Better off Without Morality?

[Purple Knight]

For the religious I ask that you exclude God-made morality from this discussion and only consider man-made morality.

Question for Debate: Would we as human beings be better off without the idea that some actions are moral and some are not?

For example, let's use as an example, the idea that homosexual relations are wrong. If you're a religious person you have been asked to exclude this idea from the discussion, so you might be asked to imagine something else, like the idea that rubber duckies are immoral to own.

Rubber duckies being some evil is a bit sillier than homosexual relations, and that's probably because even among those who believe homosexuality is permissible and moral, they can recognise it as something one human does to another, with the potential for harm, and that not every instance of gay sex is automatically good - if it would be pederasty, for example.

But we can imagine a world in which rubber duckies (owning them, rather) causes harm. If they are so desired and demanded that companies cut corners in making them, so that they are routinely poisoning bathwater, or if the rich take resources that would go toward feeding people, and pay a higher price for them, using them to make their rubber duckies, then owning them could conceivably cause harm.

What morality does, at its best, is that it streamlines this process, irons it out, and makes it fair. If rubber duckies are immoral, so be it, but everyone goes together. Either we all stop this business, or no one is forced to. Everyone will have some reason that their rubber duckie does not cause harm and they should be allowed to keep it, but the moral rule, if supported by enough solidarity, will help people just accept it, and not argue about it. We've done this with murder. We reject it and those who commit it, and the sole point of argument seems to be self-defence.

What morality also does is detach the idea of harm from the idea that we should not do this act, and cast the person against rubber duckies as somehow higher than the person who simply wants to keep his own rubber duckie. Anyone looking to be higher can make up a rule, and instantly look down on those breaking that rule. A bully can take someone's bicycle and he'll be wrong, but if he can moralise the idea, bikes are now wrong and he is now a shining crusader for good.

[Purple Knight]

If they want to live that way, I don't see why we should bother trying to change it.

It's wrong, that's why. I'd wager that coming to that conclusion took me less time, energy and resources than it would to figure out the complexity re: pros and cons of honour killing.

But you can apply "it's wrong, that's why" to people eating apples or doing their hair.

[Bust Nak]

But you can apply "it's wrong, that's why" to people eating apples or doing their hair.

Yeah, we can. That's a feature.

[Adonai Yahweh]

So what? do these address your claim that Jesus is god? Of course they don't.

Lets debate on reasoning and not emotions . And yes it does , we will go into simple biology a human being a combination of the DNA from a sperm and egg meaning that all human beings must have a father and mother to classify as a human being . Jesus did not have an earthly father . Meaning that he did not qualify as a human . God is a title not a name .... the definition of God is an omnipotent and omniscient being . Jesus is the name of Christian God

Fine, then show me the context of the verses I presented that turns them around to make the statement that Jesus is god.

First I'll address John 10:30 but also read the whole of chapter . I'll give you the context , In John 10, Jesus uses the metaphor of a shepherd and his sheep to illustrate his relationship with his followers. He describes himself as the "Good Shepherd" who cares for his sheep and lays down his life for them. He contrasts himself with a hired hand who does not have the same level of commitment and willingness to protect the sheep. Jesus also speaks about his relationship with his followers, emphasizing that his sheep listen to his voice and follow him. He discusses the concept of eternal life, stating that his sheep will have eternal life and will never perish. He asserts that he and the Father are one, which sparks controversy and leads to opposition from the religious leaders. Overall, John 10 offers significant insights into Jesus' teachings on his role as the shepherd, the nature of his relationship with his followers, and him asserting his divinity.

I will write another post to give context the scriptures your wrote

Changing the subject doesn't get you anywhere, nor does making unsupported claims. If this is all you have to offer in support of your claim . . .

