The Mental Health of Jesus

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Miles
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The Mental Health of Jesus

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Post by Miles »

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This was brought to mind when I looked into the various pronouncements by Jesus that he was god. See HERE and HERE

Then I came across the following remarks about his mental health in the Wikipedia entry: "Mental health of Jesus"

"The question of whether the historical Jesus was in good mental health has been explored by multiple psychologists, philosophers, historians, and writers.
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Opinions challenging the sanity of Jesus
The assessment of the sanity of Jesus first occurs in the gospels. The Gospel of Mark [Mark 3:21 (KJV)] reports the opinion of members of his family who believe that Jesus "is beside himself." [or "is out of his mind"-(NKJV)] Some psychiatrists, religious scholars and writers explain that Jesus' family, followers (John 7:20),] and contemporaries seriously regarded him as delusional, possessed by demons, or insane

And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for people were saying, "He is beside himself". And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, "He is possessed by Be-el′zebul, and by the prince of demons he casts out the demons".
— Mark 3:21–22, Revised Standard Version

The accusation contained in the Gospel of John is more literal:

There was again a division among the Jews because of these words. Many of them said, "He has a demon, and he is mad; why listen to him?"
— John 10:19–20, Revised Standard Version

Binet-Sanglé diagnosed Jesus as suffering from religious paranoia:

In short, the nature of the hallucinations of Jesus, as they are described in the orthodox Gospels, permits us to conclude that the founder of Christian religion was afflicted with religious paranoia.

His view was shared by the New York psychiatrist William Hirsch, who in 1912 published his study, Religion and Civilization: The Conclusions of a Psychiatrist, which enumerated a number of Jesus' mentally-aberrant behaviours. Hirsch agreed with Binet-Sanglé in that Jesus had been afflicted with hallucinations and pointed to his "megalomania, which mounted ceaselessly and immeasurably". Hirsch concluded that Jesus was just a "paranoid":
— (vol. 2, p. 393)

But Christ offers in every respect an absolutely typical picture of a wellknown mental disease. All that we know of him corresponds so exactly to the clinical aspect of paranoia, that it is hardly conceivable how anybody at all acquainted with mental disorders, can entertain the slightest doubt as to the correctness of the diagnosis.
— (p. 103)

New Testament scholar Andrew Jacob Mattill Jr. [Wikidata] in his article in The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read (1993), he draws attention to the ever-increasing megalomania of "John's Jesus" (described in the Gospel of John 6:29, 35, 38, 40, 47-58; 7:38; 8:12; 11:25-26; 14:6, 13-14) and concludes:

The more trust one puts in the Fourth Gospel's portrait of Jesus the more difficult it is to defend the sanity of Jesus.

In 2012, a team of psychiatrists, behavioral psychologists, neurologists and neuropsychiatrists from the Harvard Medical School published a research that suggested the development of a new diagnostic category of psychiatric disorders related to religious delusion and hyperreligiosity. They compared the thoughts and behaviors of the most important figures in the Bible (Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Paul) with patients affected by mental disorders related to the psychotic spectrum using different clusters of disorders and diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV-TR), and concluded that these Biblical figures "may have had psychotic symptoms that contributed inspiration for their revelations", such as schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder, bipolar disorder, delusional disorder, delusions of grandeur, auditory-visual hallucinations, paranoia, Geschwind syndrome (especially Paul) and abnormal experiences associated with temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE). According to the authors, in the case of Jesus, it could have been: paranoid schizophrenia, bipolar and schizoaffective disorders. They hypothesized that Jesus may have sought death through "suicide-by-proxy" (indirect suicide)

Question: Could it be that Jesus was mentally unhealthy? So much so that he was religiously delusional? After all, several of the Bible verses mentioned above suggest this might be the case. That he "is mad." "He has a demon." "He is possessed by Be-el′zebul," and that "he "is out of his mind."
I realize that it's highly unlikely that anyone here is in any position to challenge the remarks of any of the professional people mentioned above, but as a lay person what would be your argument against the notion that Jesus was mentally unhealthy?


