Conscience: A Difficult Question

[Purple Knight]

Question for Debate: Which side is God on?

The dilemma: The religion you believe to be the true one teaches something your conscience disagrees with, even after studying and trying to resolve the issue. Should you:
1. Accept that God knows more than you do, and follow the teaching out of humility.
2. Reject the teaching and follow your conscience.

Which option do you think God endorses and why?

This dilemma is why I feel I can prove morality has to be something that is not dependent on intellect to understand. If the stupid people are only following it out of humility, then it fails, because if they think it's wrong and are deferring to someone else to understand that it's not, they might as well be deferring to Nazis. If "god says" should convince them when their conscience says otherwise, then people will use "god says" to convince them to do evil, and nobody will break free of evil influence if the evildoers at the top simply peddle, "I know best."

However, sometimes I also feel that people who disagree with a moral principle should look at the society that principle buys, and leave people alone who want to live like that, as long as they provide right of exit.

[Miles]

Question for Debate: Which side is God on?

The dilemma: The religion you believe to be the true one teaches something your conscience disagrees with, even after studying and trying to resolve the issue. Should you:
1. Accept that God knows more than you do, and follow the teaching out of humility.
2. Reject the teaching and follow your conscience.

Which option do you think God endorses and why?

2. Reject the teaching and follow your conscience because god is not always right---he's even admitted to having made a few mistakes---and while following your conscience may not always turn out right, at least to your own self you've been true. (God had a lot of respect for Shakespeare.)


.

[Purple Knight]

2. Reject the teaching and follow your conscience because god is not always right---he's even admitted to having made a few mistakes---and while following your conscience may not always turn out right, at least to your own self you've been true.

If 2 is correct then there's not a lot of need for religion.

It could serve a purpose in organising moral thought, putting forth rules that will track with what your conscience will tell you with a little examination and even guide you in that examination, but if after that examination, it doesn't track, then that religion ought to be rejected.

[Miles]

2. Reject the teaching and follow your conscience because god is not always right---he's even admitted to having made a few mistakes---and while following your conscience may not always turn out right, at least to your own self you've been true.

If 2 is correct then there's not a lot of need for religion.

I certainly haven't found any.

It could serve a purpose in organising moral thought, putting forth rules that will track with what your conscience will tell you with a little examination and even guide you in that examination, but if after that examination, it doesn't track, then that religion ought to be rejected.

Agreed. And not all of its moral thought, at least that of the Judeo-Christian stripe, is commendable. Morals such as those condoning the owning of other human beings. Killing practicing gays, and killing innocent women, children and infants out of spite.

.

[iam1me2023]

Romans 2:12-16 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

One is supposed to struggle with the Word of God so that one may understand it. Debating is encouraged if done in the right spirit - look at Moses who argued with God over the fate of Israel after the Golden Calf incident. In the passage above we see that one’s conscience will even serve to defend them before God come the judgement. Of course, believing you are in the right doesn’t mean you are - you are still guilty of wrong doing. But God factors in things like your intent and understanding of a situation when judging whether your actions were good or bad or somewhere in between.

At any given time, act in accordance with your understanding, faith and conscience. And if there is a matter where you find your conscience at odds with the scriptures, then study and struggle that you might rectify the two. Often times the conflict is going to be rooted in a misunderstanding, other times it maybe a conflict between one’s upbringing/culture vs God’s Law.

[Miles]

Romans 2:12-16 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

One is supposed to struggle with the Word of God so that one may understand it.

Who said so? This sounds like the lame excuse of some Sunday school teacher who had a hard time making heads or tales of the Bible herself.

Debating is encouraged if done in the right spirit -

What spirit might that be? What is the "right" spirit?

look at Moses who argued with God over the fate of Israel after the Golden Calf incident.

I look at god who had the wrong idea until Moses straightened him out. Obviously god can't always be trusted to do the right thing.

Of course, believing you are in the right doesn’t mean you are - you are still guilty of wrong doing. But God factors in things like your intent and understanding of a situation when judging whether your actions were good or bad or somewhere in between.

Are you sure? Where is this written?

At any given time, act in accordance with your understanding, faith and conscience. And if there is a matter where you find your conscience at odds with the scriptures, then study and struggle that you might rectify the two.

