Protection of children in schools, USA

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oldbadger
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Protection of children in schools, USA

Post #1

Post by oldbadger »

This my question:-

I've heard about many mass shootings in US schools over recent years.
Assuming that nothing is going to change about gun law at all, does anybody have any positive suggestions for the reduction and deterring of such outrages?

I think that to employ security officers is a good idea if their training, duties, patrols and inspections can be sorted out.
I think that more effective perimeter security could help.
I think that more effective access control would help.

But members...please! What do you think might reduce these mass murders and increase child safety?

NB:- There's not point in arguing for gun controls, because even if guns controls happen, this country is so full of guns that anybody is going to be able to acquire a gun for many decades to come.

So.... does any body have any ideas to offer?

Thank you.

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Re: Protection of children in schools, USA

Post #21

Post by oldbadger »

Athetotheist wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:00 pm First gun control was "decades away", necessitating higher security in schools, and now higher security itself is presumably decades away, necessitating the arming of teachers?
Seems the race to the bottom is speeding up.
Gun control..... decades away........... yes.
Guns awash in the USA................ generations away.
Look, if you don't care about more effective security in schools then you are not going to be much help, methinks.
Selecting a few instances of teacher stupidity with guns cannot tarnish the whole lot.
Who's going to do the training? Police who miss their own targets over half the time in High Anxiety situations?
Now you don't like any police having guns! You're in America, where anybody can get a gun!
Are you saying that your police should not be armed? YES/NO
"How's your insurance?"

"I'm in pretty good shape. I'm covered against fire, flood, tornado, theft, accidentally shooting somebody's kid while aiming at a school intruder....."


And here's just......more:

https://time.com/6182970/good-guys-guns ... gs-uvalde/
More? Look, you don't like armed cops, you don't want armed teachers and you don't want to spend any money on better school security.
So it looks as if shootings in schools will go on. And on..........

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Re: Protection of children in schools, USA

Post #22

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to oldbadger in post #21
Selecting a few instances of teacher stupidity with guns cannot tarnish the whole lot.
Playing Russian Roulette with kids' lives isn't worth it.



"Who's going to do the training? Police who miss their own targets over half the time in High Anxiety situations?"
Now you don't like any police having guns!

.....you don't like armed cops....and you don't want to spend any money on better school security.
Employing strawman exaggeration doesn't answer the question.

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Re: Protection of children in schools, USA

Post #23

Post by oldbadger »

Athetotheist wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:22 am ]Playing Russian Roulette with kids' lives isn't worth it.
Oh....you've all been doing that for decades. No general standard of school security.
"Who's going to do the training? Police who miss their own targets over half the time in High Anxiety situations?"
So pay up for decent school security! A shrouded fence line, very high security access and visitor control and all exterior windows/doors minimum of anti-bandit glazing.
Spend some money!
]Employing strawman exaggeration doesn't answer the question.
No exaggeration according to you ...... you've already shown how you do not trust police with guns.....see above.

And so you are not prepared to do anything towards school security? Dreadful.

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Re: Protection of children in schools, USA

Post #24

Post by Athetotheist »

oldbadger wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:09 am
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:22 am ]Playing Russian Roulette with kids' lives isn't worth it.
Oh....you've all been doing that for decades. No general standard of school security.
"Who's going to do the training? Police who miss their own targets over half the time in High Anxiety situations?"
So pay up for decent school security! A shrouded fence line, very high security access and visitor control and all exterior windows/doors minimum of anti-bandit glazing.
Spend some money!
]Employing strawman exaggeration doesn't answer the question.
No exaggeration according to you ...... you've already shown how you do not trust police with guns.....see above.

And so you are not prepared to do anything towards school security? Dreadful.
More strawmanning. I've clearly indicated that I am not opposed to adequate security. As for "see above", you seem to be quietly conceding that the idea of arming teachers is what's "dreadful".

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Re: Protection of children in schools, USA

Post #25

Post by oldbadger »

Athetotheist wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 2:23 pm]More strawmanning. I've clearly indicated that I am not opposed to adequate security. As for "see above", you seem to be quietly conceding that the idea of arming teachers is what's "dreadful".
Please tell me what a strawman argument is, and show how I have used that....anywhere Can you do that?

Good, you've come round to supporting the upgrading of school security. That's expensive but absolutely necessary. Perimeter fencing which is shrouded is a start, and all windows who look outside the school grounds to be 'anti-bandit' glazed. I do like the idea of professional guards as well.

But let's look at 'armed teachers'..... you've chucked details of stupid incidents down as a reason for denying teachers to be armed across all the counties and states of the US, and you've chucked details of stupid incidents involving armed cops and yet you think it would be daft to disarm them! You use one mindset for teachers yet another for cops. That's daft, isn't it?

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Re: Protection of children in schools, USA

Post #26

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to oldbadger in post #25
Please tell me what a strawman argument is, and show how I have used that....anywhere Can you do that?
Me:

"When there's an incident they tighten the laws, not instead of security but in addition to it. That's how it's done, and it needn't take 'decades'."

