because I didn’t see anything incoherent definitionally. So, the supernatural can’t affect the natural because it doesn’t have any similarity? Only similar things can affect each other? Why? Dissimilar things seem to affect each other all the time. Rain affects you, but you aren’t similar things. I must be misunderstanding you. Could you clear up my confusion?
Rain and people are made of Matter.
When the air temperature decreases, it can lead to condensation of water vapor in the atmosphere, resulting in the formation of rain. The raindrops fall under the influence of gravity and make contact with the surface, including my head. The mass of the rainwater adds to the overall weight on my head, exerting a downward force.

At the microscopic level, the surface tension of water allows it to form cohesive droplets that adhere to one another and fill the spaces between individual hair strands. This phenomenon is governed by intermolecular forces between water molecules, which contribute to the cohesive properties of liquid water.

As the rainwater comes into contact with my head, heat transfer occurs between my body and the water. My body temperature is generally higher than the temperature of the rainwater, causing the heat to transfer from my body to the cooler water. This heat transfer can result in the evaporation of the rainwater, as the added energy enables water molecules at the surface to overcome intermolecular forces and transition into a gaseous state.

In summary, the cooling of the air leads to condensation and the formation of rain, which falls and lands on my head. The cohesive properties of water and surface tension allow the rainwater to adhere to and fill the gaps between my hair strands. Additionally, the temperature difference between my body and the rainwater facilitates heat transfer, potentially leading to evaporation of the water and the formation of steam.


But, wait...

Are you really this confused?

Just explain, in clear terms, how the supernatural interacts with the Natural. What prediction can you make? For example, if I perform a seance, can I talk to my dead ancestors? If i say an incantation, can I make a bowl float in air? If I say another incantation (prayer) will God move a mountain? Tell me what you are talking about and how we can confirm your statement.

Just back up what you are claiming!
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2572 times

Re: Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

Post #203

Post by JoeyKnothead »

boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:19 am
The Tanager wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:36 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:41 pm Because it's incoherent. It's logically incoherent. The supernatural is non-natural, therefore, it wouldn't have any similarity, or physics, or nature that is common to the natural.

This is the absurdity of your claim.
I understand you meant it’s incoherent; I was asking you to show why it’s incoherent because I didn’t see anything incoherent definitionally. So, the supernatural can’t affect the natural because it doesn’t have any similarity? Only similar things can affect each other? Why? Dissimilar things seem to affect each other all the time. Rain affects you, but you aren’t similar things. I must be misunderstanding you. Could you clear up my confusion?
Rain and people are made of Matter.
When the air temperature decreases, it can lead to condensation of water vapor in the atmosphere, resulting in the formation of rain. The raindrops fall under the influence of gravity and make contact with the surface, including my head. The mass of the rainwater adds to the overall weight on my head, exerting a downward force.

At the microscopic level, the surface tension of water allows it to form cohesive droplets that adhere to one another and fill the spaces between individual hair strands. This phenomenon is governed by intermolecular forces between water molecules, which contribute to the cohesive properties of liquid water.

As the rainwater comes into contact with my head, heat transfer occurs between my body and the water. My body temperature is generally higher than the temperature of the rainwater, causing the heat to transfer from my body to the cooler water. This heat transfer can result in the evaporation of the rainwater, as the added energy enables water molecules at the surface to overcome intermolecular forces and transition into a gaseous state.

In summary, the cooling of the air leads to condensation and the formation of rain, which falls and lands on my head. The cohesive properties of water and surface tension allow the rainwater to adhere to and fill the gaps between my hair strands. Additionally, the temperature difference between my body and the rainwater facilitates heat transfer, potentially leading to evaporation of the water and the formation of steam.


But, wait...

Are you really this confused?

Just explain, in clear terms, how the supernatural interacts with the Natural. What prediction can you make? For example, if I perform a seance, can I talk to my dead ancestors? If i say an incantation, can I make a bowl float in air? If I say another incantation (prayer) will God move a mountain? Tell me what you are talking about and how we can confirm your statement.

Just back up what you are claiming!
Lol

It's amazing what the theist has to have explained to em.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

User avatar
boatsnguitars
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2060
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:09 am
Has thanked: 477 times
Been thanked: 580 times

Re: Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

Post #204

Post by boatsnguitars »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:31 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:19 am
The Tanager wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:36 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 3:41 pm Because it's incoherent. It's logically incoherent. The supernatural is non-natural, therefore, it wouldn't have any similarity, or physics, or nature that is common to the natural.

