Democrats for DeSantis

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historia
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Democrats for DeSantis

Post #1

Post by historia »

Consider this argument:
  • PREMISE 1: Donald Trump poses a unique threat to American democracy.
  • PREMISE 2: One of the major ways to avert that threat is for Trump to lose the Republican nomination for president.
  • PREMISE 3: Ron DeSantis has the best chance to defeat Trump in the Republican primary.
  • CONCLUSION: Democrats, Independents, and "never Trump" Republicans should support DeSantis in the Republican primary.
Question for debate:

Do you agree with the above argument?

If not, which premises (or assumptions underlying them) do you think are wrong?

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Re: Democrats for DeSantis

Post #2

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to historia in post #1

DeSantis is Trump with brains. He could turn out to be considerably worse.

The Dems should stay out of GOP primaries. They've done so badly with their own candidates that no one should trust them to pull off any clever move. They either screw everything up or don't try at all.

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Re: Democrats for DeSantis

Post #3

Post by Miles »

historia wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:58 pm Consider this argument:
  • PREMISE 1: Donald Trump poses a unique threat to American democracy.
  • PREMISE 2: One of the major ways to avert that threat is for Trump to lose the Republican nomination for president.
  • PREMISE 3: Ron DeSantis has the best chance to defeat Trump in the Republican primary.
  • CONCLUSION: Democrats, Independents, and "never Trump" Republicans should support DeSantis in the Republican primary.
Why should they? After all, he's a nut case, and while Republicans have been known to support nut cases, Democrats have not.

b]Question for debate[/b]:

Do you agree with the above argument?

If not, which premises (or assumptions underlying them) do you think are wrong?
Well, all the statements appear to be reasonable; however, they and your conclusion hardy make up an argument.

As for your conclusion: "Democrats, Independents, and "never Trump" Republicans should support DeSantis in the Republican primary," keep in mind that Democrats can only vote in a Republican primary it they reside in one of the 15 states with an open primary.



.

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Re: Democrats for DeSantis

Post #4

Post by boatsnguitars »

historia wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:58 pm Consider this argument:
  • PREMISE 1: Donald Trump poses a unique threat to American democracy.
  • PREMISE 2: One of the major ways to avert that threat is for Trump to lose the Republican nomination for president.
  • PREMISE 3: Ron DeSantis has the best chance to defeat Trump in the Republican primary.
  • CONCLUSION: Democrats, Independents, and "never Trump" Republicans should support DeSantis in the Republican primary.
Question for debate:

Do you agree with the above argument?

If not, which premises (or assumptions underlying them) do you think are wrong?
Oh, Hell no. The last thing we need to do as Dems is legitimize any of the nut cases in the GOP. They are clearly lost/corrupt/insane/immoral/incompetent/power-hungry/bigoted/hateful/misogynist/racist/irresponsible/dangerous, and I wouldn't want any of their stink on me.

We have a lot of great people in the Dem Party and we should improve our messaging, not play dangerous political games. (That said, I realize politics is a horribly dangerous and complex game - so, sure, we should try to undermine GOP candidates as much as possible - but not by giving them support).

Trump is going down. He won't be re-elected. His come-uppance has arrived. Mark my words.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Democrats for DeSantis

Post #5

Post by Clownboat »

boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:51 am Oh, Hell no. The last thing we need to do as Dems is legitimize any of the nut cases in the GOP. They are clearly lost/corrupt/insane/immoral/incompetent/power-hungry/bigoted/hateful/misogynist/racist/irresponsible/dangerous, and I wouldn't want any of their stink on me.

We have a lot of great people in the Dem Party and we should improve our messaging, not play dangerous political games. (That said, I realize politics is a horribly dangerous and complex game - so, sure, we should try to undermine GOP candidates as much as possible - but not by giving them support).

Trump is going down. He won't be re-elected. His come-uppance has arrived. Mark my words.
I notice that often people talk passionately about politics like some do about their preferred god concept. I assume humans use the same part of our brains for both and we should be cautious to not let our emotions control out thinking.

Next thing we know, we (internally) don't even have to consider the other sides positions. Why would we when they deserve hell, or have been led astray by a devil, or why would we if they are nothing but lost/corrupt/insane/immoral/incompetent/power-hungry/bigoted/hateful/misogynist/racist/irresponsible and dangerous?

