WHAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT FOR CHRIST TO BE DECLARED THE SON OF GOD?

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WHAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT FOR CHRIST TO BE DECLARED THE SON OF GOD?

Post #1

Post by Eddie Ramos »

The Bible tells us that Christ was declared to be the Son of God after completing one specific task, after raising from the dead.

Romans 1:4 (KJV 1900)
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by (meaning THROUGH) the resurrection from the dead:

This passage is extremely interesting because we notice that Christ was declared to be the Son of God even from his conception as recorded in the gospels.

Luke 1:35 (KJV 1900)
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Mark 9:7 (KJV 1900)
And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.


Over and over, we see many passages that declare Christ to be the Son of God, but the problem is that if we look to the cross as the only time Christ died and rose again, the he had not yet died nor rose again, yet here he is, being declared to be the Son of God before his death and resurrection. But this is not a problem is we can see that Christ died and rose again from the foundation of the world to pay for sins. Now, at any time throughout the course of the history of the world, Christ could be rightfully declared to be the son of God before the cross of 33 A.D. and we still have perfect harmony with the scriptures.

For those who disagree that Christ died and rose again from the foundation of the world, then the discussion for the O.P. is, can you show from the scriptures how could Christ be declared to be the Son of God, by the resurrection from the dead, if he hadn't died nor rose again till 33 A.D. and yet was indeed declared to be the Son of God throughout his earthly ministry?

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Re: WHAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT FOR CHRIST TO BE DECLARED THE SON OF GOD?

Post #21

Post by Eddie Ramos »

1213 wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 5:35 am
Eddie Ramos wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 7:38 am
1213 wrote: Tue Mar 21, 2023 6:30 am
Eddie Ramos wrote: Mon Mar 20, 2023 11:39 pm ...
Hebrews 9:22 (KJV 1900)
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
I think that is misunderstood and doesn't mean God can't forgive without blood.
Well, that would be an incorrect understanding on your part because death (blood shed) is the payment for sin required by the law of God. (Rom 6:23). You do realize that the altar of sacrifice was basically a daily slaughter house, don’t you. And the sole purpose of all that bloodshed and death was only to paint a picture of atonement because none of those sacrifices could ever actually forgive sins.

Hebrews 10:11 (KJV)
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:


This is the very reason Christ came, to demonstrate how he shed his blood (died) for sins from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 26:28 (KJV)
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins
.
Sorry, I still think you are wrong. The blood of the covenant is the wine. And that there was sacrifices is not the same as that the blood is required for God to forgive.
No offense, but it doesn't matter what you or I think is right or wrong. What should matter is what is the truth of the whole of the scriptures. Do you understand what the purpose of all that bloodshed was for in the Old Testament?
Why God required it? This is off topic, but I hope you consider it.

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Re: WHAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT FOR CHRIST TO BE DECLARED THE SON OF GOD?

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Eddie Ramos wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:20 am Why God required it?
Please show a scripture where God requires blood, for to forgive?

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Re: WHAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT FOR CHRIST TO BE DECLARED THE SON OF GOD?

Post #23

Post by onewithhim »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:06 am
1213 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:11 am
I think it is not a problem, because children of God can be known by this:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10
Thanks for the scriptures, but I'm not sure I follow your train of thought with that passage you posted. I see that it's speaking of the children of God and about the Son of God (Christ) and the reason he was revealed (or manifested). When something is "manifested", it's able to be seen. And when it came to Christ, since he died and rose again before anyone even existed, then no ne was here to witness what took place. This is one reason God manifested what he had already accomplished before the world began in Christ.
This passage helps us to understand how God defines the word "manifested" (or "revealed").

1 John 1:2 (KJV 1900)
(For the life (this is Christ, who is the way, the truth and the life) was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life (this again is Christ), which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)


But before he was manifested, he already died and rose again to pay for sins, and when he arose from the dead, he was declared to be the Son of God. Then the Son of God created the world and at anytime throughout the world's existence, God could forgive the sins of anyone he chose to do so, because all the requirements for forgiveness had been met by Christ. So, when the time came for Christ to be made manifest in the form of a baby, he was already declared to be the Son of God because he had already died and rose from the dead, and was the first to do so (Rev 1:5).

