Christians and Guns

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boatsnguitars
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Christians and Guns

Post #1

Post by boatsnguitars »

Every day, 321 people are shot in the United States. Among those:
111 people are shot and killed
210 survive gunshot injuries
95 are intentionally shot by someone else and survive
42 are murdered
65 die from gun suicide
10 survive an attempted gun suicide
1 is killed unintentionally
90 are shot unintentionally and survive
1 is killed by legal intervention*
4 are shot by legal intervention and survive
1 died but the intent was unknown
12 are shot and survive but the intent was unknown

DAILY GUN VIOLENCE IMPACTING CHILDREN AND TEENS (1-17)
Every day, 22 children and teens (1-17) are shot in the United States. Among those:
5 die from gun violence
3 are murdered
17 children and teens survive gunshot injuries
8 are intentionally shot by someone else and survive
2 children and teens either die from gun suicide or survive an attempted gun suicide
8 children and teens are unintentionally shot in instances of family fire — a shooting involving an improperly stored or misused gun found in the home resulting in injury or death

ANNUAL GUN VIOLENCE IMPACTING PEOPLE OF ALL AGES IN THE U.S.
Every year, 117,345 people are shot. Among those:
40,620 people die from gun violence
15,343 are murdered
76,725 people survive gunshot injuries
34,566 are intentionally shot by someone else and survive
23,891 die from gun suicide
3,554 survive an attempted gun suicide
492 killed unintentionally
547 are killed by legal intervention
1,376 are shot by legal intervention and survive
347 die but the intent was unknown
4,471 are shot and survive but the intent is unknown
547 women are killed by their husband or male dating partner**

ANNUAL GUN VIOLENCE IMPACTING CHILDREN AND TEENS (AGES 1-17)
Every year, 7,957 children and teens are shot in the United States. Among those:
1839 children and teens die from gun violence
992 are murdered
6,294 children and teens survive gunshot injuries
2,788 are intentionally shot by someone else and survive
693 die from gun suicide
166 survive an attempted gun suicide
10 are killed by legal intervention
101 are shot by legal intervention and survive
99 are killed unintentionally
2,893 are shot unintentionally and survive
38 die but the intent was unknown
380 are and survive shot but the intent is unknown



WWJD? Nothing?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Christians and Guns

Post #21

Post by boatsnguitars »

Purple Knight wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:57 pm Accepting is not dismissing and avoiding.

Let's lockdown not just for coronavirus, but for the flu, too. Only lives matter right? Thirty thousand die a year from the flu.

Fishing kills 70 people a day, worldwide.

A dozen or so die every year taking selfies.

I'm not against banning guns either. Japan is safer. However, it's a fallacy to say that someone not willing to bend the world over backwards to prevent some amount of deaths, is dismissing those deaths.
Covid was new, and we had no idea what it would turn into. If we treated it like the flu, far more people would have died. The number of lives saved because of the lock down and vaccine were worth it. Not to mention, the decline in flu deaths.

I'm not onboard with people's flippant attitude towards other people's deaths when they think it's all about some individuals desire to make money.

Can't make money when you're dead.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Christians and Guns

Post #22

Post by JoeyKnothead »

boatsnguitars wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:30 am
Purple Knight wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:57 pm Accepting is not dismissing and avoiding.

Let's lockdown not just for coronavirus, but for the flu, too. Only lives matter right? Thirty thousand die a year from the flu.

Fishing kills 70 people a day, worldwide.

A dozen or so die every year taking selfies.

I'm not against banning guns either. Japan is safer. However, it's a fallacy to say that someone not willing to bend the world over backwards to prevent some amount of deaths, is dismissing those deaths.
Covid was new, and we had no idea what it would turn into. If we treated it like the flu, far more people would have died. The number of lives saved because of the lock down and vaccine were worth it. Not to mention, the decline in flu deaths.

I'm not onboard with people's flippant attitude towards other people's deaths when they think it's all about some individuals desire to make money.

Can't make money when you're dead.
There's also the issue with how sickness / death was reported by state agencies. We're likely to never know the full extent of the damage.

In my neck of the woods, people were quite adamantly against any "restrict my freedoms", but of course are thrilled when it's "restrict other's freedoms".

I was diagnosed with covid, but luckily it wasn't bad at all. The depression it caused writing goodbye letters for the worst case is what hurt the most. I'd still rather have died than know I might have killed somebody by passing it on.

The best thing about covid was it tripped Trump's vanity switch, costing him an election he would have won if only he left it up to the experts.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Re: Christians and Guns

Post #23

Post by boatsnguitars »

JoeyKnothead wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:12 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:30 am
Purple Knight wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:57 pm Accepting is not dismissing and avoiding.