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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

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Post by The Nice Centurion »

Problem I See here:
Christians will never Concede.

Non Christians Do rather not tend to take the gospels seriously Word for Word. And yet, to be able for declaring Christ insane suddenly thy should?

I hear the Sound of greetings from G.K.Chestertons false trichotomy.
“If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you drown a man in a fish pond, he will never have to go hungry again🐟

"Only Experts in Reformed Egyptian should be allowed to critique the Book of Mormon❗"

"Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a deceiver.
For if he had been, the Angel Moroni never would have taken the risk of enthrusting him with the Golden Plates❗"

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

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Post by 1213 »

Miles wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 6:36 pm ....Could it be that Jesus was mentally unhealthy? So much so that he was religiously delusional? After all, several of the Bible verses mentioned above suggest this might be the case. That he "is mad." "He has a demon." "He is possessed by Be-el′zebul," and that "he "is out of his mind."
I realize that it's highly unlikely that anyone here is in any position to challenge the remarks of any of the professional people mentioned above, but as a lay person what would be your argument against the notion that Jesus was mentally unhealthy?
By what can be read from the Bible, I don't see any good reason to say Jesus was mentally unhealthy or delusional.

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

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Miles wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 6:36 pmCould it be that Jesus was mentally unhealthy? So much so that he was religiously delusional? After all, several of the Bible verses mentioned above suggest this might be the case. That he "is mad." "He has a demon." "He is possessed by Be-el′zebul," and that "he "is out of his mind."
I realize that it's highly unlikely that anyone here is in any position to challenge the remarks of any of the professional people mentioned above, but as a lay person what would be your argument against the notion that Jesus was mentally unhealthy?
The mere claims of one being mentally unhealthy fit just as well as (1) true comments about that person’s mental health and (2) a way to speak of one’s disagreement with that person’s alternative teachings and actions. The existence of the claims alone prove nothing either way.

As to the psychiatric arguments, it doesn’t matter that someone claims Jesus showed signs of madness, it matters what the premises are that gets them there. There are plenty of psychologists that would not agree with their assessment. Why run with the above and not their opponents? Why do experts disagree here? Probably not because of psychology but philosophy. So, what are the arguments? Summarize and lay them out so they can be analyzed. Including why Mattill Jr’s passages from John show ever-increasing megalomania. We are all capable of analyzing the logic of their arguments.

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

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The Tanager wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 12:54 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Aug 20, 2023 6:36 pmCould it be that Jesus was mentally unhealthy? So much so that he was religiously delusional? After all, several of the Bible verses mentioned above suggest this might be the case. That he "is mad." "He has a demon." "He is possessed by Be-el′zebul," and that "he "is out of his mind."
I realize that it's highly unlikely that anyone here is in any position to challenge the remarks of any of the professional people mentioned above, but as a lay person what would be your argument against the notion that Jesus was mentally unhealthy?
The mere claims of one being mentally unhealthy fit just as well as (1) true comments about that person’s mental health and (2) a way to speak of one’s disagreement with that person’s alternative teachings and actions. The existence of the claims alone prove nothing either way.
I said nothing about proving anything. Just present your argument, if you have one, against the notion that Jesus was mentally unhealthy. That's all I'm asking.

As to the psychiatric arguments, it doesn’t matter that someone claims Jesus showed signs of madness, it matters what the premises are that gets them there.
Sure it matters---if one cares about the issue---because many professionals have made similar claims, which lend credence to the likelihood of Jesus's lack of mental health.

There are plenty of psychologists that would not agree with their assessment.
If this is your argument then let's hear what they have to say.

Why run with the above and not their opponents?
What opponents?

