Who Made God?

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boatsnguitars
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Who Made God?

Post #1

Post by boatsnguitars »

It's a fair question to ask how a perfect Being, Omni in every (Good) way, and has all the attributes Theists claim simply happened to exist. The odds of this happening must be staggering.

In fact, imagine how a God - let's say God A - is exactly like OmniGod, but with one ounce of difference in their - oh, let's say sense of beauty. It's 99.999999999% perfect in establishing the objective measure of beauty, but not quite perfect. Would we know? Would we care? What if it was only 60% perfect?
What if anyone of it's attributes were less than 100% - would we know?

Then there are an infinite number of Gods: GodB, GodC.... each with just a little difference. - Yet, Theists can't know which, or explain how they would know if, say, God is Perfect in every way (which is problematic), or just really nice in a few ways that make us Apes very impressed.

I think Theists simply claim God is Perfect, and they try to convince us with an argument that goes: If you can imagine it, it's true. (Ontological Argument)

So, a couple things for Theists to ponder:

1. How do you explain the simple happenstance that a Perfect Being simply exists in it's Perfect, Full Form just as a matter of fact?
2. How do you know God is perfect? (No, claiming the Bible says it doesn't count)
3. How do you know - since God is timeless - that we aren't in the beginning stages of a God being developed. 15 billion years would be a mere blip in time for God, so how do we know we aren't part of God's Evolution? (After all, we have evidence that Evolution exists - not that Beings simply always existed.)
4. How is the answer "God is eternal and doesn't need an explanation" sufficient, but not the same answer for the Big Bang under atheism?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Who Made God?

Post #11

Post by boatsnguitars »

Adonai Yahweh wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 6:34 pm
1. How do you explain the simple happenstance that a Perfect Being simply exists in it's Perfect, Full Form just as a matter of fact?

By applying the principle of causality , cause-effect , if the effect is perfect then the cause if perfect . The big bang perfectly occurred in a way that the earth was formed . Living organisms and non-living were perfectly created that they would naturally evolve with the environment .
How do you know it occured perfectly? It sounds like you are drawing the bullseye around the arrow you randomly shot.
2. How do you know God is perfect? (No, claiming the Bible says it doesn't count)
We judge the designer by the perfection of the design . Big bang perfect , evolution perfect , plant and trees perfect , animals perfect etc ... everything designed has a natural order
How can you judge perfection? Are you perfectly attuned to assess things?
3. How do you know - since God is timeless - that we aren't in the beginning stages of a God being developed. 15 billion years would be a mere blip in time for God, so how do we know we aren't part of God's Evolution? (After all, we have evidence that Evolution exists - not that Beings simply always existed.)

We are not in the beginning stages we are at the end stages , and we can tell that through our the environment is decaying meaning that in the inhabitants of the environment will also decay and die . During the prehistoric period the dinosaurs biodiversity was already declining before the asteroid hit . The earth has had very very near attempt of meteors hitting the earth
Your comment is incoherent. Again, you can't measure God's age: how do you know what stage of development we are in with respect to God's evolution?
4. How is the answer "God is eternal and doesn't need an explanation" sufficient, but not the same answer for the Big Bang under atheism?


God created the big bang compare genesis 1:1-3 " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. " Compare that with what they said about how the big bang started ... it sounds similar .
I have better books to refer to the formation of the universe. Written by far smarter and more educated people that you are referencing.
If you have time check out this video .

[media]https://www.youtube.com/live/CFYswvGoaPU?feature=share[/media]
Ah! You got me! You're a joke! A Poe! You had me for a second. :-D
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Who Made God?

Post #12

Post by boatsnguitars »

Adonai Yahweh wrote: Sat Apr 15, 2023 6:34 pm By applying the principle of causality , cause-effect , if the effect is perfect then the cause if perfect . The big bang perfectly occurred in a way that the earth was formed . Living organisms and non-living were perfectly created that they would naturally evolve with the environment .
I'm perfect!? I always thought so, but it's great to have it confirmed!

But, wait, if God is perfect, then there was something perfect that created God?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Who Made God?