"I'm not at all against adequate security for schools, and I'm not at all against spending what money is necessary to have it. The trap is in spending all of our money on a riskier, temporary solution and then being told that we don't have enough to spend on a premanent solution.
"

You:

"And so you are not prepared to do anything towards school security?"


"A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making."

https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and- ... straw-man/

Good, you've come round to supporting the upgrading of school security.
You flatter yourself. As I indicate above----and again----I already supported school security measures. What I'm pointing out is that we have to strike the root and not just the branch. Keeping guns out of the hands of those who would use them for murder is the best way to keep them from it.
You use one mindset for teachers yet another for cops.
Yes, I use two mindsets----because the job of police is to protect while the job of teachers is to teach, and experts in both fields hold that casting teachers in the role of armed protectors can make things worse.

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Re: Protection of children in schools, USA

Post #27

Post by oldbadger »

Athetotheist wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:29 pm "A straw man fallacy occurs when someone takes another person’s argument or point, distorts it or exaggerates it in some kind of extreme way, and then attacks the extreme distortion, as if that is really the claim the first person is making."
....... which you've been doing quite well, I think. :D
Your 'Let's destroy the idea of armed teachers because of a few dangerous incidents'......... distortion ahoy!
Ha ha........ logic = reason fallacy = false what a delightful contradiction in terms when put together. It sounds good, but is very weak.

You flatter yourself. As I indicate above----and again----I already supported school security measures. What I'm pointing out is that we have to strike the root and not just the branch. Keeping guns out of the hands of those who would use them for murder is the best way to keep them from it.
You use one mindset for teachers yet another for cops.
Yes, I use two mindsets----because the job of police is to protect while the job of teachers is to teach, and experts in both fields hold that casting teachers in the role of armed protectors can make things worse.
Excellent! We both agree that the USA needs to tighten up security in all schools. You've just been so cool about the idea before.
And now here you are, still banging on about armed teachers. You're in the USA which is awash with guns. After recent school mass murders I expect that a lot of teachers want to be licensed to conceal-carry a hand-gun. They can go shopping with one, or to a restaurant, but you want to deny them this in scholl......... Half of the USA seems to want to stop you achieving any kind of gun control that would make any difference, and so I think there'll be a lot of teachers who DO want conceal-carry licence in school........until you can achieve that you'll be in limbo.

You've got a vote, and so have all other US citizens........... but so far you've made no difference at all,.

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Re: Protection of children in schools, USA

Post #28

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to oldbadger in post #27
Let's destroy the idea of armed teachers because of a few dangerous incidents
Correct translation: Let's reject the asinine idea of armed teachers because arming teachers makes schools more dangerous.
After recent school mass murders I expect that a lot of teachers want to be licensed to conceal-carry a hand-gun.
Not nearly as many as don't want to.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 258290007/




This took place outside a school. Imagine how much worse it could have been if a bunch of armed teachers had turned the occasion into their own personal Dirty Harry movie.
"....you have a crowd like this, innocent people are going to be caught up in the mayhem...."
Simply returning fire isn't the solution.

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Re: Protection of children in schools, USA

Post #29

Post by oldbadger »

Athetotheist wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:23 pm


This took place outside a school. Imagine how much worse it could have been if a bunch of armed teachers had turned the occasion into their own personal Dirty Harry movie.
Another one? I'm not surprised in the least........ you'll have several more this year. And nothing will be done about any kind of gun control, I expect.
It would be great if the mass of guns in the USA could be reduced, but even then you'll get mass murders like this for decades to come.

You can't moan about some teachers wanting to carry guns in this incident..... because no teachers used a gun as far as I know. A child was knocked over by a car in the mayhem, but if a child had got shot by a passing shopper or teacher you'd be howling that news abroad, eh? :D

Now this all happened outside a school, and if schools had more effective security around them then this event could maybe have been held INSIDE the school?

Do push for gun laws......... that might help in decacdes to come if successful.
Do push fopr a much higher security budget for schools.
Do let teachers carry guns if they are fit to do so.

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Re: Protection of children in schools, USA

Post #30

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to oldbadger in post #29
You can't moan about some teachers wanting to carry guns in this incident..... because no teachers used a gun as far as I know.
.....which is why I also can't----as in, don't have to----moan about some innocent bystander being hit by a stray bullet fired by some teacher.
Now this all happened outside a school, and if schools had more effective security around them then this event could maybe have been held INSIDE the school?
Is that your solution? Fortify schools and leave the mean streets to be mean? Such an event shouldn't have to be tucked away inside for fear of gunfire, and with better gun laws they wouldn't have to be.
Do let teachers carry guns if they are fit to do so.
Here's a little insight into deeming teachers "fit to do so":

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46473321


Do UK teachers carry guns in their schools? From the comments of these British observers, I doubt it:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/arti ... hools.html

Maybe you should try convincing them before you try to convince me.

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