If I misunderstood the point of your reply, then please let me know.
It is imperative to understand just when "the founding of the world" took place. It is not the creation of the planet. The "world" is the same as at IJohn 2:15-17. It is the people who deliberately turn away from worshiping Jehovah, just as Adam and Eve and Cain did, that are considered "the world." The world alienated from God will be eliminated forever....all the people who are willfully evil. No more "world."

"Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world....The world is passing away...but he that does the will of God remains forever." (IJohn 2:15-17) So can't we now say that Jesus was chosen to die for mankind in between the time of Adam's denial of Jehovah's right to rule and the time that Cain killed his brother (the foundation of the world)?

Do you get the difference? The "world" is not the planet. It is the world of humans alienated from God, as I John brings out. That is my $.02

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Re: WHAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT FOR CHRIST TO BE DECLARED THE SON OF GOD?

Post #24

Post by Eddie Ramos »

1213 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 5:37 am
Eddie Ramos wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:20 am Why God required it?
Please show a scripture where God requires blood, for to forgive?
I did, but you said you didn't think that meant what it said. I'll try once more along with the context:

Hebrews 9:15–26 (KJV 1900)
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Exodus 30:10 (KJV 1900)
And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 4:25 (KJV 1900)
25 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.

Leviticus 16:15 (KJV 1900)
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

Ephesians 2:13 (KJV 1900)
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 10:19 (KJV 1900)
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

1 John 1:7 (KJV 1900)
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5 (KJV 1900)
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Not sure what religion (other than Muslims) ignores death as the only means by which God's law can be satisfied, but no forgiveness has ever existed without the shedding of blood (meaning, death) in the Bible.

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Re: WHAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT FOR CHRIST TO BE DECLARED THE SON OF GOD?

Post #25

Post by Eddie Ramos »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:18 pm
Eddie Ramos wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 9:06 am
1213 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 6:11 am
I think it is not a problem, because children of God can be known by this:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10
Thanks for the scriptures, but I'm not sure I follow your train of thought with that passage you posted. I see that it's speaking of the children of God and about the Son of God (Christ) and the reason he was revealed (or manifested). When something is "manifested", it's able to be seen. And when it came to Christ, since he died and rose again before anyone even existed, then no ne was here to witness what took place. This is one reason God manifested what he had already accomplished before the world began in Christ.
This passage helps us to understand how God defines the word "manifested" (or "revealed").

1 John 1:2 (KJV 1900)
(For the life (this is Christ, who is the way, the truth and the life) was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life (this again is Christ), which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)


But before he was manifested, he already died and rose again to pay for sins, and when he arose from the dead, he was declared to be the Son of God. Then the Son of God created the world and at anytime throughout the world's existence, God could forgive the sins of anyone he chose to do so, because all the requirements for forgiveness had been met by Christ. So, when the time came for Christ to be made manifest in the form of a baby, he was already declared to be the Son of God because he had already died and rose from the dead, and was the first to do so (Rev 1:5).

If I misunderstood the point of your reply, then please let me know.
It is imperative to understand just when "the founding of the world" took place. It is not the creation of the planet. The "world" is the same as at IJohn 2:15-17. It is the people who deliberately turn away from worshiping Jehovah, just as Adam and Eve and Cain did, that are considered "the world." The world alienated from God will be eliminated forever....all the people who are willfully evil. No more "world."

"Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world....The world is passing away...but he that does the will of God remains forever." (IJohn 2:15-17) So can't we now say that Jesus was chosen to die for mankind in between the time of Adam's denial of Jehovah's right to rule and the time that Cain killed his brother (the foundation of the world)?

