God's Need for Loyalty?

[Skeptical]

I know that it has been argued and debated that God had to test Adam and Eve in order to see if they were loyal to him or not, but could the human race have gotten along alright if God didn't have the need to know what their loyalty was? Because it still hasn't been adequately explained as to why God needed to be sure of the first human pair's loyalty. However, it has only been dogmatically said that this is what God wanted. Therefore, could humankind had still been successful without a test of loyalty to God, or is this something that God needed to make himself feel more secure? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Skeptical]

God doesn't need their loyalty but they needed to be loyal to the One that gave them life and all the good things they had as He had already shown His loyalty to them by they good things they already had, including an entire planet.

Of course, he needed their loyalty... In order for his original purpose for earth and humankind to be fulfilled. He needed Jesus' loyalty, he needed his servants' loyalty because if not, then that would have made God a liar or a failure as far as his original purpose is concerned.

If everyone stopped being loyal nothing happens to God. Do you understand the difference between need and want? Need would mean that God can't go on without loyalty. Want is He can go on with or without our loyalty. You do realize that He could take away freewill and force everyone to do what He WANTS, right?

Well, I guess Isaiah 55:11 in combination with Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18, and 2 Timothy 2:13:

13 if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.

doesn't mean anything? Because even if what you are saying is true, then that would still make God a liar. Yes, no?

Jehovah didn't need Nebuchadnezzar to be loyal for the prophecy for him to act like an animal for 7 years to come true. Dan 4:25. There doesn't have to be any loyal people to preach the Good News either to accomplish what God wants. Luke 19:40.

But Luke 19:40 isn't talking about the loyalty of God's people; it is referring to his people being quieted or silenced for whatever reason. Therefore, that scripture doesn't apply to what we are talking about.

Before Jesus was born even if every Jew was to stop being loyal and stop having children to discontinue the line of Abraham, that wouldn't stop God's purpose. Matthew 3:9.

lol I don't mean to laugh to mock you, but Matthew 3:9 is saying that if the children of Abraham weren't loyal to him, then he could create more children of Abraham out of stones who would be loyal to him. lol

There is nothing Jehovah needs from anyone to accomplish His will and nothing can stop Him.

Sorry... But that's not what the Bible says.

[2timothy316]

God doesn't need their loyalty but they needed to be loyal to the One that gave them life and all the good things they had as He had already shown His loyalty to them by they good things they already had, including an entire planet.

Of course, he needed their loyalty... In order for his original purpose for earth and humankind to be fulfilled. He needed Jesus' loyalty, he needed his servants' loyalty because if not, then that would have made God a liar or a failure as far as his original purpose is concerned.

If everyone stopped being loyal nothing happens to God. Do you understand the difference between need and want? Need would mean that God can't go on without loyalty. Want is He can go on with or without our loyalty. You do realize that He could take away freewill and force everyone to do what He WANTS, right?

Well, I guess Isaiah 55:11 in combination with Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18, and 2 Timothy 2:13

13 if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.

doesn't mean anything? Because even if what you are saying is true, then that would still make God a liar. Yes, no?

What would be the lie?

Jehovah didn't need Nebuchadnezzar to be loyal for the prophecy for him to act like an animal for 7 years to come true. Dan 4:25. There doesn't have to be any loyal people to preach the Good News either to accomplish what God wants. Luke 19:40.

But Luke 19:40 isn't talking about the loyalty of God's people; it is referring to his people being quieted for whatever reason. Therefore, that scripture doesn't apply to what we are talking about.

Right, "for whatever reason" as you said. Including if no one was loyal enough to continue to preach. You're missing the point. Nothing can stop the preaching work.

Before Jesus was born even if every Jew was to stop being loyal and stop having children to discontinue the line of Abraham, that wouldn't stop God's purpose. Matthew 3:9.

lol I don't mean to laugh to mock you, but Matthew 3:9 is saying that if the children of Abraham weren't loyal to him, then he could create more children of Abraham who would be loyal to him. lol

That is correct. Make children from rocks. Again, pointing to nothing can stop God's purpose even a lack of loyalty. Your finding humor in it doesn't matter to me.

There is nothing Jehovah needs from anyone to accomplish His will and nothing can stop Him.

Sorry... But that's not what the Bible says.

Really? Acts 17:25

New International Version
And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

New Living Translation
and human hands can’t serve his needs—for he has no needs. He himself gives life and breath to everything, and he satisfies every need.

English Standard Version
nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.

