A Look At The Jehovah's Witnesses Religion

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Miles
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A Look At The Jehovah's Witnesses Religion

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.

I came across the following piece in Wikipedia some time ago, and recently remembered how priceless it was and thought I'd share.

"Central to Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs are their interpretations of the second coming of Christ, the millennium and the kingdom of God. Watch Tower Society publications have made, and continue to make, predictions about world events they believe were prophesied in the Bible.[1] Some of those early predictions were described as "established truth",[2] and beyond any doubt.[3] Witnesses are told to "be complete in accepting the visible organization's direction in every aspect" and that there is no need to question what God tells them through his Word and organization since love "believes all things".[4][5][6] If a member advocates views different from what appears in print, they face expulsion.[7][8][9]

Failed predictions that were either explicitly stated or strongly implied, particularly linked to dates in 1914, 1915, 1918, 1925 and 1975, have led to the alteration or abandonment of some teachings. The Society's publications have at times suggested that members had previously "read into the Watch Tower statements that were never intended"[10] or that the beliefs of members were "based on wrong premises".[11] According to Professor Edmond Gruss, other failed predictions were ignored, and replaced with new predictions; for example, in the book, The Finished Mystery (1917), events were applied to the years 1918 to 1925 that earlier had been held to occur prior to 1914. When the new interpretations also did not transpire, the 1926 edition of the book changed the statements and removed the dates.[12]


Predictions (by date of publication) include:

1877: Christ's kingdom would hold full sway over the earth in 1914; the Jews, as a people, would be restored to God's favor; the "saints" would be carried to heaven.[28]
1891: 1914 would be "the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men".[29]
1904: "World-wide anarchy" would follow the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.[30]
1916: World War I would terminate in Armageddon and the rapture of the "saints".[31]
1917: In 1918, Christendom would go down as a system to oblivion and be succeeded by revolutionary governments. God would "destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions". Church members would "perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy". The dead would lie unburied. In 1920 all earthly governments would disappear, with worldwide anarchy prevailing.[32]
1920: Messiah's kingdom would be established in 1925 and bring worldwide peace. God would begin restoring the earth. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful patriarchs would be resurrected to perfect human life and be made princes and rulers, the visible representatives of the New Order on earth. Those who showed themselves obedient to God would never die.[33]
1922: The anti-typical "jubilee" that would mark God's intervention in earthly affairs would take place "probably the fall" of 1925.[34]
1925: God's restoration of Earth would begin "shortly after" October 1, 1925. Jerusalem would be made the world's capital. Resurrected "princes" such as Abel, Noah, Moses and John the Baptist would give instructions to their subjects around the world by radio, and airplanes would transport people to and from Jerusalem from all parts of the globe in just "a few hours".[35]
1938: Armageddon was too close for marriage or child bearing.[36]
1941: There were only "months" remaining until Armageddon.[37]
1942: Armageddon was "immediately before us".[38]
1961: Awake! magazine stated that Armageddon "will come in the twentieth century.... This generation will see its fulfillment."[39]
1966: It would be 6000 years since man's creation in the fall of 1975 and it would be "appropriate" for Christ's thousand-year reign to begin at that time.[40] Time was "running out, no question about that".[41] The "immediate future" was "certain to be filled with climactic events ... within a few years at most", the final parts of Bible prophecy relating to the "last days" would undergo fulfillment as Christ's reign began.
1967: The end-time period (beginning in 1914) was claimed to be so far advanced that the time remaining could "be compared, not just to the last day of a week, but rather, to the last part of that day".[42]
1968: No one could say "with certainty" that the battle of Armageddon would begin in 1975, but time was "running out rapidly" with "earthshaking events" soon to take place.[43] In March 1968 there was a "short period of time left", with "only about ninety months left before 6000 years of man's existence on earth is completed".[44]
1969: The existing world order would not last long enough for young people to grow old; the world system would end "in a few years". Young Witnesses were told not to bother pursuing tertiary education for this reason.[45][46]
1971: The "battle in the day of Jehovah" was described as beginning "[s]hortly, within our twentieth century".[47]
1974: There was just a "short time remaining before the wicked world's end" and Witnesses were commended for selling their homes and property to "finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service".[48]
1984: There were "many indications" that "the end" was closer than the end of the 20th century.[49]
1989: The Watchtower asserted that Christian missionary work begun in the first century would "be completed in our 20th century".[50] When the magazine was republished in bound volumes, the phrase "in our 20th century" was replaced with the less specific "in our day".