Why do experts disagree here? Probably not because of psychology but philosophy. So, what are the arguments? Summarize and lay them out so they can be analyzed. Including why Mattill Jr’s passages from John show ever-increasing megalomania. We are all capable of analyzing the logic of their arguments.
Is this your argument against the notion that Jesus was mentally unhealthy? Really?

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

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Post by The Tanager »

Miles wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:15 pm
The mere claims of one being mentally unhealthy fit just as well as (1) true comments about that person’s mental health and (2) a way to speak of one’s disagreement with that person’s alternative teachings and actions. The existence of the claims alone prove nothing either way.
I said nothing about proving anything. Just present your argument, if you have one, against the notion that Jesus was mentally unhealthy. That's all I'm asking.
I did. Claims that one is mentally unhealthy doesn’t support one over the other. Without support that raises (1) over (2), one is not rational to believe a person was/is mentally unhealthy. One should be an agnostic, given mere claims of insanity. Now it is your turn, if you think that reasoning is wrong.
Miles wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:15 pmSure it matters---if one cares about the issue---because many professionals have made similar claims, which lend credence to the likelihood of Jesus's lack of mental health.
I’m sorry, I thought you would have read the wikipedia article you mentioned. It talks of Schweitzer, Bundy, Kneib, Werner, Schaefer, Hyder, Martinez and Sims, and others. So, unless there is actual evidence of insanity (which means you offering good actual reasons), there is every reason to reject the notion that Jesus was mentally unhealthy. Do you have any good reasons to read the evidence towards insanity?

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

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The Tanager wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 7:03 pm
Miles wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 6:15 pm
The mere claims of one being mentally unhealthy fit just as well as (1) true comments about that person’s mental health and (2) a way to speak of one’s disagreement with that person’s alternative teachings and actions. The existence of the claims alone prove nothing either way.
I said nothing about proving anything. Just present your argument, if you have one, against the notion that Jesus was mentally unhealthy. That's all I'm asking.
I did. Claims that one is mentally unhealthy doesn’t support one over the other.
One what over what other?

Without support that raises (1) over (2), one is not rational to believe a person was/is mentally unhealthy.
How do you know that comments about Jesus lacking mental health are not true? And disagreeing with "that person’s alternative teachings and that actions" amounts to just "a way to speak"?

I’m sorry, I thought you would have read the wikipedia article you mentioned. It talks of Schweitzer, Bundy, Kneib, Werner, Schaefer, Hyder, Martinez and Sims, and others. So, unless there is actual evidence of insanity (which means you offering good actual reasons), there is every reason to reject the notion that Jesus was mentally unhealthy. Do you have any good reasons to read the evidence towards insanity?
Although citing authors who hold Jesus to be quite sane may seem like a reasonable argument against the contention that Jesus was quite daffy, one has to remember that the Bible was the first and most reliable* source to note that something was radically amiss with the guy.

John 10:20 (AMP)
Many of them said, “He has a demon and He is mad [insaneHe raves and rambles]. Why listen to Him?”

John 10:20 (CSB)
Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and he’s crazy. Why do you listen to him?”

John 10:20
(CEB)
Many of them said, “He has a demon and has lost his mind. Why listen to him?”

John 10:20
(DARBY)
but many of them said, He has a demon and raves; why do ye hear him?

John 10:20 (ISV)
Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why bother listening to him?”

John 10:20 (INIV)
Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”


John 7:20 (GW)
The crowd answered, “You’re possessed by a demon! Who wants to kill you?”

John 7:20 (BRG)
The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

John 7:20 (CEV)
The crowd replied, “You're crazy! What makes you think someone wants to kill you?”

John 7:20 (TLB)
The crowd replied, “You’re out of your mind! Who’s trying to kill you?”

John 7:20 (WE)
The people answered Jesus, `A bad spirit is in you! Who is trying to kill you?'


Mark 3:21-22 (ESV)
21 And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.”
22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, “He is possessed by Beelzebul,” and “by the prince of demons he casts out the demons.”