And if nothing comes up, then what? Punt?
My conscience tells me god was wrong in condoning slavery. My conscience tells me god was wrong in ordering practicing male homosexuals to be killed. My conscience tells me god was wrong in ordering the deaths of innocent women, children, and infants after the Israelites destroyed the Amalekites.

.

[1213]

....
1. Accept that God knows more than you do, and follow the teaching out of humility.
2. Reject the teaching and follow your conscience.
...

I believe it depends on the reasons. If you could give an intelligent and good reason for what you do, then I think you could be counted righteous and as the Bible tells, eternal life is for righteous.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46

[TRANSPONDER]

....
1. Accept that God knows more than you do, and follow the teaching out of humility.
2. Reject the teaching and follow your conscience.
...

I believe it depends on the reasons. If you could give an intelligent and good reason for what you do, then I think you could be counted righteous and as the Bible tells, eternal life is for righteous.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46

I'll give you an intelligent and good reason for doing something. "We have to leave the Union or those Northern abolitionists will have more free states and will force us to give up slavery, and our economy depends on slavery." No wonder the Righteous South is so obsessed with the Bible. It endorses slavery.

[boatsnguitars]

Easy answer:

Always do what God says - but choose the religion that calls to you. (Shop for the God that agrees with you!)

[iam1me2023]

[Replying to Miles in post #6]

Who said so? This sounds like the lame excuse of some Sunday school teacher who had a hard time making heads or tales of the Bible herself.

First of all - the very name Israel means "He who struggles/wrestles with God," and was given to Jacob in the biblical narrative after wrestling with an angel.

Secondly, and more to the point: no one is born with perfect understanding and morals. We start with what our parents and our larger culture teach us - which inevitably is imperfect and will conflict with what is good and right. Even if we hypothetically were born in an environment that was perfect - one would still need to internalize the teachings of that perfect moral system, which requires study, debate, reflection, and time.

What spirit might that be? What is the "right" spirit?

One that seeks what is true, one that seeks the well-being of others, one that seeks to do what is right.

I look at god who had the wrong idea until Moses straightened him out. Obviously god can't always be trusted to do the right thing.

You are free to think as you wish - but that's definitely not the lesson. The people went and constructed for themselves another God to worship after being shown miracle after miracle, and were saved from slavery in Egypt. God had every right to be angry with them. And ultimately that generation was still cut-off from the Holy Land as a result.

Are you sure? Where is this written?

I provided you a quote from Romans that says as much; that one's conscience will both condemn and defend them (Romans 2:12-16). Furthermore, the larger biblical narrative shows that God is ready and willing to work with those who are trying to do good - even if they are misguided. Saul, for instance, was trying to good when he persecuted Christians - but was subsequently converted and renamed Paul.

And if nothing comes up, then what? Punt?

You make a choice, and if you find that it was in error later - such as that it caused unintended harm - then you do your best to address the error and to learn from it.

My conscience tells me god was wrong in condoning slavery. My conscience tells me god was wrong in ordering practicing male homosexuals to be killed. My conscience tells me god was wrong in ordering the deaths of innocent women, children, and infants after the Israelites destroyed the Amalekites.

You are free to disagree - but you should also study to understand the various issues from the biblical perspective so that at least you disagree from an informed position. Take slavery, for instance: the scriptures also teach that most forms of slavery, like that of 18th and 19th slavery in the US, are evil. Slaves were to have rights and protections, and were by no means to be regarded as sub-human or abused. Kidnapping people got the death penalty. Runaway slaves were not to be returned to their masters - but protected and welcomed. Killing a slave would mean you forfeit your own life, and any severe injury - even knocking out a tooth - would mean that they were freed. People would sell themselves into slavery - indentured servants - to serve for a period of 6 years to pay debts or the like. Instead of people rotting in prison for things like theft or having their hands cut off, they would serve as indentured servants. etc.

In otherwords, the form of slavery permitted under the OT Law is drastically different from what you probably think of and are familiar with when you hear the term "slavery."

On the other hand, consider how humane modern Capitalism is - where you can be caught up in a life time of debt out of college that you can never pay off - and thus are an indentured servant for life. Suddenly 6 years of servitude under the OT Law isn't looking so bad, now is it?