Post #13

Post by Adonai Yahweh »

How do you know it occured perfectly? It sounds like you are drawing the bullseye around the arrow you randomly shot.

If you are familiar with the Big Bang , that shows that it occurred perfectly and this is based on scientific principles and mathematical models

We judge the designer by the perfection of the design . Big bang perfect , evolution perfect , plant and trees perfect , animals perfect etc ... everything designed has a natural order
How can you judge perfection? Are you perfectly attuned to assess things?
We judge the designer by the perfection of the design . You and I are designed perfectly by God

We are not in the beginning stages we are at the end stages , and we can tell that through our the environment is decaying meaning that in the inhabitants of the environment will also decay and die . During the prehistoric period the dinosaurs biodiversity was already declining before the asteroid hit . The earth has had very very near attempt of meteors hitting the earth
Your comment is incoherent. Again, you can't measure God's age: how do you know what stage of development we are in with respect to God's evolution?
Read my comment again , I'm not measuring Gods age but we are in the end times because our environment is declining


God created the big bang compare genesis 1:1-3 " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. " Compare that with what they said about how the big bang started ... it sounds similar . [/quote]
I have better books to refer to the formation of the universe. Written by far smarter and more educated people that you are referencing.
Yet all those books cant account for what force or being caused the Big Bang . The current evidence shows what happened at the moment of the big bang and after the big bang . But you if you do have current evidence that shows what caused the initial singularity or what may have existed before it , kindly share the current evidence then :)

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Re: Who Made God?

Post #14

Post by Adonai Yahweh »

I'm perfect!? I always thought so, but it's great to have it confirmed!

But, wait, if God is perfect, then there was something perfect that created God?
Yes you have been created perfect . No there's only one source creation , having multiple sources of creation would mean that God is not perfect which would also mean that we are not perfect either . One designer , one creation .

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Re: Who Made God?

Post #15

Post by boatsnguitars »

Adonai Yahweh wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:36 pm
I'm perfect!? I always thought so, but it's great to have it confirmed!

But, wait, if God is perfect, then there was something perfect that created God?
Yes you have been created perfect . No there's only one source creation , having multiple sources of creation would mean that God is not perfect which would also mean that we are not perfect either . One designer , one creation .
So everything is perfect?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Who Made God?

Post #16

Post by Adonai Yahweh »

So everything is perfect?
Yes the original design of humans and the environment is perfect . Men and women were designed as intelligent beings . Men been born with a physical advantage are meant to provide and protect women and children . Women being born with an emotional advantage are meant to be caring and nurturing with the also the pride of being able to give life to another human being . Both equipped with intelligence and talent that are beneficial to society . The environment before humans interfered was healthy , there were many forms of life , animals lived in their environment and were able to fully display their primal instincts . What we are seeing in modern times is as a result of people not understanding their purpose . And the purpose can not be determined by the creation but by the creator . Every product that is in the world as a manual .. we also have are products of something and we have a manual and that manual is the bible

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Re: Who Made God?

Post #17

Post by boatsnguitars »

Adonai Yahweh wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:20 pm
So everything is perfect?
Yes the original design of humans and the environment is perfect . Men and women were designed as intelligent beings . Men been born with a physical advantage are meant to provide and protect women and children . Women being born with an emotional advantage are meant to be caring and nurturing with the also the pride of being able to give life to another human being . Both equipped with intelligence and talent that are beneficial to society . The environment before humans interfered was healthy , there were many forms of life , animals lived in their environment and were able to fully display their primal instincts . What we are seeing in modern times is as a result of people not understanding their purpose . And the purpose can not be determined by the creation but by the creator . Every product that is in the world as a manual .. we also have are products of something and we have a manual and that manual is the bible
Perfect like God? Or, less than Gods perfection?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Who Made God?

Post #18

Post by elijahpne »

boatsnguitars wrote: Wed Apr 12, 2023 10:26 am
It's a fair question to ask how a perfect Being, Omni in every (Good) way, and has all the attributes Theists claim simply happened to exist. The odds of this happening must be staggering.

