Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

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Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #1

Post by Skeptical »

Doing some research for The Logic of Satan's Temptation to Eve thread, I came across this article:

https://www.gotquestions.org/talking-snake.html

which says:
Still, why didn’t Adam and Eve find it strange that an animal was speaking to them? It is unlikely that Adam and Eve had the same perspective we do on animals. In our era, we know from experience that animals are incapable of speech on the same level as humans. Adam and Eve did not have a childhood, nor did they have other humans to learn from. Given that Adam and Eve had probably only been alive a matter of days, it is not unreasonable for them to believe that animals were capable of speech. It is also possible that this was not the first talking animal Adam and Eve had encountered. Perhaps Satan or even God Himself had used animals to communicate with Adam and Eve before. There are so few details given in the account that much is left to speculation and presumption.


Huh? 🤔

Therefore, I would like to know if there are any other Christians besides the one's from Got Questions who think that it's a possibility that animals used to talk a long time ago back in the Garden of Eden.

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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #51

Post by JoeMama »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #9]

JW,

Do you believe the donkey actually, really DID speak to Balaam, according to the Bible?

If you believe that Balaam was mistaken, and simply THOUGHT the words were coming from the donkey, but they weren't really, can you justify your belief?

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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #52

Post by Skeptical »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:03 pm
Skeptical wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 10:04 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 3:39 am
Skeptical wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 12:06 am Why would God allow such a horrible thing to happen in his Garden of Eden?
The tree was a test. What would be the point of devising a test and not allowing anyone to fail it?
What I'm about to ask may be a bit off topic and I may start a separate thread about it, but why did God even need to test Adam and Eve?
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 3:39 amThe SEPENT (Satan) temptation was not part of God's purpose but it was something that God allowed to see if his children were loyal to Him. Sadly Adam and Eve proved to be disloyal but they had the right to make such a choice.


JW
But how could it had not been part of God's purpose when the whole story fits together like an assembled jigsaw puzzle?
It all fits together the way I see it, also. It doesn't make sense for Jehovah to create humans and then not tell them what is beneficial to them and what is not. He undoubtedly showed them nothing but love.
But how could that have been love if the danger didn't even exist until God made it exist?
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:03 pmThe tree that he said they were to avoid was there to, as Jehovah'sWitness wrote, allow Adam and Eve to show their loyalty to Jehovah.


I see. So, that implies that without this edict, Adam and eve would not have been able to show their loyalty to God. How strange.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:03 pm They had everything they could want, yet they wanted something that wasn't theirs, AND they showed that they did not love or even respect their heavenly Father.
I'm sorry, but I don't get it. Because why would they have not loved or respected God? It makes no sense to me.
onewithhim wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:03 pm They wanted independence from Him. They actually chose death, which is hard to understand, but Satan also chose an end that he knew would come, as he developed a desire to have people and angels worship him (in various ways). Perfect persons can choose what is not good for them....it's a privilege that all intelligent people (and angels) were given, that is, to choose the path they want to walk on.
But what you said in the quote above makes it worse, because why would anyone in their right mind choose death? Especially people supposedly not like us who are not marred with supposedly 6000 years of inherited sin and imperfection. But instead, beings who had perfect minds, bodies, and situations in life. Therefore, what you just said makes that part of the narrative sound even more like a plot device rather than something that really happened.

Also, see a new thread that I started in Christianity and Apologetics: Pain, Peril, and Probability

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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #53

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JoeMama wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:45 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #9]

JW,

Do you believe the donkey actually, really DID speak to Balaam...?
No, animals do not have the gift of intelligent speech; in other words animals cannot talk so it could not have been the donkey that conversed with BALAAM.

Doesn't the bible say the donkey spoke?

Yes, but it does not say where the words that supposedly came out of the donkey's mouth originated. The donkey in the bible account was evidently a dumb beast being maniupulated in a similar way to how a VENTRILOQUIST makes a dummy "speak" by projecting his voice so that he listener is unaware of WHO really is speaking. For example, imagine you could not see the puppeteer below, who would "appear " to be speaking.

Image

This conclusion is supported by the fact that the report reveals a powerful spirit made himself manifest as Baalam was interacting with the animal. Since spirits are invisible a d extremely powerful (and can and do manipulate the physical environment) it would be simple for one to make it APPEAR as if an animal was speaking, when in fact it was effectively "possesed" (controlled) by an unseen spirit.

