Protection of children in schools, USA

[oldbadger]

This my question:-

I've heard about many mass shootings in US schools over recent years.
Assuming that nothing is going to change about gun law at all, does anybody have any positive suggestions for the reduction and deterring of such outrages?

I think that to employ security officers is a good idea if their training, duties, patrols and inspections can be sorted out.
I think that more effective perimeter security could help.
I think that more effective access control would help.

But members...please! What do you think might reduce these mass murders and increase child safety?

NB:- There's not point in arguing for gun controls, because even if guns controls happen, this country is so full of guns that anybody is going to be able to acquire a gun for many decades to come.

So.... does any body have any ideas to offer?

Thank you.

[boatsnguitars]

Solution: Move out of the country.

I'm out, and won't return to the US if I can help it. There is no reason to live in constant fear, or have children grow up to learn how to avoid getting shot as a normal course of school, or go to prison-like facilities. The USA is no longer the land of the free, home of the brave.

It's great, no doubt, but there are other great countries all around the world.

[oldbadger]

It can be hard to move for gun control with opposition from a powerful gun lobby. You don't seem to know much about US politics.

Anybody who sees/hears the news knows about your NRA and gun lobby. So you don't actually believe that you can make a difference any time soon, so will sit back and wait for yet more child mass murders? You can do more!

There very fact that you have chucked the 'we don't want schools to be inverted prisons' (or similar) shows me that you have no intention of pushing for better school security.

What I buy is that the US is so awash with guns that anybody will be able to acquire a gun for decades to come UNLESS we enact better gun controls NOW.

...which you know you're unlikely to get........ you do know about ther gun lobby and NRA, yes?
But you won't buy a set standard of school security which will cost a lot of money but which is urgently required? OK.

What I'm not prepared to do is rely solely on security systems, procedures and equipment. Security systems are more effective when there's less force coming against them

Rubbish. Is that what your expert told you?
Where do you dig this rubbish up from?
Security systems can be lighter if there is less risk, heavier for more risk.

How about buying back all those guns?

Well you can't! So to look at a set standard of security for schools across your country and an authority to visit and inspect/test them....... you won't move forward

I'm employed by an outside contractor providing services to students. I've worked in schools on a daily basis for years. I was in a classroom during a break period when two students came in and informed the teacher of the Sandy Hook massacre. I've been in school lockdowns both practice and real. I'm not a stranger in this land; I know the territory.

If you think that your schools have a general standard of security then you clearly know nothing.
I can only hope that there will be an initiative for a general standard of security in schools........ that will be expensive but you've been having mass shootings in schools for many years....... it's time to do something.

On another forum the proud governor of a Texas infants school showed a picture of their new sign in the grounds, warning that their teachers are armed....what he didn't realise was that this picture showed the school's perimeter fenceline which was a tatty old wood paling job about 3.5' high, and with no shrouding at all. From what I've seen, UK kids' schools are much more secure............ and we don't have so many guns as you do.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #12

If you think that your schools have a general standard of security then you clearly know nothing.
I can only hope that there will be an initiative for a general standard of security in schools........ that will be expensive but you've been having mass shootings in schools for many years....... it's time to do something.

It is indeed time to do something, and it has to be more than to just hunker in the bunker and ride it out.

You seem to presume that because we're Americans it must be about money. It is in a sense, but it's that most of us want the money spent where it's most needed: infrastructure, mental health services, increasing educational opportunities for success rather than just building more prisons to park people in when they fail......the kinds of things which treat the illness and not just a symptom. If you want to make it about money, having the high-tech security industry suffer a dip in sales is a small price to pay for rendering its products and services less necessary.

I'm not at all against adequate security for schools, and I'm not at all against spending what money is necessary to have it. The trap is in spending all of our money on a riskier, temporary solution and then being told that we don't have enough to spend on a premanent solution. The riskier, temporary, less effective solution then becomes our only recourse.

A naval commander wouldn't say, "Never mind sending out the carriers for air cover......let's wait until the enemy fleet brings the war to our doorstep and just let the battleships handle it." That would be stupid, and it's just as stupid to use up all of our resources relying on a last-ditch defense only a hair's breadth from our dearest blood because addressing the social and economic root causes of all that violence is always met with, "How are we gonna pay for it??"

Saying, "Gun control is decades away," virtually guarantees that it will never get any closer, because it becomes a mantra, a slogan like the aforementioned, "Now isn't the time to talk about gun control". In 1960, anyone could reasonably have assumed that the repeal of Jim Crow laws was "decades away". A group of people refused to accept that and turned the calendar ahead.