I also note that Us vs Them thinking is cult behavior often employed to provide something for the group to unite against. I would hate to see religious types of reasoning being used in politics is all I'm getting at. I'm certainly not defending politicians or a specific party by the way. I'm sure we would all agree that we don't need "slay the infidel" type of reasoning to enter into the equation.
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Re: Democrats for DeSantis

Post #6

Post by boatsnguitars »

Clownboat wrote: Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:22 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:51 am Oh, Hell no. The last thing we need to do as Dems is legitimize any of the nut cases in the GOP. They are clearly lost/corrupt/insane/immoral/incompetent/power-hungry/bigoted/hateful/misogynist/racist/irresponsible/dangerous, and I wouldn't want any of their stink on me.

We have a lot of great people in the Dem Party and we should improve our messaging, not play dangerous political games. (That said, I realize politics is a horribly dangerous and complex game - so, sure, we should try to undermine GOP candidates as much as possible - but not by giving them support).

Trump is going down. He won't be re-elected. His come-uppance has arrived. Mark my words.
I notice that often people talk passionately about politics like some do about their preferred god concept. I assume humans use the same part of our brains for both and we should be cautious to not let our emotions control out thinking.

Next thing we know, we (internally) don't even have to consider the other sides positions. Why would we when they deserve hell, or have been led astray by a devil, or why would we if they are nothing but lost/corrupt/insane/immoral/incompetent/power-hungry/bigoted/hateful/misogynist/racist/irresponsible and dangerous?

I also note that Us vs Them thinking is cult behavior often employed to provide something for the group to unite against. I would hate to see religious types of reasoning being used in politics is all I'm getting at. I'm certainly not defending politicians or a specific party by the way. I'm sure we would all agree that we don't need "slay the infidel" type of reasoning to enter into the equation.
I would agree if it weren't for the obvious insanity surrounding the GOP, and the fact that my advocating for my position is in an effort to make changes in the real world, not based on a vague faith in some supernatural means.
Our representative government is often frustrating, but I know that in voting for Obama with the other majority allowed people I love to marry when the GOP complained that they shouldn't.
Your position is just as much an "Us v Them". I don't know if you vote or not, but "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice".
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: Democrats for DeSantis

Post #7

Post by Clownboat »

boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Jun 16, 2023 3:00 am I would agree if it weren't for the obvious insanity surrounding the GOP,
I doesn't seem that I can have a political discussion with you for the reasons I alluded to earlier.
Be well and I trust those insane GOP people wont get you in your sleep tonight.
Your position is just as much an "Us v Them".
You would need to show that you speak the truth as I understand Us vs Them to be cult thinking and strive (not always successfully) to avoid such reasoning.
For clarity, my position was (copy/paste): "I notice that often people talk passionately about politics like some do about their preferred god concept. I assume humans use the same part of our brains for both and we should be cautious to not let our emotions control out thinking."

I avoid such reasoning because as I said, it is all to easy to label the other side as lost/corrupt/insane/immoral/incompetent/power-hungry/bigoted/hateful/misogynist/racist/irresponsible and then I don't even have to consider an opposing position if it in fact it might have some merit. The Us's get more 'us' and the Them's get more 'them' and the division only increases.

I'm not here to tell you how to politics though. You do you.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: Democrats for DeSantis

Post #8

Post by historia »

Miles wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 11:34 pm
historia wrote: Thu Jun 08, 2023 7:58 pm Consider this argument:
  • PREMISE 1: Donald Trump poses a unique threat to American democracy.
  • PREMISE 2: One of the major ways to avert that threat is for Trump to lose the Republican nomination for president.
  • PREMISE 3: Ron DeSantis has the best chance to defeat Trump in the Republican primary.
  • CONCLUSION: Democrats, Independents, and "never Trump" Republicans should support DeSantis in the Republican primary.
Why should they?
See PREMISE 1.
Miles wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 11:34 pm
As for your conclusion: "Democrats, Independents, and "never Trump" Republicans should support DeSantis in the Republican primary," keep in mind that Democrats can only vote in a Republican primary it they reside in one of the 15 states with an open primary.
"Support" can include donations or volunteering.

Also, the first primaries are nine months away. Independents and Democrats have plenty of time to register as Republicans in order to vote in the Republican primary, especially when the Democratic presidential primary will likely not be competitive, given they have the incumbent.

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Re: Democrats for DeSantis

Post #9

Post by historia »

Athetotheist wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 10:53 pm
DeSantis is Trump with brains. He could turn out to be considerably worse.
So you disagree with PREMISE 1?

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Re: Democrats for DeSantis

Post #10

Post by historia »

boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:51 am
We have a lot of great people in the Dem Party and we should improve our messaging, not play dangerous political games.
What "danger" comes from helping DeSantis defeat Trump in the Republican primary?

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