This is the absurdity of your claim.
I understand you meant it’s incoherent; I was asking you to show why it’s incoherent because I didn’t see anything incoherent definitionally. So, the supernatural can’t affect the natural because it doesn’t have any similarity? Only similar things can affect each other? Why? Dissimilar things seem to affect each other all the time. Rain affects you, but you aren’t similar things. I must be misunderstanding you. Could you clear up my confusion?
Rain and people are made of Matter.
When the air temperature decreases, it can lead to condensation of water vapor in the atmosphere, resulting in the formation of rain. The raindrops fall under the influence of gravity and make contact with the surface, including my head. The mass of the rainwater adds to the overall weight on my head, exerting a downward force.

At the microscopic level, the surface tension of water allows it to form cohesive droplets that adhere to one another and fill the spaces between individual hair strands. This phenomenon is governed by intermolecular forces between water molecules, which contribute to the cohesive properties of liquid water.

As the rainwater comes into contact with my head, heat transfer occurs between my body and the water. My body temperature is generally higher than the temperature of the rainwater, causing the heat to transfer from my body to the cooler water. This heat transfer can result in the evaporation of the rainwater, as the added energy enables water molecules at the surface to overcome intermolecular forces and transition into a gaseous state.

In summary, the cooling of the air leads to condensation and the formation of rain, which falls and lands on my head. The cohesive properties of water and surface tension allow the rainwater to adhere to and fill the gaps between my hair strands. Additionally, the temperature difference between my body and the rainwater facilitates heat transfer, potentially leading to evaporation of the water and the formation of steam.


But, wait...

Are you really this confused?

Just explain, in clear terms, how the supernatural interacts with the Natural. What prediction can you make? For example, if I perform a seance, can I talk to my dead ancestors? If i say an incantation, can I make a bowl float in air? If I say another incantation (prayer) will God move a mountain? Tell me what you are talking about and how we can confirm your statement.

Just back up what you are claiming!
Lol

It's amazing what the theist has to have explained to em.
I blame their parents. :-)
I think they spend so much time reading the woo in the Bible, and listening to Apologists who have no scientific knowledge that they believe their idle, flights of fanciful opinion are of the same caliber of rigor and depth as what science provides. They think hand-waving is a valid argument. They think that "God works in mysterious ways" is an actual, valid explanation - so they have no problem waving their hand and saying "the supernatural works in mysterious ways, so I don't need to explain it, I just have to believe it exists".
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

User avatar
DrNoGods
Prodigy
Posts: 2716
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Location: Nevada
Has thanked: 593 times
Been thanked: 1642 times

Re: Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

Post #205

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #204]
... so they have no problem waving their hand and saying "the supernatural works in mysterious ways, so I don't need to explain it ...
Or an equivalent escape mechanism ... souls are within the realm of philosophy and therefore cannot be explained or investigated by science.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2572 times

Re: Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

Post #206

Post by JoeyKnothead »

DrNoGods wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:31 am [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #204]
... so they have no problem waving their hand and saying "the supernatural works in mysterious ways, so I don't need to explain it ...
Or an equivalent escape mechanism ... souls are within the realm of philosophy and therefore cannot be explained or investigated by science.
Or that science is built on a philosophy that by examining stuff...

The theist has so, so many tools at their disposal, but don't it beat all, none of them work to fix the problem of a lack of evidence.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

User avatar
boatsnguitars
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2060
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:09 am
Has thanked: 477 times
Been thanked: 580 times

Re: Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

Post #207

Post by boatsnguitars »

Tanager seems to have left for greener pastures. Would any other Supernaturalist like to carry his torch?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

User avatar
The Tanager
Prodigy
Posts: 4975
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

Post #208

Post by The Tanager »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:56 pm
I understand you meant it’s incoherent; I was asking you to show why it’s incoherent because I didn’t see anything incoherent definitionally. So, the supernatural can’t affect the natural because it doesn’t have any similarity? Only similar things can affect each other? Why? Dissimilar things seem to affect each other all the time. Rain affects you, but you aren’t similar things. I must be misunderstanding you. Could you clear up my confusion?
Rain is mostly water. Humans are mostly water.
So, rain can affect humans because they are both mostly made up of water when the affecting is going on? Okay, then why can rain affect parched ground?