It should be noted that on average a new prediction was coming out about every 5 1/2 years, but since 1989, 34 years ago, nada. Can we assume the JW prediction business has since shut down?


QUESTIONS:
1. Should continuing blunders such as these have any bearing on the credibility of a religion? Any religion?
2. What do you think it says about the Jehovah's Witnesses religion?

.



.

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Re: A Look At The Jehovah's Witnesses Religion

Post #61

Post by 2timothy316 »

Ross wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:22 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:04 pm
Ross wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:58 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:35 pm
Ross wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:11 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:47 pm
Yep. I have heard it all and read it all. Even the weird stuff about the pyramids in Egypt and it was once thought that Jehovah was in a particular star cluster. Read my comments, I have not tried to hoodwink anyone. There is nothing that wouldn't surprise me that was said all those years ago. I can only say for certain two things about Jehovah's Witnesses. #1. You will be hard pressed to find another religion that is set on actually finding the truth about God and the Bible. #2 that it is full of imperfect people.

So now what else ya got?
OK thanks for your comments. For clarification, just before we proceed; please correct me if I am wrong:

You knew that your organization, the Governing Body, the WTS, the remnant, your founder Charles Taze Russell had all claimed to be God's prophet, before I drew attention to this in this thread?
The Governing Body, WTS, remnant, Charles Russell are all different things and one doesn't equal the other. That said, yes I did know that there were those that thought they were prophets at the turn of the century. As to that exact definition they felt the word prophet meant in their day is debatable, but it is the word they used back then. Today, JWs have a different understanding as to what is Spirit inspired and what is Spirit led. Our definition of prophet is not the same as wikipedia.

For the way we define prophet go to https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003562
For the way we define spirit led go to https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011921
Thank you.

I note you missed out the organization.

Yet you allowed the erroneous comment by onewithinhim to proceed to truth seekers when you knew his statement was incorrect?

And the defence of the comment by JW.ORG, who backed up onewithinhim, also was not a concern to you?

There was even a link from J.W.ORG on the topic of 'have Jehovah's Witnesses ever claimed to be prophets?' perpetuating false information. I hope that this link will be removed.
I'm taking it you didn't take the time to read the links I posted. Not surprised. You also did not quote exactly what the link said.
Also, organization is not the same as the other things you posted either.
Sorry, but I normally never read links. They are suggestive propaganda rather than one to one communication and debate.
Too bad. Because of this personal policy you keep posting things in ignorance of what Jehovah Witnesses actually believe today compared to the cherry picked sentences from biased posters of what JWs used to believe a hundred years ago...It doesn't seem that you're worried about propaganda as you are swallowing other posters propaganda hook line and sinker.
Also, I understand what all of the segmentations of your religions various characterizations mean. It all comes from the same source and is one accountability.

I note also that you completely evaded my questions.
I don't care about your questions about what concerns me. My personal reasons why I do anything are not up for debate. If you want to discuses accountability then start a new thread about it. But dont just focus JWs. Put that light on everyone, including yourself.

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Re: A Look At The Jehovah's Witnesses Religion

Post #62

Post by Ross »

2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:37 pm
Ross wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:22 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:04 pm
Ross wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:58 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:35 pm
Ross wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:11 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:47 pm
Yep. I have heard it all and read it all. Even the weird stuff about the pyramids in Egypt and it was once thought that Jehovah was in a particular star cluster. Read my comments, I have not tried to hoodwink anyone. There is nothing that wouldn't surprise me that was said all those years ago. I can only say for certain two things about Jehovah's Witnesses. #1. You will be hard pressed to find another religion that is set on actually finding the truth about God and the Bible. #2 that it is full of imperfect people.