"Now is not the time" and "that's decades away" are nothing but rhetorical barbiturates which induce complacent inaction.

[oldbadger]

It is indeed time to do something, and it has to be more than to just hunker in the bunker and ride it out.

You seem to presume that because we're Americans it must be about money. It is in a sense,....................

You see? Money............

I'm not at all against adequate security for schools, and I'm not at all against spending what money is necessary to have it. The trap is in spending all of our money on a riskier, temporary solution and then being told that we don't have enough to spend on a premanent solution. The riskier, temporary, less effective solution then becomes our only recourse.

Start at the beginning and work your way through the job, I would suggest. Every school MUST have a sound and high perimeter fence with shrouding by play and role-call areas. That's a MUST. A sensible and low cost idea is to train and insure teachers who already have a gun licence so that they can have suitably concealed pistol with them. Rules about all that must be very strict.
All fire exits must be high security and code locked (ours are here) so that kids cannot get out....... school-staff that lose kids do not deserve to have jobs.
............... and schools could go forward from there as funds can be found.

A naval commander wouldn't say, "Never mind sending out the carriers for air cover......let's wait until the enemy fleet brings the war to our doorstep and just let the battleships handle it." That would be stupid, and it's just as stupid to use up all of our resources relying on a last-ditch defense only a hair's breadth from our dearest blood because addressing the social and economic root causes of all that violence is always met with, "How are we gonna pay for it??"

You see? You told me .....You seem to presume that because we're Americans it must be about money.
Yep......... A very rich country holding back simple security in schools.

Saying, "Gun control is decades away," virtually guarantees that it will never get any closer, because it becomes a mantra, a slogan like the aforementioned, "Now isn't the time to talk about gun control". In 1960, anyone could reasonably have assumed that the repeal of Jim Crow laws was "decades away". A group of people refused to accept that and turned the calendar ahead.

You can talk about gun control all day long, but you need decent security in your schools......... a gun control won't provide that for decades!

"Now is not the time" and "that's decades away" are nothing but rhetorical barbiturates which induce complacent inaction.

The condition of poor security in so many US school is indeed 'complacent inaction'.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #14

A sensible and low cost idea is to train and insure teachers who already have a gun licence so that they can have suitably concealed pistol with them.

I've already cited evidence that this is a bad idea.

You can talk about gun control all day long, but you need decent security in your schools......... a gun control won't provide that for decades!

I've already cited evidence that this is a compacent assumption.

The condition of poor security in so many US school is indeed 'complacent inaction'.

Well, you've bragged about the UK keeping schools safe. Let's look at how they do it:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uks- ... rangements

"Following the shocking shooting in Plymouth, where five people were killed on 12 August, the Home Secretary made clear that today’s guidance will be kept under close review, and updated with any further lessons learned from the ongoing inquiries into these murders."

When there's an incident they tighten the laws, not instead of security but in addition to it. That's how it's done, and it needn't take "decades".

[benchwarmer]

I'm not in the U.S., but I think the only real, long lasting solution is something like they did in Australia (which has already been mentioned).

The U.S. is definitely awash in guns. Putting even more guns in the schools on the teachers/security personal just adds more chances for access to a gun inside the school.

Americans need to be incentivized to relinquish their guns - likely with a generous buyback scheme. If it was generous enough, you might even see criminals ironically helping to solve at least one problem: Taking every gun they can find and returning it for cash.

I know that some Americans will use their guns to avoid giving their guns back. That's definitely a real threat, but the country is already basically at war with itself. It seems like every day there is yet another mass shooting. It's hard to watch.

[oldbadger]

I've already cited evidence that this is a bad idea.

Your and you chosen expert's opinions are not evidence.

I've already cited evidence that this is a compacent assumption.

I don't think that you know what a citation is, nor what evidence is.

Well, you've bragged about the UK keeping schools safe. Let's look at how they do it:

Yes, our governments do seem to have insisted upon a higher standard of security than on average in the US.
However, you tell me that because I have bragged that you want to show example of how we do it, then post up an article of a shooting in the UK 3 YEARS AGO, when in fact the article you have shown explains how our government has reacted to that already.

Your schools are not safe and you are ignoring this.

When there's an incident they tighten the laws, not instead of security but in addition to it. That's how it's done, and it needn't take "decades".