So none of my claims are unsupported . Sigmund Freud's structural model of the psyche, consisting of the id, ego, and superego, can be related to the concepts of mind, body, and soul in the following way: Id: The id, according to Freud, represents the instinctual and primitive part of the psyche. It operates on the pleasure principle, seeking immediate gratification of basic desires and impulses. In this context, the id can be associated with the body, as it represents our basic biological drives and instincts. The id is primarily concerned with fulfilling physical needs, such as hunger, thirst, and sexual desires.Ego: The ego acts as the mediator between the id and the external world. It operates on the reality principle, considering the constraints of reality and seeking socially acceptable ways to satisfy the id's desires. The ego can be linked to the mind, as it represents the rational, conscious, and decision-making aspects of the psyche. It helps us navigate and adapt to the external world by considering both our internal desires and the external reality.Superego: The superego represents our internalized moral values, societal standards, and the conscience. It develops through the internalization of societal norms and parental influences. The superego can be associated with the concept of the soul, as it encompasses our moral and ethical dimensions. It reflects our sense of right and wrong, our values, and our aspirations for higher ideals. And the trinity is in the scriptures





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[Adonai Yahweh]

John 17:1
17 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,

The chapter takes place during the Last Supper, a moment when Jesus shares a final meal with his disciples before his arrest and crucifixion. Jesus uses this time to provide final instructions, teachings, and prayers to his disciples. It also used as an example of how Christians should pray or conduct themselves during peril times . Jesus prays for himself: In the first part of the prayer, Jesus prays for himself, acknowledging his impending crucifixion and asking the Father to glorify him so that he may glorify the Father. Jesus prays for his disciples: In the second part of the prayer, Jesus prays for his disciples who have been with him throughout his ministry. He asks the Father to protect them, sanctify them through the truth of God's Word, and unify them in love. Jesus prays for their future mission and for their unity as they continue to spread the message of the Gospel.

Jesus prays for future believers: In the final part of the prayer, Jesus extends his prayer to include all future believers. He prays for their unity, that they may be one as he and the Father are one. Jesus expresses his desire that the love of God may be in them and that they may experience the fullness of his joy.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

John 20 is a significant chapter in the Gospel of John that focuses on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Here is the context of John 20:

The chapter begins early on the first day of the week, after the crucifixion of Jesus. Mary Magdalene, one of Jesus' devoted followers, visits the tomb and finds it empty. She immediately runs to inform Peter and another disciple, referred to as the "beloved disciple," that the body of Jesus is missing.

Peter and the beloved disciple rush to the tomb to investigate. The beloved disciple arrives first but does not enter the tomb, while Peter goes inside and sees the linen burial cloths. Then, the beloved disciple enters the tomb, sees the evidence, and believes.

After Peter and the beloved disciple leave, Mary Magdalene remains at the tomb, weeping. She sees two angels inside the tomb who ask her why she is crying. She tells them that the body of Jesus has been taken away. Turning around, she sees Jesus, but initially, she does not recognize him. Jesus speaks to her, and upon recognizing him, she calls him "Rabboni" (meaning "Teacher" in Hebrew).

Jesus instructs Mary not to hold onto him, as he has not yet ascended to the Father, but to go and tell the disciples that he is ascending to his Father and their Father, his God and their God. Mary goes to the disciples and shares the news, proclaiming, "I have seen the Lord."

Later on that same day, the resurrected Jesus appears to his disciples, who are gathered together in a locked room out of fear. He shows them his wounds and breathes the Holy Spirit upon them, commissioning them to go forth and forgive sins.

However, Thomas, one of the disciples, is absent during this encounter. When the disciples tell Thomas that they have seen the Lord, he expresses doubt and insists on seeing and touching the wounds of Jesus himself. Jesus later appears to Thomas and invites him to touch his wounds, resulting in Thomas believing and acknowledging Jesus as his Lord and God.

The chapter concludes with the purpose statement of the Gospel of John, emphasizing the purpose of recording these accounts: "that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

The context of John 20 highlights the pivotal event of Jesus' resurrection, the appearances of Jesus to his disciples, and the establishment of faith and belief in the resurrected Christ. It conveys the transformation of sorrow and doubt into joy and conviction, as the disciples encounter the risen Jesus. The chapter serves as a significant confirmation of Jesus' victory over death and the foundation of the Christian faith. His resurrection proves that he is God thats why Mary says I have seen the Lord because he rose from the dead as a living human again . Thats something that a normal human being cant do .


John 11:41-42
Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

John 11 is a significant chapter in the Gospel of John that contains the account of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. Here is the context of John 11:

The chapter begins with the news that Lazarus, the brother of Mary and Martha, is seriously ill. Mary and Martha send word to Jesus, informing him about their brother's condition, and expressing their belief that if Jesus were present, Lazarus would not have died.