Mark 3:21-22 (CEV)
21 When Jesus' family heard what he was doing, they thought he was crazy and went to get him under control.
22 Some teachers of the Law of Moses came from Jerusalem and said, “This man is under the power of Beelzebul, the ruler of demons! He is even forcing out demons with the help of Beelzebul.”

Mark 3:21-22 (ERV)
21 His family heard about all these things. They went to get him because people said he was crazy.
22 And the teachers of the law from Jerusalem said, “Satan is living inside him! He uses power from the ruler of demons to force demons out of people.”

Mark 3:21-22 (GNV)
21 And when his kinsfolks heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said that he was beside himself.
22 And the Scribes which came down from Jerusalem, said, He hath Beelzebub, and through the prince of the devils he casteth out devils.

Mark 3:21-22 (GNT)
21 When his family heard about it, they set out to take charge of him, because people were saying, “He's gone mad!”
22 Some teachers of the Law who had come from Jerusalem were saying, “He has Beelzebul in him! It is the chief of the demons who gives him the power to drive them out.”


* First of all, all scripture is from god.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. "

Secondly, everything he said was true.

Proverbs 30:5-6
"Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. "

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

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Post by 1213 »

Miles wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:30 pm ....
Although citing authors who hold Jesus to be quite sane may seem like a reasonable argument against the contention that Jesus was quite daffy, one has to remember that the Bible was the first and most reliable* source to note that something was radically amiss with the guy.

John 10:20 (AMP)
Many of them said, “He has a demon and He is mad [insaneHe raves and rambles]. Why listen to Him?”

John 10:20 (CSB)
Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and he’s crazy. Why do you listen to him?”
...
So, if many people today call Joe Biden insane, it must then be true also?

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

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Miles wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:30 pmOne what over what other?
One explanation over the other. I said there were at least two reasons why someone might claim a person is mentally unhealthy: (1) they actually are and (2) they disagree with that person’s actions/teachings to the degree that it sounds crazy to them. That the claim of insanity is there doesn’t support one over the other.
Miles wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:30 pmAlthough citing authors who hold Jesus to be quite sane may seem like a reasonable argument against the contention that Jesus was quite daffy, one has to remember that the Bible was the first and most reliable* source to note that something was radically amiss with the guy.
No, the Biblical passages note that some people thought something was amiss with the guy, which can be explained by the (1) and (2) I mentioned above. Having the claims of something being amiss alone doesn’t rationally support (1) over (2). Why do you think it does? I know you are claiming it does, but why?

And surely you haven’t forgotten that you brought up authors thinking Jesus to be quite insane as support that he is. All I did was pull names from your same article that disagreed with that assessment. The point being that if you think people trying to do psychology on a person who existed 2000 years earlier are to be trusted (I don’t, but your posts show you do), you get experts on both sides of the debate and so nothing is decided by those appeals to authority.
Miles wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:30 pm* First of all, all scripture is from god.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. "

Secondly, everything he said was true.

Proverbs 30:5-6
"Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. "
How is this contradicted if the above (2) is the case? It would be true that people claimed Jesus was crazy and that these are useful examples for teaching us.

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Re: The Mental Health of Jesus

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Post by Miles »

1213 wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 5:55 am
Miles wrote: Mon Aug 21, 2023 11:30 pm ....
Although citing authors who hold Jesus to be quite sane may seem like a reasonable argument against the contention that Jesus was quite daffy, one has to remember that the Bible was the first and most reliable* source to note that something was radically amiss with the guy.

John 10:20 (AMP)
Many of them said, “He has a demon and He is mad [insaneHe raves and rambles]. Why listen to Him?”

John 10:20 (CSB)
Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and he’s crazy. Why do you listen to him?”
...
So, if many people today call Joe Biden insane, it must then be true also?
Only if their words carry the certitude of god as in the Bible, where it says:

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture [which includes John 10:20] is given by God. And all Scripture is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives. "

Proverbs 30:5-6
"Every word [which includes all those making up John 10:20] of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar. "

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