Berean Standard Bible
Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

Berean Literal Bible
nor is He served by hands of men as needing anything, Himself giving to all life and breath and everything.

King James Bible
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

New King James Version
Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

New American Standard Bible
nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

[Skeptical]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #10]
Its not a stawman, its that if you look at mankind's history your question has been answered that God doesn't need our loyalty but apparently you can't see it. It is us that need to be loyal to him if we want a better world.

So, I guess the scriptures that I quoted at Isaiah 55:11 and Job 2:3-5 don't apply to this? Yes, no?

The scriptures you quoted do not prove God needs loyalty. If the quote from Isaiah proves anything it is that what He WANTS to happen will happen.

So, could you explain to me what exactly what it was that God wanted to make happen?

Not sure you point on Job. He was loyal but it doesn't say anywhere that Jehovah NEED his loyalty.

Well, perhaps this is something that the JWs at this forum don't know about. Or perhaps this is something that has changed over the years...

However, I found a kind of long article at jw.org that confirms what I am saying. But here is a quote from it that summarizes what I've been trying to say to you:

14. What can we learn from Job’s experience?

14 We too can acquire proper perspective and gain comfort from the account of Job. After all, Jehovah had it preserved “for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.” (Rom. 15:4) What is the lesson for us? Primarily this: Let us not become so absorbed in our own lives that we lose sight of this big issue—the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty. And let us appreciate that our role in this vital issue entails remaining faithful even under difficult circumstances, as did Job.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... vereignty/

It seems you're under the impression that God needs humans, angels, etc. They could all be gone tomorrow and Jehovah will keep going un-phased. There is no scripture that says God needs anything for His benefit, so that he can keep living, or needs anything at all.

Now you're leaning into strawman territory because I never said anything about God needing to keep on living. However, all the other things that you mentioned, I address them in this post.

[Skeptical]

[Replying to Wootah in post #5]
It seems they were being tested on what they would do with their freedom of choice. Obey and live or rebel and die.

Well, as I pointed out in my post #11, there never would have been an issue of rebelling and dying until God himself made that an issue.

Where do you read that in the Bible? Or is this an opinion? How do you know that a test to obey wasn't always in God's plan even before they were created? Scripture please.

But what difference would it have made if 'a test to obey was always in God's plan even before they were created'? Because (and to answer your first question) Genesis 2:17 clearly shows that there never would have been an issue of rebelling and dying until God himself made that an issue... Or is verse 17 an idea that God had gotten from someone else?

Again, you're speculating, "there never would have been an issue of rebelling". Where did you learn this? Not the Bible.

I think that you are misunderstanding what I am saying. But to put in other words, Adam and Eve and no one else would have even thought about rebelling and dying, if God had not have brought it up in the first place in Genesis 2:17. I hope you understand better what I was trying to say.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #10]
Its not a stawman, its that if you look at mankind's history your question has been answered that God doesn't need our loyalty but apparently you can't see it. It is us that need to be loyal to him if we want a better world.

So, I guess the scriptures that I quoted at Isaiah 55:11 and Job 2:3-5 don't apply to this? Yes, no?

The scriptures you quoted do not prove God needs loyalty. If the quote from Isaiah proves anything it is that what He WANTS to happen will happen.

So, could you explain to me what exactly what it was that God wanted to make happen?

Whatever you think He needed to happen. For every thought you have where you think that God needs something, throw it out.

Not sure you point on Job. He was loyal but it doesn't say anywhere that Jehovah NEED his loyalty.

Well, perhaps this is something that the JWs at this forum don't know about. Or perhaps this is something that has changed over the years...

However, I found a kind of long article at jw.org that confirms what I am saying. But here is a quote from it that summarizes what I've been trying to say to you:

14. What can we learn from Job’s experience?

14 We too can acquire proper perspective and gain comfort from the account of Job. After all, Jehovah had it preserved “for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.” (Rom. 15:4) What is the lesson for us? Primarily this: Let us not become so absorbed in our own lives that we lose sight of this big issue—the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty. And let us appreciate that our role in this vital issue entails remaining faithful even under difficult circumstances, as did Job.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... vereignty/

How does this prove your point that God needs loyalty? He is using loyal people to make His case to vindicate His sovereignty but that is His choice. But you're acting like its His only choice, but that is what you're reading into it but something that the article doesn't actually say. Are you aware what eisegesis is? Its where you make a statement then go find text and then claim it supports your statement. Is the article about that God needs loyalty? No. But you made it about that by prefacing it with your statement. This a flawed why to prove an argument.
https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html

It seems you're under the impression that God needs humans, angels, etc. They could all be gone tomorrow and Jehovah will keep going un-phased. There is no scripture that says God needs anything for His benefit, so that he can keep living, or needs anything at all.