So now what else ya got?
OK thanks for your comments. For clarification, just before we proceed; please correct me if I am wrong:

You knew that your organization, the Governing Body, the WTS, the remnant, your founder Charles Taze Russell had all claimed to be God's prophet, before I drew attention to this in this thread?
The Governing Body, WTS, remnant, Charles Russell are all different things and one doesn't equal the other. That said, yes I did know that there were those that thought they were prophets at the turn of the century. As to that exact definition they felt the word prophet meant in their day is debatable, but it is the word they used back then. Today, JWs have a different understanding as to what is Spirit inspired and what is Spirit led. Our definition of prophet is not the same as wikipedia.

For the way we define prophet go to https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003562
For the way we define spirit led go to https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011921
Thank you.

I note you missed out the organization.

Yet you allowed the erroneous comment by onewithinhim to proceed to truth seekers when you knew his statement was incorrect?

And the defence of the comment by JW.ORG, who backed up onewithinhim, also was not a concern to you?

There was even a link from J.W.ORG on the topic of 'have Jehovah's Witnesses ever claimed to be prophets?' perpetuating false information. I hope that this link will be removed.
I'm taking it you didn't take the time to read the links I posted. Not surprised. You also did not quote exactly what the link said.
Also, organization is not the same as the other things you posted either.
Sorry, but I normally never read links. They are suggestive propaganda rather than one to one communication and debate.
Too bad. Because of this personal policy you keep posting things in ignorance of what Jehovah Witnesses actually believe today compared to the cherry picked sentences from biased posters of what JWs used to believe a hundred years ago...It doesn't seem that you're worried about propaganda as you are swallowing other posters propaganda hook line and sinker.
Also, I understand what all of the segmentations of your religions various characterizations mean. It all comes from the same source and is one accountability.

I note also that you completely evaded my questions.
I don't care about your questions about what concerns me. My personal reasons why I do anything are not up for debate. If you want to discuses accountability then start a new thread about it. But dont just focus JWs. Put that light on everyone, including yourself.
Well I guess that response pretty much sums up the modern day Jehovah's Witness. Let the reader decide if he or she want's to become like that.

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Re: A Look At The Jehovah's Witnesses Religion

Post #63

Post by 2timothy316 »

Ross wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:02 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:37 pm
Ross wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:22 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:04 pm
Ross wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:58 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:35 pm
Ross wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:11 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:47 pm
Yep. I have heard it all and read it all. Even the weird stuff about the pyramids in Egypt and it was once thought that Jehovah was in a particular star cluster. Read my comments, I have not tried to hoodwink anyone. There is nothing that wouldn't surprise me that was said all those years ago. I can only say for certain two things about Jehovah's Witnesses. #1. You will be hard pressed to find another religion that is set on actually finding the truth about God and the Bible. #2 that it is full of imperfect people.

So now what else ya got?
OK thanks for your comments. For clarification, just before we proceed; please correct me if I am wrong:

You knew that your organization, the Governing Body, the WTS, the remnant, your founder Charles Taze Russell had all claimed to be God's prophet, before I drew attention to this in this thread?
The Governing Body, WTS, remnant, Charles Russell are all different things and one doesn't equal the other. That said, yes I did know that there were those that thought they were prophets at the turn of the century. As to that exact definition they felt the word prophet meant in their day is debatable, but it is the word they used back then. Today, JWs have a different understanding as to what is Spirit inspired and what is Spirit led. Our definition of prophet is not the same as wikipedia.

For the way we define prophet go to https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003562
For the way we define spirit led go to https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2011921
Thank you.

I note you missed out the organization.

Yet you allowed the erroneous comment by onewithinhim to proceed to truth seekers when you knew his statement was incorrect?

And the defence of the comment by JW.ORG, who backed up onewithinhim, also was not a concern to you?

There was even a link from J.W.ORG on the topic of 'have Jehovah's Witnesses ever claimed to be prophets?' perpetuating false information. I hope that this link will be removed.
I'm taking it you didn't take the time to read the links I posted. Not surprised. You also did not quote exactly what the link said.
Also, organization is not the same as the other things you posted either.
Sorry, but I normally never read links. They are suggestive propaganda rather than one to one communication and debate.
Too bad. Because of this personal policy you keep posting things in ignorance of what Jehovah Witnesses actually believe today compared to the cherry picked sentences from biased posters of what JWs used to believe a hundred years ago...It doesn't seem that you're worried about propaganda as you are swallowing other posters propaganda hook line and sinker.
Also, I understand what all of the segmentations of your religions various characterizations mean. It all comes from the same source and is one accountability.