Do you get the difference? The "world" is not the planet. It is the world of humans alienated from God, as I John brings out. That is my $.02
I agree with your first statement, that, "It is imperative to understand just when "the founding of the world" took place". But the question is how exactly do we determine that? We certainly can't do it with our own logic or reasonings. The answer has to come from the scriptures themselves. You're also right that the foundation of the world is not the actual creation of the planet, but neither is it referring to people. The foundation of the world is what took place before the world was actually spoken into existence by Christ. And since the word "world" encompasses all of what God created (sometimes, the physical earth, sometimes mankind, sometimes the universe, etc), we can't just look at one passage to determine what is meant by, "the foundation of the world". Instead, we have to look for passages which speak of the same thing in different ways.

2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV 1900)
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in (meaning, through) Christ Jesus before the world began,


So, the next question would be, when did the world begin? Well, Genesis 1:1 answers this for us.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV 1900)
IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


The first day of creation was the beginning of this world's existence as per the scriptures. So, since Christ made payment for sins and did what was necessary to save his elect before the world began, then we can be sure that the phrase, "from the foundation of the world" is making reference to eternity past. Here is another helpful passage that helps us know that we're on the right track in our understanding:

Proverbs 8:23 (KJV 1900)
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning,
Or ever the earth was.


If you take the time to look up the Hebrew words used here, you'll find it very interesting because the words "set up" is also translated as "poured out" which are the same words used in conjunction with a drink offering made to God. In other words, Christ was poured out (as an offering) from everlasting (meaning from eternity) and not sometime after the fall of man. Also, the word translated as "beginning" here is misleading because it seems to suggest that eternity is being referred to as "the beginning" just like Genesis 1:1 says. But this is a different Hebrew word altogether which is mostly translated as "head". But the next part of this verse is what assures us that when Christ was offered up as an offering, that the earth was not yet created, "or ever the earth was". This is because Christ himself is the foundation upon which everything was built, meaning, not just this creation, but also the spiritual temple of God as well because Christ is the chief cornerstone of all things.

Job 38:4–6 (KJV 1900)

4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Declare, if thou hast understanding.
5  Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?
Or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened?
Or who laid the corner stone thereof;


Here God is speaking about the creation of this world and universe, all which were built upon a foundation, a corner stone, which is Christ.

Ephesians 2:20 (KJV 1900)
 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;


So, the foundation of the world, is also understood as the foundation of God's entire creation. But then there's even a reference to "BEFORE the foundation of the world" which takes us one step further into eternity which was when God made choice of all those whom he would save, and then died, making payment on their behalf.

Ephesians 1:4 (KJV 1900)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

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Re: WHAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT FOR CHRIST TO BE DECLARED THE SON OF GOD?

Post #26

Post by 1213 »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:17 pm
1213 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 5:37 am
Eddie Ramos wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:20 am Why God required it?
Please show a scripture where God requires blood, for to forgive?
I did, but you said you didn't think that meant what it said. I'll try once more along with the context:
Thanks, but, I don't think any of these says directly that God requires blood to forgive. And if it is said indirectly, then it may be misunderstood.
Eddie Ramos wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:17 pmHebrews 9:15–26 (KJV 1900)
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Exodus 30:10 (KJV 1900)
And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 4:25 (KJV 1900)
25 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.

Leviticus 16:15 (KJV 1900)
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

Ephesians 2:13 (KJV 1900)
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 10:19 (KJV 1900)
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

1 John 1:7 (KJV 1900)
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5 (KJV 1900)
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Not sure what religion (other than Muslims) ignores death as the only means by which God's law can be satisfied, but no forgiveness has ever existed without the shedding of blood (meaning, death) in the Bible.
For example in these forgiveness is bound to the idea that person rejects his wrong way:

Let the wicked forsake his way and the vain man his thoughts; and let him return to Jehovah, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.
Jes. 55:7
And they shall no longer each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah. For they shall all know Me, from the least of them even to the greatest of them, declares Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.
Jer. 31:34
It may be the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I plan to do to them, that they may each man turn from his evil way, and I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
Jer. 36:3

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Re: WHAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT FOR CHRIST TO BE DECLARED THE SON OF GOD?