No no....... that's how the UK does it!
And our schools are safer as well.

Time to spend some money, I think?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #17

I don't think that you know what a citation is, nor what evidence is.

I'm starting to wonder if you know what citation and evidence are, so here they are again:

https://daiglelawgroup.com/new-study-on ... -stack-up/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19462309/

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _incidents

https://giffords.org/articles/every-inc ... n-schools/

https://www.ajc.com/blog/get-schooled/g ... JVpeu58cM/

......and one to grow on:

https://apnews.com/article/ar-state-wir ... ed5adcc593

Your schools are not safe and you are ignoring this.

I am most certainly not ignoring this. There are numerous good ideas for keeping schools safe, but arming teachers is a measure so bad that calling it "doorknob stupid" would be an insult to the intelligence of doorknobs.

Yes, our governments do seem to have insisted upon a higher standard of security than on average in the US.
However, you tell me that because I have bragged that you want to show example of how we do it, then post up an article of a shooting in the UK 3 YEARS AGO, when in fact the article you have shown explains how our government has reacted to that already.

Yeah, as I understand it they reacted by making strict gun laws even more strict. And how many mass shootings have they had since then? Not nearly as many as we've had here, I would guess.

When there's an incident they tighten the laws, not instead of security but in addition to it. That's how it's done, and it needn't take "decades".

No no....... that's how the UK does it!
And our schools are safer as well.

Their schools are safer because that's how they do it. The way they do it works.

[oldbadger]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #17

I don't think that you know what a citation is, nor what evidence is.

I'm starting to wonder if you know what citation and evidence are, so here they are again:

https://daiglelawgroup.com/new-study-on ... -stack-up/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19462309/

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... _incidents

https://giffords.org/articles/every-inc ... n-schools/

https://www.ajc.com/blog/get-schooled/g ... JVpeu58cM/

......and one to grow on:

https://apnews.com/article/ar-state-wir ... ed5adcc593

Your schools are not safe and you are ignoring this.

I am most certainly not ignoring this. There are numerous good ideas for keeping schools safe, but arming teachers is a measure so bad that calling it "doorknob stupid" would be an insult to the intelligence of doorknobs.

Yes, our governments do seem to have insisted upon a higher standard of security than on average in the US.
However, you tell me that because I have bragged that you want to show example of how we do it, then post up an article of a shooting in the UK 3 YEARS AGO, when in fact the article you have shown explains how our government has reacted to that already.

Yeah, as I understand it they reacted by making strict gun laws even more strict. And how many mass shootings have they had since then? Not nearly as many as we've had here, I would guess.

When there's an incident they tighten the laws, not instead of security but in addition to it. That's how it's done, and it needn't take "decades".

No no....... that's how the UK does it!
And our schools are safer as well.

Their schools are safer because that's how they do it. The way they do it works.

That's better....so you showed reports, one which discussed idiotic cases of teachers being daft with guns....... But since America is unlikely to spend much money on school security and safety then training, licensing and insuring teachers to have a gun with them is not a bad idea.

All your examples of teachers being idiots with guns....these simply show me that you have no proper training licensing and imandatory insurance for teachers to have pistols in schools. You've got to do it correctly!!

And by the way........... in many years of talking to Americans, not one has told me that they do hold All-risks third-party insurance cover for their guns. I don't think that many are properly trained to carry pistols privately.

But.....Hey!...... if you can get guns more closely controlled, why even then you're going to need a standard level of security in your schools.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to oldbadger in post #19

But since America is unlikely to spend much money on school security and safety then training, licensing and insuring teachers to have a gun with them is not a bad idea.

First gun control was "decades away", necessitating higher security in schools, and now higher security itself is presumably decades away, necessitating the arming of teachers?
Seems the race to the bottom is speeding up.

All your examples of teachers being idiots with guns....these simply show me that you have no proper training licensing and imandatory insurance for teachers to have pistols in schools. You've got to do it correctly!!

Who's going to do the training? Police who miss their own targets over half the time in High Anxiety situations?

And by the way........... in many years of talking to Americans, not one has told me that they do hold All-risks third-party insurance cover for their guns. I don't think that many are properly trained to carry pistols privately.

"How's your insurance?"

"I'm in pretty good shape. I'm covered against fire, flood, tornado, theft, accidentally shooting somebody's kid while aiming at a school intruder....."

And here's just......more:

https://time.com/6182970/good-guys-guns ... gs-uvalde/