I note also that you completely evaded my questions.
I don't care about your questions about what concerns me. My personal reasons why I do anything are not up for debate. If you want to discuses accountability then start a new thread about it. But dont just focus JWs. Put that light on everyone, including yourself.
Well I guess that response pretty much sums up the modern day Jehovah's Witness. Let the reader decide if he or she want's to become like that.
Agreed. Those that want to be like those that create threads like this and support them, they wouldn't make it anyway as they are more concerned with the creature and not the Creator.

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Re: A Look At The Jehovah's Witnesses Religion

Post #64

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:29 pm...what was "this prophecy" the Awake! magazine was alluding to? It's the one Charles Taze Russell made in 1877....
FALSE : The AWAKE was alluding to a prophecy JESUS CHRIST made in 33 CE.

See link for details : viewtopic.php?p=1123863#p1123863








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Did JWs confess in a 1972 article to being "Prophets"?
viewtopic.php?p=1045278#p1045278
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: A Look At The Jehovah's Witnesses Religion

Post #65

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:36 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:29 pm...what was "this prophecy" the Awake! magazine was alluding to? It's the one Charles Taze Russell made in 1877....
FALSE : The AWAKE was alluding to a prophecy JESUS CHRIST made in 33 CE.

See link for details : viewtopic.php?p=1123863#p1123863
Hmm. I didn't see any mention of 1914 at all. Sure you got the right verse?

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Re: A Look At The Jehovah's Witnesses Religion

Post #66

Post by onewithhim »

Miles wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:07 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:36 pm
Miles wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 2:29 pm...what was "this prophecy" the Awake! magazine was alluding to? It's the one Charles Taze Russell made in 1877....
FALSE : The AWAKE was alluding to a prophecy JESUS CHRIST made in 33 CE.

See link for details : viewtopic.php?p=1123863#p1123863
Hmm. I didn't see any mention of 1914 at all. Sure you got the right verse?

.
It takes more than one verse to show how 1914 came up on our radar. It takes intense study of the Scriptures, throughout the Bible. It takes a knowledge of when the big tree of Daniel grew back after Nebuchadnezzar was in the fields for 7 literal weeks. That prophecy would extend down to how many literal years are involved until the King of Christ's Kingdom takes his throne. This can be figured out if a person really understands the Scriptures. I'm sure JehovahsWitness has provided excellent links that explain all of that. Did you happen to read what JW wrote? Probably not or you wouldn't seem so confused.

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Re: A Look At The Jehovah's Witnesses Religion

Post #67

Post by Ross »

The very same whacky 'prophets' of the Jehovah God of Jehovah's Witnesses who claimed end times in 1874, 1914, 1818, 1920 and 1925, and pronounced that Bible patriarchs would be resurrected and lead them into a paradise earth after their God's genocidal actions, also came up with the other unbiblical doctrinal beliefs which for the most have never been changed.

When it is said that the movement is humble enough to recognize mistakes and change views, this is incorrect. They were forced to do so when the inevitable passing of time proved the erroneous interpretation of scripture to be absurd. Even 1914 and it's implications and assertions has been stretched beyond belief, after 109 years! Their answer was that the 'generation' that saw the signs who would also see the end was meant to span two generations. There is nothing honest about this; it is hoodwinking in its most gross form.

There was no spirit directed revival of true Christianity from Russell and Rutherford, only falsehood, and this extended to the rest of the wacky doctrines, including denial of the Divinity of the Lord.

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Re: A Look At The Jehovah's Witnesses Religion

Post #68

Post by Ross »

2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:24 pm

Because of this personal policy you keep posting things in ignorance of what Jehovah Witnesses actually believe today compared to the cherry picked sentences from biased posters of what JWs used to believe a hundred years ago...It doesn't seem that you're worried about propaganda as you are swallowing other posters propaganda hook line and sinker.