Post #27

Post by Eddie Ramos »

1213 wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:05 am
Eddie Ramos wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:17 pm
1213 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 5:37 am
Eddie Ramos wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 6:20 am Why God required it?
Please show a scripture where God requires blood, for to forgive?
I did, but you said you didn't think that meant what it said. I'll try once more along with the context:
Thanks, but, I don't think any of these says directly that God requires blood to forgive. And if it is said indirectly, then it may be misunderstood.
Eddie Ramos wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:17 pmHebrews 9:15–26 (KJV 1900)
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Exodus 30:10 (KJV 1900)
And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

Leviticus 4:25 (KJV 1900)
25 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.

Leviticus 16:15 (KJV 1900)
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

Ephesians 2:13 (KJV 1900)
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 10:19 (KJV 1900)
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

1 John 1:7 (KJV 1900)
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Revelation 1:5 (KJV 1900)
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Not sure what religion (other than Muslims) ignores death as the only means by which God's law can be satisfied, but no forgiveness has ever existed without the shedding of blood (meaning, death) in the Bible.
For example in these forgiveness is bound to the idea that person rejects his wrong way:

Let the wicked forsake his way and the vain man his thoughts; and let him return to Jehovah, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.
Jes. 55:7
And they shall no longer each man teach his neighbor, and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah. For they shall all know Me, from the least of them even to the greatest of them, declares Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.
Jer. 31:34
It may be the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I plan to do to them, that they may each man turn from his evil way, and I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
Jer. 36:3
But what you're doing is being selective in your approach of the scriptures, are you not? The verses you posted are 100% true, but those verses have to harmonize (agree) with every other verse in the Bible as one cohesive truth. Otherwise we can pick only the verses that suit us best. Therefore, any verse we choose to hold from the scriptures, must be understood in the light of the Bible as a whole. So, any verse that speaks of forgiveness without the immediate mention of a sacrifice, we know, by comparing scripture with scripture (i.e. by rightly dividing the Word of Truth) that without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness.

Hebrews 9:22 (KJV 1900)
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (no forgiveness).


Another way to show you what I mean is, you posted Jeremiah 31:34, but apparently you were not aware that the New Testament also quotes from that same verse, but it does so in the context of bloodshed.

Hebrews 10:12–19 (KJV 1900)
But this man (Christ), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before(now God is going to quote from the Old Testament), 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (This part is from Jeremiah 31:33 and verse 17 of Hebrews 10 is quoted from the last part of the very next verse of Jeremiah 33, verse 34) 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission (this word "remission" is the same word "remission" used in Hebrews 9:22 where God ties it into bloodshed) of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (In other words, for true remission to be able to take place, only one offering, one death, one sacrifice was suitable. That was Christ.) 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,


I hope you can see how understanding something in the context of the scriptures, as a whole, leads us closer to being in harmony (in agreement) with the rest of the scriptures. But when passages are isolated from the Bible, then the Bible itself will contradict us. That is God's way of teaching us that we're on the wrong doctrinal path and need to make correction.

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Re: WHAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT FOR CHRIST TO BE DECLARED THE SON OF GOD?

Post #28

Post by 1213 »

Eddie Ramos wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:15 am Hebrews 9:22 (KJV 1900)
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (no forgiveness).


Another way to show you what I mean is, you posted Jeremiah 31:34, but apparently you were not aware that the New Testament also quotes from that same verse, but it does so in the context of bloodshed.

