Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated

[Compassionist]

Most religions claim that souls exist. Some religions claim that souls are immortal and are reincarnated after the death of the body while other religions claim that souls are immortal and are resurrected after the death of the body. Can anyone please prove that souls exist and are either resurrected or reincarnated? Thank you.

[The Tanager]

And I think you grossly misunderstand (or are in denial of) the evidence that fully accounts for the biological basis for thinking without resorting to the magic of the supernatural. There simply is no scientific or factual basis for the ancient notion of 'soul' or for the heart being the location of emotion.

That may be, but just sharing/restating our conclusions doesnt move this discussion forward. We were analyzing the first argument I made and Im willing to continue to do that if you are.

I did not 'restate my conclusions,' I supported them and explained them with hard data from the sciences, from actual investigations and experiments that explain how this works. Tho' much work remains to fully understand the nearly infinite complexity of the human brain and how it produces thoughts, this is a 'real' explanation rather than the purely speculative, religious notion of "the soul."

In that last post, which I was specifically referring to, you did simply restate your conclusions, which you had supported earlier in the thread and which I had already critiqued. To recap my response, I didn't deny the data you shared, I questioned the philosophical claim that such data supports a purely biological basis for thinking.

[William]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #434]

The M-Philo has it that the mind is non-physical and therefore not real.

Not true. As we discussed, Mirages are real.

When did we discuss this and agree together that "Mirages are real"?

They are the actual effect that occurs when specific conditions exist.

Are you saying that you believe that hallucinations are real?

Throughout this discussion a great misunderstanding persists. One might even suggest it is based on basic ignorance of science or vocabulary. Mirages are real. There is no reasonable debate about that. A mirage is simply a natural optical phenomenon where light rays bend, refraction producing an image of distant objects or the sky, displacing them so they, for example appear on the ground. Light, refracted or otherwise is real, as is all matter/energy.

You don't have to take my word for it. There are plenty of reference works you could find yourself, or start at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirage

Throughout this discussion I have used the word "hallucination" not "mirage".

[Andy Xi]

I think that souls exist. In my experience i already encounter one in our place.

[Clownboat]

I think that souls exist. In my experience i already encounter one in our place.

What the heck is going on! Now a soul is something you encounter in your house?! The empty claim that they provide our consciousness is bad enough.

See the topic:
Please prove that souls exist and that they are either resurrected or reincarnated.
Can you address the topic? Ghost stories are a dime a dozen I'm afraid.

[boatsnguitars]

Throughout this discussion I have used the word "hallucination" not "mirage".

And, what, pray tell, is the material difference? Does one happen because of the physical properties of matter, but the other not?

[William]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #445]

Throughout this discussion I have used the word "hallucination" not "mirage".

And, what, pray tell, is the material difference? Does one happen because of the physical properties of matter, but the other not?

The reference is re the apparent disagreement that Materialist Philosophy which argues that mindfulness is a brain-generated hallucination, and is non-physical in nature but created by physical means.

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #445]

Throughout this discussion I have used the word "hallucination" not "mirage".

And, what, pray tell, is the material difference? Does one happen because of the physical properties of matter, but the other not?

The reference is re the apparent disagreement that Materialist Philosophy which argues that mindfulness is a brain-generated hallucination, and is non-physical in nature but created by physical means.

Mirages, magnetic fields, consciousness, optical illusions, hallucinations, etc. are all "Material" under materialism because they require: 1. Matter, 2. They are explained by nothing else, other than the existence of Matter.

Mirages, magnetic fields, consciousness, etc... wouldn't exist if there wasn't Matter. That's what is meant by Materialism. Everything seemingly immaterial (mirages, magnetic fields, etc.) would vanish if not for Matter. One could try to say, "Oh, but now you say they 'seem immaterial' but then claim everything is Material! Contradiction!" But I think my explanation covers it. The mirage, magnetic field, etc. requires Matter, but exists in Matter.

Like waves in a lake when you throw a pebble in. The waves are because of the Matter, and within the Matter. Take away the water and stone, and you can't have waves (in that specific examples - yes, waves exist in the air, or in the electromagnetic spectrum, etc.).

[William]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #447]

Can you explain why Materialist Philosophy includes the belief that individual consciousness is a hallucination, using the examples you gave re "Mirages, magnetic fields, consciousness, etc... wouldn't exist if there wasn't Matter." Do you also believe that Mirages, magnetic fields wouldn't exist if consciousness didn't exist?

[boatsnguitars]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #447]

Can you explain why Materialist Philosophy includes the belief that individual consciousness is a hallucination, using the examples you gave re "Mirages, magnetic fields, consciousness, etc... wouldn't exist if there wasn't Matter." Do you also believe that Mirages, magnetic fields wouldn't exist if consciousness didn't exist?

No, they all exist only because Matter exists. That's the point. They are phenomenon that occur due the the properties of Matter. Without Matter, mirages, magnetic fields, consciousness, etc. wouldn't exist. Can't exist. There is no mechanism known that would allow someone to hallucinate, see an optical illusion, experience the Self, etc. without Matter. They emerge from the properties endemic to Matter. They are emergent properties of Matter.
The specific properties of Matter create conditions that happen whether or not someone sees it, however, it takes something that can receive and process the electromagnetic spectrum to see some of those things (mirages, optical illusions); or it takes a brain, capable of processing the electro-chemical processes that create hallucinations to experience them. It takes a body or water and a stone to create ripples. It takes air to make sound waves and those waves of energy can be heard by a receiver that is capable of hearing (and/or, those waves of energy are dissipated in the environment - if a tree falls in the woods, the energy waves exist, but takes an ear (of some form) to "hear" it.).
There is a physical world that exists (Matter), and those Material things interact with each other in many different ways. One way is in a collection of receptors that reside in a brain that not only receive signals of the energy around it, but also create (as an emergent property) a self-referential experience of it sensing its self (consciousness).

I have just said the same thing over and over in different ways to make my point as clear as possible.

If you or Tanager have any evidence to the contrary, I am happy to read the studies.

There exists:
1. Matter.
2. Things that occur because of the properties of Matter.

[William]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #449]

There exists:
1. Matter.
2. Things that occur because of the properties of Matter.

You appear to be arguing that 1 is different from 2. Is that correct?

If so, are those "things" re 2, not matter - not made up of matter?

If not, what are they made up of, that they should even be called "things", even that the "thing" calling them "things" is also not a "thing"?

It takes a body or water and a stone to create ripples. It takes air to make sound waves and those waves of energy can be heard by a receiver that is capable of hearing (and/or, those waves of energy are dissipated in the environment - if a tree falls in the woods, the energy waves exist, but takes an ear (of some form) to "hear" it.).

Therefore, energy waves are really what sound waves are.
Just as sound waves can be sent out into space, they are really energy waves and exist/are real even that we cannot hear them.

We can see these waves in observing galaxies. We cannot hear the galaxies with our human ears, but we can be sure that the waves are nonetheless "sound" waves - or would be if we could hear them.

It is the same with planets - planets have their own unique frequencies and these frequencies can be heard as sound through certain instruments of science.

Indeed, planets are instruments, as are all objects and it is an easy enough step from that recognition to understand that sound has something to do with how objects are organized. Even if our human ears cannot hear the sounds directly, we can still acknowledge that sound will be part of that process, because we see the evidence which support the notion. We understand the connection.