Now you're leaning into strawman territory because I never said anything about God needing to keep on living. However, all the other things that you mentioned, I address them in this post.

With this statement, I still don't think you understand what a need is.

[Skeptical]

God doesn't need their loyalty but they needed to be loyal to the One that gave them life and all the good things they had as He had already shown His loyalty to them by they good things they already had, including an entire planet.

Of course, he needed their loyalty... In order for his original purpose for earth and humankind to be fulfilled. He needed Jesus' loyalty, he needed his servants' loyalty because if not, then that would have made God a liar or a failure as far as his original purpose is concerned.

If everyone stopped being loyal nothing happens to God. Do you understand the difference between need and want? Need would mean that God can't go on without loyalty. Want is He can go on with or without our loyalty. You do realize that He could take away freewill and force everyone to do what He WANTS, right?

Well, I guess Isaiah 55:11 in combination with Titus 1:2, Hebrews 6:18, and 2 Timothy 2:13

13 if we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny himself.

doesn't mean anything? Because even if what you are saying is true, then that would still make God a liar. Yes, no?

What would be the lie?

Quote all those verses in your next reply post and the answer will be there.

Jehovah didn't need Nebuchadnezzar to be loyal for the prophecy for him to act like an animal for 7 years to come true. Dan 4:25. There doesn't have to be any loyal people to preach the Good News either to accomplish what God wants. Luke 19:40.

But Luke 19:40 isn't talking about the loyalty of God's people; it is referring to his people being quieted for whatever reason. Therefore, that scripture doesn't apply to what we are talking about.

Right, "for whatever reason" as you said. Including if no one was loyal enough to continue to preach. You're missing the point. Nothing can stop the preaching work.

But that is not what Luke 19:40 is saying. Because if you look at the context of that verse at Luke 19:37-40, it says:

37 When He was coming near the descent of the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with loud voices for all the mighty works that they had seen, 38 saying:

‘Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord!’[a]
Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!”

39 Some of the Pharisees from the crowd said to Him, “Teacher, rebuke Your disciples.”

40 He answered them, “I tell you, if these should be silent, the stones would immediately cry out.”

Therefore, the context clearly shows that what is being referred to is if Jesus' followers had been quieted/silenced/rebuked, then God would find another way for his message to get out. Plus, I only mentioned "for whatever reason" (something that I said and not the Bible) because I do realize that JWs have the belief that they are being persecuted, and will be persecuted during the great tribulation where they believe might involve being jailed, silenced, or tortured, etc. Therefore, you are taking something that I said (and is not the Bible) and using it in a way that I did not intend for it to be used.

Before Jesus was born even if every Jew was to stop being loyal and stop having children to discontinue the line of Abraham, that wouldn't stop God's purpose. Matthew 3:9.

lol I don't mean to laugh to mock you, but Matthew 3:9 is saying that if the children of Abraham weren't loyal to him, then he could create more children of Abraham who would be loyal to him. lol

That is correct. Make children from rocks. Again, pointing to nothing can stop God's purpose even a lack of loyalty. Your finding humor in it doesn't matter to me.

But wouldn't God then require loyalty from the new children of Abraham whom he created from rocks? Yes, or?

Also, I'll continue in another post because this old forum software is making it too difficult to align all the quotes up correctly.

[Skeptical]

continued from my previous reply:

There is nothing Jehovah needs from anyone to accomplish His will and nothing can stop Him.

Sorry... But that's not what the Bible says.

Really? Acts 17:25

New International Version
And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

New Living Translation
and human hands can’t serve his needs—for he has no needs. He himself gives life and breath to everything, and he satisfies every need.

English Standard Version
nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything.

Berean Standard Bible
Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.

Berean Literal Bible
nor is He served by hands of men as needing anything, Himself giving to all life and breath and everything.

King James Bible
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

New King James Version
Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

New American Standard Bible
nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

Well, I think that all the verses that I used trumped the one verse that you used (with multiple renderings)... Either that, or the Bible contradicts itself. (Also, I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but this old forum software is very time consuming trying to get all the quotes lined up right. )

[JehovahsWitness]

..., could humankind had still been successful without a test of loyalty to God...?

No, I do not think so.