This is terrible, and indecent spin, deviation from the discussion, and smoke and mirrors. Please allow me to clarify:

One of your colleagues stated that Jehovah's Witnesses or the WTS had NEVER claimed to be prophets.

I proved this to be completely false by quoting Watchtower articles from many time periods up to and including the 1970's. ( Hardly a hundred years ago.)

You now accuse me of cherry picking sentences from decades ago.

How do you perceive and understand the term 'NEVER'?

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Re: A Look At The Jehovah's Witnesses Religion

Post #69

Post by 2timothy316 »

Ross wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 3:12 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:24 pm

Because of this personal policy you keep posting things in ignorance of what Jehovah Witnesses actually believe today compared to the cherry picked sentences from biased posters of what JWs used to believe a hundred years ago...It doesn't seem that you're worried about propaganda as you are swallowing other posters propaganda hook line and sinker.

This is terrible, and indecent spin, deviation from the discussion, and smoke and mirrors. Please allow me to clarify:

One of your colleagues stated that Jehovah's Witnesses or the WTS had NEVER claimed to be prophets.

I proved this to be completely false by quoting Watchtower articles from many time periods up to and including the 1970's. ( Hardly a hundred years ago.)

You now accuse me of cherry picking sentences from decades ago.

How do you perceive and understand the term 'NEVER'?
Did you read the links I posted earlier? If you did and understood them then you wouldn't be posting this. But is seems from the above you have not idea what you're talking about. Or at least you'd be asking me about what I posted....but you're not. You will keep posting in ignorance until you read the links I posted. And if you say, 'what links are you talking about', I will not post them again and do your work for you because you don't like to read for whatever excuse you give me. I don't care about your post until you inform yourself. Stop the excuses and read or don't and stay in ignorance so that I can keep pointing it out. Or are you scared of what JWs publish? Maybe that is it? Scared of finding out that you're wrong? Is that why do you will not read the links I posted? If you don't respond to the info I pointed to then I have to accept you're scared. I await your excuse to staying ignorant of what JWs actually believe today in 2023.

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Re: A Look At The Jehovah's Witnesses Religion

Post #70

Post by Ross »

2timothy316 wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 9:26 pm
Ross wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 3:12 pm
2timothy316 wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 4:24 pm

Because of this personal policy you keep posting things in ignorance of what Jehovah Witnesses actually believe today compared to the cherry picked sentences from biased posters of what JWs used to believe a hundred years ago...It doesn't seem that you're worried about propaganda as you are swallowing other posters propaganda hook line and sinker.

This is terrible, and indecent spin, deviation from the discussion, and smoke and mirrors. Please allow me to clarify:

One of your colleagues stated that Jehovah's Witnesses or the WTS had NEVER claimed to be prophets.

I proved this to be completely false by quoting Watchtower articles from many time periods up to and including the 1970's. ( Hardly a hundred years ago.)

You now accuse me of cherry picking sentences from decades ago.

How do you perceive and understand the term 'NEVER'?
Did you read the links I posted earlier? If you did and understood them then you wouldn't be posting this. But is seems from the above you have not idea what you're talking about. Or at least you'd be asking me about what I posted....but you're not. You will keep posting in ignorance until you read the links I posted. And if you say, 'what links are you talking about', I will not post them again and do your work for you because you don't like to read for whatever excuse you give me. I don't care about your post until you inform yourself. Stop the excuses and read or don't and stay in ignorance so that I can keep pointing it out. Or are you scared of what JWs publish? Maybe that is it? Scared of finding out that you're wrong? Is that why do you will not read the links I posted? If you don't respond to the info I pointed to then I have to accept you're scared. I await your excuse to staying ignorant of what JWs actually believe today in 2023.
It is amusing to me that you think I am scared.

I browsed through your 'links' which contain pretty much exactly what I expected to see. And yes of course in 2023 and earlier, history has forced the movement ( WTS, Charles Taze Russell, Jehovah's visible organization on earth, remnant of anointed Jehovah's Witnesses, Governing Body, ( call it whatever you will )) to adjust it's views on it's previous claim to be the modern day prophet of God.

This does not though change the erroneous claim by one of your associates within this thread that the WTS never claimed to be prophets. You cant whitewash historical facts by providing propaganda spin in the form of Watchtower links.

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