Image



COULD A SPIRIT CONTROL A DONKEY'S MOUTH?

Please read the account of the demon possessed man of Gerasenes.
MARK 5:3-9

When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones. 6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” 8 For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you impure spirit!” 9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” “My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.”
Who was Jesus conversing with? The poor tortured soul who was possessed or the demons that controlled him? Although the man's mouth no doubt was moving the words that came out of it were not his own. Spirits are incredibly powerful creatures so yes, controlling the movements of a human or a donkey (or a snake for that matter) so they appear to be speaking when are not, would be child's play for them.


JW
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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #54

Post by Skeptical »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:04 am

This conclusion is supported by the fact that the report reveals a powerful spirit made himself manifest as Baalam was interacting with the animal. Since spirits are invisible a d extremely powerful (and can and do manipulate the physical environment) it would be simple for one to make it APPEAR as if an animal was speaking, when in fact it was effectively "possesed" (controlled) by an unseen spirit.


JW
So, now JWs are saying that the serpent in the GoE and Balaam's assterisk were possessed by spirits. Oye vey. 😯

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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #55

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Skeptical wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:22 am So, now JWs are saying that the serpent in the GoE and Balaam's assterisk were possessed by spirits.
To the best of my knowledge that has always been our position.
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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #56

Post by Skeptical »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:27 am
Skeptical wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:22 am So, now JWs are saying that the serpent in the GoE and Balaam's assterisk were possessed by spirits.
To the best of my knowledge that has always been our position.
Well, I guess I learned something new today? 🤔

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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #57

Post by JoeMama »

JW,

The fallacy of "begging the question" occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it.

You are doing this when you assume the existence of an "incredibly powerful spirit" (God) to explain the donkey talking:

The donkey talked, you say, because God made it talk, and you know God can do this because the Bible says so, and the Bible is never wrong.

In fact, you would argue that all of the supernatural events described in the Bible: the curing of the blind, the raising from the dead, the walking on water, the multiplication of the loaves and fishes, Jesus' resurrection, all show that God must exist.

In case I haven't made my point, assuming as your premise that God made the donkey talk is the same as assuming to be true the very thing that is always up for debate in this forum: God's existence. With such a debate strategy, how could you ever lose?

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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #58

Post by JoeMama »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #53]

JW wrote:

Animals do not have the gift of intelligent speech; in other words, animals cannot talk so it could not have been the donkey that conversed with BALAAM.

Joe Mama responds:

So, you believe that the omnipotent God didn't have the ability to make the donkey capable of human speech? I am very surprised. You believe that Jesus could walk on water, heal the blind, and raise folks from the dead, multiply loaves and fishes, make wine from water, expel demons, don't you? but you nevertheless don't think God can make a donkey talk?

Why?

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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #59

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JoeMama wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:30 pm... you assume the existence of an "incredibly powerful spirit" (God) ..
The OP posed a question based on the biblical account; and the answer was provided on the same premise. It is not required to establish whether an account is factual or not to analyse its content. Indeed the thread title invites Christians to share their beliefs; which is what I have done; supplying the basis for said belief. The biblical narrative presents both an all powerful creator and similar spirit beings; my analysis simply made a logical deduction of the author's probable intent in this regard.

Thanks anyway, I will keep your comment in mind should a more appropriate exchange require it. Have a most brilliant evening,

JEHOVAH’S WITNESS


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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jun 05, 2023 6:37 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Do Christians Believe That Animals Used to Talk

Post #60

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JoeMama wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:59 pm
So, you believe that the omnipotent God didn't have the ability to make the donkey capable of human speech? ...
Logically an omnipotent God could, the question is: Is there enough indication in the text under examination that the God of the bible DID?

I believe I presented a contextually solid argument that that was not the case. I have yet to read any convincing counterargument. In fact, looking back over the thread I don't see that anybody raised any counterargument at all, save that a spirit couldn't make a snakes mouth move - which was biblically rebutted. ( After that the thread seems to just have veered of to a discussion of whether it was a snake or a dragon and some of the wider issues of the narrative).


I more or less have stuck to topic; and yet ... no "thank you"!

JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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