Biblically, humans were not created to self govern and Adam and Eve needed to recognise that to be happy. Had Jehovah (God) not brought this issue into focus by having a symbol of their ultimate dependence on Him, society would have eventually thrown up human rulers in the void. The human race would have ended right where we are now...alienated from God and suffering from human self-rule.



In short, Adam and Eve are tested and there is the chance of eternal happiness for the loyal. Adam and Eve are NOT tested and there is no chance. The tree was a symbol of God's involvement with the human race; his right to ask the "What are you doing" and their obligation to respond.

If you'd like to see a world when God withdraws and claims not part of it, just looked around. How's that working out for us ?!




RELATED POSTS

Were Adam and Eve being tested?
viewtopic.php?p=1092257#p1092256

[Skeptical]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #10]
Its not a stawman, its that if you look at mankind's history your question has been answered that God doesn't need our loyalty but apparently you can't see it. It is us that need to be loyal to him if we want a better world.

So, I guess the scriptures that I quoted at Isaiah 55:11 and Job 2:3-5 don't apply to this? Yes, no?

The scriptures you quoted do not prove God needs loyalty. If the quote from Isaiah proves anything it is that what He WANTS to happen will happen.

So, could you explain to me what exactly what it was that God wanted to make happen?

Whatever you think He needed to happen. For every thought you have where you think that God needs something, throw it out.

lol But you didn't even answer my question. lol

Not sure you point on Job. He was loyal but it doesn't say anywhere that Jehovah NEED his loyalty.

Well, perhaps this is something that the JWs at this forum don't know about. Or perhaps this is something that has changed over the years...

However, I found a kind of long article at jw.org that confirms what I am saying. But here is a quote from it that summarizes what I've been trying to say to you:

14. What can we learn from Job’s experience?

14 We too can acquire proper perspective and gain comfort from the account of Job. After all, Jehovah had it preserved “for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.” (Rom. 15:4) What is the lesson for us? Primarily this: Let us not become so absorbed in our own lives that we lose sight of this big issue—the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty. And let us appreciate that our role in this vital issue entails remaining faithful even under difficult circumstances, as did Job.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... vereignty/

How does this prove your point that God needs loyalty? He is using loyal people to make His case to vindicate His sovereignty but that is His choice.

I see. So, are you saying that God could choose another way to make His case to vindicate His sovereignty? And to vindicate it to whom? Also, you do know what the word "vindicate" means, right?

to clear, as from an accusation, imputation, suspicion, or the like:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/vindicate

But you're acting like its His only choice, but that is what you're reading into it but something that the article doesn't actually say.

So, what are His other choices? Please educate me.

Are you aware what eisegesis is? Its where you make a statement then go find text and then claim it supports your statement. Is the article about that God needs loyalty? No. But you made it about that by prefacing it with your statement. This a flawed why to prove an argument.
https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html

I know what eisegesis is. However, the jw.org article speaks for itself. You can even ask another JW about that. Also, how could God have vindicated himself without loyalty? Please educate me.

It seems you're under the impression that God needs humans, angels, etc. They could all be gone tomorrow and Jehovah will keep going un-phased. There is no scripture that says God needs anything for His benefit, so that he can keep living, or needs anything at all.

Now you're leaning into strawman territory because I never said anything about God needing to keep on living. However, all the other things that you mentioned, I address them in this post.

With this statement, I still don't think you understand what a need is.

No... What I don't understand is why you said:

There is no scripture that says God needs anything for His benefit, so that he can keep living.

Because since God is supposed to be eternal, how does making that point add to what you're saying? How is that point even relevant? Unless you meant so that he could keep being happy, content, and satisfied. Because right now (especially during the Old Testament period with rebellious Israel) God doesn't seem content, happy, and satisfied. (Proverbs 27:11)

[Wootah]

..., could humankind had still been successful without a test of loyalty to God...?

No, I do not think so.



Biblically, humans were not created to self govern and Adam and Eve needed to recognise that to be happy. Had Jehovah (God) not brought this issue into focus by having a symbol of their ultimate dependence on Him, society would have eventually thrown up human rulers in the void. The human race would have ended right where we are now...alienated from God and suffering from human self-rule.

In short, Adam and Eve are tested and there is the chance of eternal happiness for the loyal. Adam and Eve are NOT tested and there is no chance. The tree was a symbol of God's involvement with the human race; his right to ask the "What are you doing" and their obligation to respond.

If you'd like to see a world when God withdraws and claims not part of the world, just looked around. How's that working out ?!

Do JWs think that given time and if done appropriately that God would have let Adam & Eve eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?