Better off Without Morality?

Ethics, Morality, and Sin

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Purple Knight
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Better off Without Morality?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

For the religious I ask that you exclude God-made morality from this discussion and only consider man-made morality.

Question for Debate: Would we as human beings be better off without the idea that some actions are moral and some are not?

For example, let's use as an example, the idea that homosexual relations are wrong. If you're a religious person you have been asked to exclude this idea from the discussion, so you might be asked to imagine something else, like the idea that rubber duckies are immoral to own.

Rubber duckies being some evil is a bit sillier than homosexual relations, and that's probably because even among those who believe homosexuality is permissible and moral, they can recognise it as something one human does to another, with the potential for harm, and that not every instance of gay sex is automatically good - if it would be pederasty, for example.

But we can imagine a world in which rubber duckies (owning them, rather) causes harm. If they are so desired and demanded that companies cut corners in making them, so that they are routinely poisoning bathwater, or if the rich take resources that would go toward feeding people, and pay a higher price for them, using them to make their rubber duckies, then owning them could conceivably cause harm.

What morality does, at its best, is that it streamlines this process, irons it out, and makes it fair. If rubber duckies are immoral, so be it, but everyone goes together. Either we all stop this business, or no one is forced to. Everyone will have some reason that their rubber duckie does not cause harm and they should be allowed to keep it, but the moral rule, if supported by enough solidarity, will help people just accept it, and not argue about it. We've done this with murder. We reject it and those who commit it, and the sole point of argument seems to be self-defence.

What morality also does is detach the idea of harm from the idea that we should not do this act, and cast the person against rubber duckies as somehow higher than the person who simply wants to keep his own rubber duckie. Anyone looking to be higher can make up a rule, and instantly look down on those breaking that rule. A bully can take someone's bicycle and he'll be wrong, but if he can moralise the idea, bikes are now wrong and he is now a shining crusader for good.

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Re: Better off Without Morality?

Post #2

Post by Adonai Yahweh »

For example, let's use as an example, the idea that homosexual relations are wrong. If you're a religious person you have been asked to exclude this idea from the discussion, so you might be asked to imagine something else, like the idea that rubber duckies are immoral to own.

Rubber duckies being some evil is a bit sillier than homosexual relations, and that's probably because even among those who believe homosexuality is permissible and moral, they can recognise it as something one human does to another, with the potential for harm, and that not every instance of gay sex is automatically good - if it would be pederasty, for example.

But we can imagine a world in which rubber duckies (owning them, rather) causes harm. If they are so desired and demanded that companies cut corners in making them, so that they are routinely poisoning bathwater, or if the rich take resources that would go toward feeding people, and pay a higher price for them, using them to make their rubber duckies, then owning them could conceivably cause harm.

What morality does, at its best, is that it streamlines this process, irons it out, and makes it fair. If rubber duckies are immoral, so be it, but everyone goes together. Either we all stop this business, or no one is forced to. Everyone will have some reason that their rubber duckie does not cause harm and they should be allowed to keep it, but the moral rule, if supported by enough solidarity, will help people just accept it, and not argue about it. We've done this with murder. We reject it and those who commit it, and the sole point of argument seems to be self-defence.

What morality also does is detach the idea of harm from the idea that we should not do this act, and cast the person against rubber duckies as somehow higher than the person who simply wants to keep his own rubber duckie. Anyone looking to be higher can make up a rule, and instantly look down on those breaking that rule. A bully can take someone's bicycle and he'll be wrong, but if he can moralise the idea, bikes are now wrong and he is now a shining crusader for good.
Morality is essential part of humanity , humans are inherently evil , in psychology it talks about the id and the superego in which the superego is our morality and the Id is our pleasure instincts . If every human decided to be governed by their pleasure instincts we would have Lord of the Flies situation . Immorality is very simple terms is anything that destroys the continuation of the human race and the advancement of society as a whole . It through the hard work and effort of those before us that we are able to live the lives we have now . Which demonstrates as humans we are meant to serve each other . Whatever products or tools you would make should help people so it advances society as a whole . The things that are even created today is for the future of humanity . And we as humans are not perfect but it is important that we each hold each other accountable for our misdeeds especially when the ideology is detrimental to the advancement and continuation of society and humans

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Re: Better off Without Morality?

Post #3

Post by boatsnguitars »

Adonai Yahweh wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:14 pm Morality is essential part of humanity , humans are inherently evil , .....
You lost me already. Was Jesus inherently evil or was he not human?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Better off Without Morality?

Post #4

Post by Bust Nak »

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

Without morality, why would anyone care as long as the rubber ducks are only poisoning someone else's water? Perhaps more to the point, morality is not just an idea but a built in biological trait, you might as well have asked about removing the sense of taste from humanity.

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Re: Better off Without Morality?

Post #5

Post by Adonai Yahweh »

You lost me already. Was Jesus inherently evil or was he not human?
Jesus is God , so no he is not human . The way he came on this earth , even the way he died there no man on this earth that can endure such brutal treatment and still be able to be crucified .

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Re: Better off Without Morality?

Post #6

Post by Purple Knight »

Bust Nak wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:13 am [Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

Without morality, why would anyone care as long as the rubber ducks are only poisoning someone else's water? Perhaps more to the point, morality is not just an idea but a built in biological trait, you might as well have asked about removing the sense of taste from humanity.
Maybe I will ask that, when "things that taste bad" are used as an excuse to beat people over the head and enforce dominance.

If it tastes bad, don't eat it. If the rubber duckies are poisoning water, don't have one.

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Re: Better off Without Morality?

Post #7

Post by Miles »

Adonai Yahweh wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:02 am
You lost me already. Was Jesus inherently evil or was he not human?
Jesus is God , so no he is not human . The way he came on this earth , even the way he died there no man on this earth that can endure such brutal treatment and still be able to be crucified .
John 17:1
17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 11:41-42

Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

1 Thimothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


.

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Re: Better off Without Morality?

Post #8

Post by Bust Nak »

Purple Knight wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:52 pm If it tastes bad, don't eat it. If the rubber duckies are poisoning water, don't have one.
Why not? I want to keep my rubber duckies, I am rich enough to make sure my water is not poisoned.

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Re: Better off Without Morality?

Post #9

Post by Purple Knight »

Bust Nak wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 4:15 am
Purple Knight wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:52 pm If it tastes bad, don't eat it. If the rubber duckies are poisoning water, don't have one.
Why not? I want to keep my rubber duckies, I am rich enough to make sure my water is not poisoned.
Yes, the problem comes in when you add other people who you might be hurting. But if those people just do what's good for them, and stand up for themselves, and everybody starts from the position of selfishness being okay, it avoids a lot of waste of energy.

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Re: Better off Without Morality?

Post #10

Post by Adonai Yahweh »

John 17:1
17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 11:41-42

Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

1 Thimothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
John 10: 30 " I and the Father are one "

Colossians 2:9 " For in Christ the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form "

Philippians 2:5-6: " You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had though he was God he did not think equality with God as something to cling to "

There is a difference between being God and being made in the likeness and image of God . Genesis 1:26-27 "Then God said, 'Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.' So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them." Genesis 2:7 , "Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." This scripture also shows why we return to dust

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