However, instead of immediately going to Lazarus, Jesus remains where he is for two more days. He explains to his disciples that Lazarus' illness will not end in death but will serve as an opportunity for the glory of God to be revealed.

After two days, Jesus informs his disciples that it is time to go to Judea, where Lazarus resides. The disciples express concern, as they fear for Jesus' safety due to the hostility of the religious authorities in that area. Nevertheless, Jesus assures them and explains that Lazarus has died.

Upon arriving in Bethany, Jesus is met by Martha, who expresses her faith in Jesus and acknowledges him as the Messiah. Jesus assures her that Lazarus will rise again.

Later, Jesus meets Mary, who is grieving the death of her brother. He is deeply moved by her sorrow and the mourning of others who have gathered. Jesus asks to be taken to the tomb where Lazarus is buried.

At the tomb, Jesus asks for the stone covering the entrance to be removed. Martha expresses concern about the smell due to Lazarus being dead for four days, but Jesus reassures her and proceeds to pray to God, thanking Him for hearing Him and raising Lazarus.

Jesus then calls out in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" Miraculously, Lazarus emerges from the tomb, still wrapped in burial cloths. Jesus instructs those present to free Lazarus from the burial garments.

The chapter concludes with many witnesses believing in Jesus because of this remarkable miracle. However, it also intensifies the opposition of the religious authorities, who see Jesus' growing influence as a threat.

The context of John 11 showcases Jesus' power over death and his ability to perform miracles. It emphasizes themes of faith, belief, and the glorification of God as Jesus. The resurrection of Lazarus serves as a precursor and foreshadowing of Jesus' own resurrection and further strengthens the faith of Jesus' followers. It also contributes to the growing conflict between Jesus and the religious leaders, setting the stage for subsequent events in the Gospel narrative.
Again there is not another man in the bible that raised a man thats been dead for 3 days . This shows that he is God because of his supernatural power

1 Thimothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The context of 1 Timothy 2 is important for understanding the content and purpose of the chapter. Here is the context of 1 Timothy 2:

Authorship and Audience:
1 Timothy is one of the Pastoral Epistles traditionally attributed to the Apostle Paul. The letter is addressed to Timothy, who was a close companion and co-worker of Paul. Timothy was a young leader in the early Christian community and was entrusted with significant responsibilities.

Purpose:
The letter of 1 Timothy is believed to provide practical instructions and guidance to Timothy as he oversees the church in Ephesus. Paul addresses various issues such as false teachings, leadership qualifications, and proper conduct within the church.

Themes and Content:

Prayer and Worship: In 1 Timothy 2:1-15, Paul focuses on the importance of prayer and proper conduct during worship gatherings. He encourages the church to pray for all people, including those in positions of authority, and emphasizes the value of intercession and giving thanks.

Gender Roles and Modesty: Within this chapter, Paul discusses the roles and behaviors of men and women in the church. He urges women to dress modestly and not to draw attention to themselves through extravagant attire or hairstyles.

Salvation and Mediation: In 1 Timothy 2:5-6, Paul highlights the central message of salvation through Jesus Christ. He declares that there is one God and one mediator between God and humanity, Jesus Christ. Paul underscores the sacrificial nature of Jesus' death, emphasizing that he gave himself as a ransom for all people.

Leadership and Qualifications: Throughout 1 Timothy, Paul provides instructions and qualifications for church leadership, including the role of overseers (elders or pastors) and deacons. He outlines the character traits and responsibilities expected of those in leadership positions.

Overall, the context of 1 Timothy 2 reflects Paul's concern for proper order, conduct, and teaching within the church. The chapter addresses issues of prayer, worship, gender roles, salvation through Jesus Christ, and leadership qualifications. It provides guidance to Timothy and the early Christian community, aiming to establish a healthy and effective church in Ephesus.

What you need to understand the actions matter more than word . Cristiano Ronaldo does not say he is the greatest player in football by just stating so , it mostly through his actions . Through the way he plays football , the stats and awards he receives . The same is with Jesus how he shows that he is God is through his actions and teachings