Let's lockdown not just for coronavirus, but for the flu, too. Only lives matter right? Thirty thousand die a year from the flu.

Fishing kills 70 people a day, worldwide.

A dozen or so die every year taking selfies.

I'm not against banning guns either. Japan is safer. However, it's a fallacy to say that someone not willing to bend the world over backwards to prevent some amount of deaths, is dismissing those deaths.
Covid was new, and we had no idea what it would turn into. If we treated it like the flu, far more people would have died. The number of lives saved because of the lock down and vaccine were worth it. Not to mention, the decline in flu deaths.

I'm not onboard with people's flippant attitude towards other people's deaths when they think it's all about some individuals desire to make money.

Can't make money when you're dead.
There's also the issue with how sickness / death was reported by state agencies. We're likely to never know the full extent of the damage.

In my neck of the woods, people were quite adamantly against any "restrict my freedoms", but of course are thrilled when it's "restrict other's freedoms".

I was diagnosed with covid, but luckily it wasn't bad at all. The depression it caused writing goodbye letters for the worst case is what hurt the most. I'd still rather have died than know I might have killed somebody by passing it on.

The best thing about covid was it tripped Trump's vanity switch, costing him an election he would have won if only he left it up to the experts.
I know it's because I'm a Liberal, and therefore, I believe that we ought to leverage the populous to do the hard, unprofitable, unglamorous, but important work. Health care, National Defense, Global crises, famine, drought, etc. When it comes to huge problems, we need to organize and and tackle them as a species.
I think there are too many people who are jaded or uninterested in other people, and think "I shouldn't have to pay for others, I just want to get mine. If I die, so what. If others die, so what."
That's a broken human brain - IMO - because it abdicates our responsibility to one another, as a social species.
Trump is this kind of egotistical, self-centered, greedy impulse personified. He is it laid bare without any other attributes.
The people who feel as Trump does admire him because in their minds he proved that if you simply look out for yourself, avoid taxes, and only care about those loyal to you you win: money, hot wife, power, influence, can grab women, rape, shoot people in Times Square - and get away with it. It was no surprising Christians jumped on the Trump Train. They've always admitted they were sinners, and with Trump they could use him. I'm not sure if they had a long term plan, but it was clear they were willing to ignore his gross inhumanity and side with him. It was all about money.

If we, as a society, keep thinking money is the only thing to work for, we will lose as a species. If we abdicate to corporations - thinking that we "vote with our dollars" we will lose - because Corporations have even less reason to be transparent than the Govt. If we abdicate to anarchy, we all lose, because only the most ruthless and powerful will have anything.

To me, the Government isn't some faceless organization: it's Us. It's "We The People" - to be a little saccharine. Yes, it messes up, like any organization does, but if we keep insisting, through the Press, through Activism, through running for local offices, we may be able to save our ship.

But first we need to stop giving stupid people our attention like Trump, Jones, Tucker, Rush, etc. There's a lot of work, but if we get tired, it's going to be very easy for the cynics to win - and then we get Trump 2.0.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Christians and Guns

Post #24

Post by Purple Knight »

boatsnguitars wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:30 amThe number of lives saved because of the lock down and vaccine were worth it. Not to mention, the decline in flu deaths.

I'm not onboard with people's flippant attitude towards other people's deaths when they think it's all about some individuals desire to make money.
Is there some number that would not have been worth it? Or if even one person can be saved, should we lock down?

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Re: Christians and Guns

Post #25

Post by boatsnguitars »

Purple Knight wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:01 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:30 amThe number of lives saved because of the lock down and vaccine were worth it. Not to mention, the decline in flu deaths.

I'm not onboard with people's flippant attitude towards other people's deaths when they think it's all about some individuals desire to make money.
Is there some number that would not have been worth it? Or if even one person can be saved, should we lock down?
In hindsight? Or, do you mean at the onset of a potential pandemic?

I'd say 365,000. That's acceptable, unless I or one of my loved ones is one of them.

Can you tell us at the beginning of the next pandemic that the number won't surpass that?

I think you'll agree you can't. Nobody can. That's why we need society to be reasonable.

If everyone had stayed home for a month, we would have stopped it. Do you agree?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Christians and Guns

Post #26

Post by Purple Knight »

boatsnguitars wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:58 pmIf everyone had stayed home for a month, we would have stopped it. Do you agree?
No I don't agree. That might be the case but we don't know. And you don't mean stayed home with no contact. Most people don't have a month's worth of food in their houses. So you mean, stayed home, had groceries delivered (this means essential workers) and had as little contact as possible but not none. We made an economy that forces dependency and we can't break it down that quickly. We definitely don't know that it wouldn't have spread on the backs of the people delivering groceries and driving trucks.
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:58 pmIn hindsight? Or, do you mean at the onset of a potential pandemic?