Hebrews 10:12–19 (KJV 1900)
But this man (Christ), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before(now God is going to quote from the Old Testament), 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (This part is from Jeremiah 31:33 and verse 17 of Hebrews 10 is quoted from the last part of the very next verse of Jeremiah 33, verse 34) 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission (this word "remission" is the same word "remission" used in Hebrews 9:22 where God ties it into bloodshed) of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (In other words, for true remission to be able to take place, only one offering, one death, one sacrifice was suitable. That was Christ.) 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
That there was blood, does not necessary mean that God demands blood, for to forgive.
Eddie Ramos wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:15 am I hope you can see how understanding something in the context of the scriptures, as a whole, leads us closer to being in harmony (in agreement) with the rest of the scriptures. But when passages are isolated from the Bible, then the Bible itself will contradict us. That is God's way of teaching us that we're on the wrong doctrinal path and need to make correction.
I agree that all should be in harmony. It is the reason why I think you are wrong. It is possible to forgive without blood, as shown in here:

But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins, then He said to the paralytic, Rising up, lift up your cot and go to your house.
Matt. 9:6

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Re: WHAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT FOR CHRIST TO BE DECLARED THE SON OF GOD?

Post #29

Post by JehovahsWitness »

1213 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:13 pm. It is possible to forgive without blood, as shown in here:

You shouldn't confuse Forgiving (overlooking an offesne) with the atonement for adamic sin.
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Re: WHAT WAS THE REQUIREMENT FOR CHRIST TO BE DECLARED THE SON OF GOD?

Post #30

Post by Eddie Ramos »

1213 wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:13 pm
Eddie Ramos wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:15 am Hebrews 9:22 (KJV 1900)
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission (no forgiveness).


Another way to show you what I mean is, you posted Jeremiah 31:34, but apparently you were not aware that the New Testament also quotes from that same verse, but it does so in the context of bloodshed.

Hebrews 10:12–19 (KJV 1900)
But this man (Christ), after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before(now God is going to quote from the Old Testament), 16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (This part is from Jeremiah 31:33 and verse 17 of Hebrews 10 is quoted from the last part of the very next verse of Jeremiah 33, verse 34) 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission (this word "remission" is the same word "remission" used in Hebrews 9:22 where God ties it into bloodshed) of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (In other words, for true remission to be able to take place, only one offering, one death, one sacrifice was suitable. That was Christ.) 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
That there was blood, does not necessary mean that God demands blood, for to forgive.
Eddie Ramos wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:15 am I hope you can see how understanding something in the context of the scriptures, as a whole, leads us closer to being in harmony (in agreement) with the rest of the scriptures. But when passages are isolated from the Bible, then the Bible itself will contradict us. That is God's way of teaching us that we're on the wrong doctrinal path and need to make correction.
I agree that all should be in harmony. It is the reason why I think you are wrong. It is possible to forgive without blood, as shown in here:

But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins, then He said to the paralytic, Rising up, lift up your cot and go to your house.
Matt. 9:6
It's odd that you agree that there should be harmony and yet ignore the scriptures I gave you. Especially when God says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. But the scriptures you previously posted, which seemed to talk about forgiveness simply by turning from your ways, I showed you how bloodshed was within that context. But instead of taking heed to it, you look for another passage which seems to portray forgiveness without there being bloodshed. But that contradicts the whole of the scriptures (i.e. taking everything into consideration to find one harmonious truth). It also contradicts God's set law:

Romans 6:23 (KJV 1900)
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


And death (the giving up of one's life) is synonymous with bloodshed.

Leviticus 17:11 (KJV 1900)
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


So, when you come across any passage that talks about forgiveness, yet seems to leave out the shedding of blood, we have to keep all the scriptures in mind. Particularly the one that states that there is no forgiveness unless blood has been shed. And since we also know that the bloodshed of any animal sacrifice never did anything to atone for sins, and yet sins were indeed forgiven, then we have to see what other solution God gives for being able to truly forgive sins long before he ever went to the cross. And that solution is:

Revelation 13:8 (KJV 1900)
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


The only solution that harmonizes with the Bible as a whole is that Christ laid down his life from the foundation of the world to make payment for sins, thus making it possible to save and forgive the sins of all his chosen people from the beginning of time. And since God has bound himself to follow his own law which demands death for sin, Christ's death from the foundation of the world has fully satisfied the requirement of that law.

2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV 1900)
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us IN (meaning through) Christ Jesus before the world began,

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