User avatar
The Tanager
Prodigy
Posts: 4975
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

Post #209

Post by The Tanager »

DrNoGods wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 12:53 amThe idea that cell reproduction in the brain would somehow make the brain function differently to produce a different consciousness, or "I", doesn't make sense. The structures the cells make still function in exactly the same way when their component cells reproduce. It is no different than when cells in other parts of the body are replaced ... the same bodily functions continue. A typical human replaces about 330 billion cells per day, but this process does not result in the structures and organs the cells make behave differently. There's no reason to expect that cell reproduction in the brain would have any impact whatsoever on consciousness if consciousness is an emergent property of a brain.
I didn’t say it makes the brain function differently. If the wood of a ship is replaced, then it is a different ship, although it still has all the same functions of the old ship. I said it results in a different collection of matter and if it’s the matter that gives rise to consciousness, then different collections of matter would give rise to different consciousnesses. This is the case whether the different collections of matter are called DrNoGods now and The Tanager now or they are DrNoGods at age 5 and DrNoGods now.

User avatar
The Tanager
Prodigy
Posts: 4975
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 11:08 am
Has thanked: 45 times
Been thanked: 149 times

Re: Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

Post #210

Post by The Tanager »

Clownboat wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:53 amIf 'x' does a thing, then affecting 'y' is to not affect 'x'. The statement stands on its own. Are you now trying to claim that the soul needs the brain, but why say that as it just points out the fact that the soul isn't even needed as a concept in the first place?
I don’t see how that statement necessarily follows. One player is dribbling a football looking for a pass to make. The defender knocks his teammate to the ground, taking away the passing option, which affects the player dribbling the ball; he’s got to do something else with the ball.

I have already said that I believe humans are soul-body composite beings. That means, to be a human, soul needs brain and brain needs soul. Having one doesn’t mean the other is unneeded.
Clownboat wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:53 am
How it interacts is a good but different question that is irrelevant to the one we are discussing.
I submit that you offer an imagined thing that you call a soul. The fact that you cannot show that it interacts with our reality in any way, shape or form is very relevant to the topic.
Notice that I said how it interacts and you said that it interacts in your response. I agree that it interacts is the topic we are addressing right now. I’ve given arguments and you’ve started to respond to those. How the interaction takes place, if it does, is what I said is irrelevant to discussing if it does take place.
Clownboat wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:53 amAs you demonstrate for us all. You don't know anything at all about a soul if we are being honest, except for your belief that a soul lives on after death. That is literally all you have and the ONLY justification for there to be a soul. I acknowledge that soul belief is religious in nature and have noted this from the start. That doesn't make the soul idea false, but it shows it to be what it is, just a religious/spiritual musing (until shown to be more).
I have never claimed here that a soul lives on after death or used it to justify anything I’ve said. That’s a straw man.
Clownboat wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:53 amSee the bold. This is where it seems like dishonesty is creeping in.
Brain injuries can cause changes in our consciousness which suggests a relationship between the brain and consciousness. It is only you that is making the odd claim that the consciousness would now be a different consciousness.
I have not said there is no relationship between brain and consciousness; I’ve very clearly said otherwise. We aren’t talking about that; we are talking about a producing relationship of the brain to consciousness. My claim isn’t an odd one; it’s been heavily talked about throughout the history of the philosophical discussion on this issue. If the brain produces consciousness, and the brain changes into something materially different (not functionally different, but materially different), then the subsequent consciousnesses produced would also be something different. Not just changes within the same consciousness, but a new consciousness. Different causes (different collections of matter we call a ‘brain’ and say are unified) produce different effects.
Clownboat wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:53 amThis is what I refer to as complaining. Just provide evidence for your argument that a soul is what supplies consciousness and not a working brain.
This reminds me of talking about evolution. Creation doesn't become true if we complain enough about the best explanation we currently have and that seems to be your approach here.
You brought up that severe injuries can cause permanent unconsciousness; I agree. I shared why I didn’t think that was relevant to the argument I presented. Why do you refer to this as complaining?
Clownboat wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:53 amYou define a car as a title? That's odd, but off topic. Are you unhappy about how we transfer ownership of cars?
No, you brought it up when talking about adding oil to our car, seemingly saying that if this is truly a new car, then we’d get a new title. That would only be the case if one defines a car by its title.
Clownboat wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:53 amThe car is still the car, but the oil has been changed. The car has changed only to the degree that the oil was replaced and is in fact, still the same car. The banks nor the government would consider this to be a different car. You ONLY want to call it a different car because you want to think that getting some new brain cells will cause a different consciousness. Neither idea is reasonable.
Do you ONLY want to call it the same car because you want to think that getting some new brain cells means it’s the same brain and the same consciousness? If not (and I would hope not), then why do you think I have that kind of mindset? Instead of pyschologizing, let’s address the arguments rationally. A car is a specific group of matter.

Yes, the radiator gets replaced and we still call it the same car, our car, but why isn’t that just a useful fiction? Do you believe the car is something more than just a collection of matter? If not, then different collections of matter are different things.

Post Reply