Can you tell us at the beginning of the next pandemic that the number won't surpass that?

I think you'll agree you can't. Nobody can.
What we also can't agree on is whether bending society over backwards to stop some number of people from dying is justified. Agreement would require everyone to either agree on a number or be willing to bring society to a halt every time one person is at risk.
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 5:58 pmI'd say 365,000. That's acceptable, unless I or one of my loved ones is one of them.
My point is, you also think some number of losses is acceptable. So does everyone else, they just might disagree on the number.

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Re: Christians and Guns

Post #27

Post by boatsnguitars »

Purple Knight wrote:
My point is, you also think some number of losses is acceptable. So does everyone else, they just might disagree on the number.
No doubt, but how do we know the number before the pandemic?
That's my point. As for grinding society to a halt: this is society. What we do as a society is society.
If we are a humane society, we grind to a halt to make sure as many people are cared for as possible.
If we are unsocial, inhumane, we carry on as if it doesn't really matter if 1 or 1 billion people die of disease, starvation, lack of clean water, despair, etc.

Sure, it's easy to say we are the latter, so any small thing we do is to be commended, but it's a strange argument to say that we ought not do more in all areas, all so some people can make a buck.

I would think as a whole, the general argument I that we need to do more to help not less.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Christians and Guns

Post #28

Post by Purple Knight »

boatsnguitars wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:22 pm
Purple Knight wrote:
My point is, you also think some number of losses is acceptable. So does everyone else, they just might disagree on the number.
No doubt, but how do we know the number before the pandemic?
No, but if somebody's number is 102,341, and they think the deaths won't meet that, they're not being any more dismissive of lives than anyone else. Everybody has a number. Nobody's number is 1.
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:22 pmThat's my point. As for grinding society to a halt: this is society. What we do as a society is society.
If we are a humane society, we grind to a halt to make sure as many people are cared for as possible.
If we are unsocial, inhumane, we carry on as if it doesn't really matter if 1 or 1 billion people die of disease, starvation, lack of clean water, despair, etc.
We live in a society of engineered dependency. If people were self-sufficient and all they would lose were luxuries and the opportunity to go to the mall, I doubt they'd object. I at least wouldn't.
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:22 pmSure, it's easy to say we are the latter, so any small thing we do is to be commended, but it's a strange argument to say that we ought not do more in all areas, all so some people can make a buck.

I would think as a whole, the general argument I that we need to do more to help not less.
Those bucks are the only thing keeping some people alive.

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Re: Christians and Guns

Post #29

Post by boatsnguitars »

Purple Knight wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:47 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:22 pm
Purple Knight wrote:
My point is, you also think some number of losses is acceptable. So does everyone else, they just might disagree on the number.
No doubt, but how do we know the number before the pandemic?
No, but if somebody's number is 102,341, and they think the deaths won't meet that, they're not being any more dismissive of lives than anyone else. Everybody has a number. Nobody's number is 1.
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:22 pmThat's my point. As for grinding society to a halt: this is society. What we do as a society is society.
If we are a humane society, we grind to a halt to make sure as many people are cared for as possible.
If we are unsocial, inhumane, we carry on as if it doesn't really matter if 1 or 1 billion people die of disease, starvation, lack of clean water, despair, etc.
We live in a society of engineered dependency. If people were self-sufficient and all they would lose were luxuries and the opportunity to go to the mall, I doubt they'd object. I at least wouldn't.
boatsnguitars wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:22 pmSure, it's easy to say we are the latter, so any small thing we do is to be commended, but it's a strange argument to say that we ought not do more in all areas, all so some people can make a buck.

I would think as a whole, the general argument I that we need to do more to help not less.
Those bucks are the only thing keeping some people alive.
Sadly, that's the society we have created. But, the society we've also created is one that is willing - on some level - to shut things down in the interest of saving lives. It was a horrible execution of public policy, but the attempt was there.

From your comments, I get that you are a little more of a Libertarian? Perhaps a cautious anarchist? Just trying to pick up the subtlety of what you might be alluding to.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Christians and Guns

Post #30

Post by Purple Knight »

boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:17 amFrom your comments, I get that you are a little more of a Libertarian? Perhaps a cautious anarchist? Just trying to pick up the subtlety of what you might be alluding to.
I'm not anything. Most of the people I know are diehard Libertarians and they seem very sure of their values so I often base arguments on the premises I can be sure they'll accept. But I don't think redistribution is inherently evil.

What I don't think you can do, is put lives first and then say it's okay to kill some people to save other people.

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