I think Theists simply claim God is Perfect, and they try to convince us with an argument that goes: If you can imagine it, it's true. (Ontological Argument)

So, a couple things for Theists to ponder:

1. How do you explain the simple happenstance that a Perfect Being simply exists in it's Perfect, Full Form just as a matter of fact?
4. How is the answer "God is eternal and doesn't need an explanation" sufficient, but not the same answer for the Big Bang under atheism?
Is the existence of a perfect God who created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) staggering? But consider the alternative: a Universe created not by a perfect God but ex nihilo as claimed by atheists.
"What (Stephen) Hawking says in his book The Grand Design is the universe exists because it needed to exist, and because it needed to exist, it therefore created itself. His conclusion merely restates his premise, which means his argument is circular. Nonsense is nonsense, even when spoken by famous scientists." ~ John Lennox, professor of mathematics at the University of Oxford, England
“The world of strict naturalism in which clever mathematical laws all by themselves bring the universe and life into existence, is pure (and, one might add, poor) fiction. To call it science-fiction would besmirch the name of science" - John Lennox
Yes the alternative is nonsense, pure fiction or myth.

At least the concept of a perfect God presupposes intelligence, a personality, a mind. The mathematical complexity of the physical laws we find in the Universe demands intelligent, purposeful design.

Remarking on the role of mathematics in nature, P. A. M. Dirac states in Scientific American of May 1963:
It seems to be one of the fundamental features of nature that fundamental physical laws are described in terms of a mathematical theory of great beauty and power, needing quite a high standard of mathematics for one to understand it. You may wonder: Why is nature constructed along these lines? One can only answer that our present knowledge seems to show that nature is so constructed. We simply have to accept it.

One could perhaps describe the situation by saying that God is a mathematician of a very high order, and he used very advanced mathematics in constructing the universe. Our feeble attempts at mathematics enable us to understand a bit of the universe, and as we proceed to develop higher and higher mathematics we can hope to understand the universe better. -Dirac, God is a Mathematician https://reasonandscience.catsboard.com/ ... hematician
)
John Lennox sums it up:
“God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence – why there is something rather than nothing.” - John C. Lennox, author of God's Undertaker: Has Science Buried God?
To Christians, there is a First Cause - a perfect God. For atheists, it is Blind Chance which amounts to nothing.

From ChatGPT (Ai): Is it unscientific to believe in a First Cause?
However, it is important to note that science itself does not inherently discount the existence of a First Cause or preclude philosophical or metaphysical discussions surrounding it. Science addresses questions about the natural world and seeks naturalistic explanations, while matters of metaphysics and ultimate origins may lie beyond its purview. Many scientists throughout history have held personal beliefs in a First Cause or a higher power while still adhering to scientific methodology in their work.

Ultimately, whether belief in a First Cause is considered unscientific depends on the epistemological framework one adopts. Science, as a methodological tool, may not provide direct evidence for or against the existence of a First Cause. However, the scientific approach can inform our understanding of the natural world and provide insights into the workings of the universe, even if it does not address questions about ultimate origins or transcendent causes.
So be it.

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Re: Who Made God?

Post #19

Post by boatsnguitars »

elijahpne wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 2:31 am Is the existence of a perfect God who created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) staggering? But consider the alternative: a Universe created not by a perfect God but ex nihilo as claimed by atheists.
You make my point. The universe isn't perfect, it's a hot mess of matter crashing into each other, randomly.

Yet, you claim God simply existed perfectly, for all time with nothing to make it? To perfect it?

How did God just happen, ex nihilo?

That's my problem with your claim. You say it's hard to believe a lumpy, chaotic universe was caused from nothing, but God can just exist, perfectly from nothing.. no wait, just always existed?

Why not believe the basic ingredients needed to make the universe always existed?

Either way, we are still each positing the eternal existence of the necessary, and sufficient cause. Theists push in all their chips and say, " I go all in! I bet the necessary and sufficient cause was perfect, just like the goat herders said!"

That's unbelievable. Literally.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Who Made God?

Post #20

Post by Adonai Yahweh »

Perfect like God? Or, less than Gods perfection?
Our original design is that we are created perfect like God

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