No one saw the ressurection

[bjs]

I see no reason to give credence to the resurrection. No one saw it actually happen despite the obvious importance of that in lending credibility to the idea of Jesus being special. In none of the stories does anyone see a resurrected Jesus who is not already a follower of Jesus despite the obvious importance of unbiased witnesses to lend credibility to the alleged event.

I have seen this argument a few times, but I have never been able to make sense of it.

Imagine that you spent years living and traveling with a person. Then you saw that person killed. Absolutely, unquestionably put to death. Then you saw that person alive again a week later and you, as well as all the other people who knew that person well, were convinced that it really is the same person now alive. Would it matter if anyone saw that person come back to life? Wouldn’t that fact that the person was dead and is now alive be sufficient reason to believe that the person came back to life?

To make a more mundane analogy, imagine a place in your yard that is only grass. Now imagine that you walk out to that place tomorrow and find that there is a five foot tall sapling there. You did not see the sapling planted, but it is there now. Does the fact that you did not see the sapling being planted matter in any meaningful way? Would you insist that the sapling is not there because you did not see it being planted?

If someone were writing a fictional story about Jesus then we would expect someone to witness the resurrection in that story. If someone were writing a fictional story that they wanted to pass off as true it would make sense to have Jesus appear to various “unbiased� witnesses to lend credibility to the alleged event.

But if someone where recording actual events then the reason they do record any witnesses to the resurrection is because no one was there to witness it. If anything, this tends to lend a small amount of credence to the story. The gospel accounts defy what expect from fiction and instead seem closer to what we experience in real life.

For debate: Does the fact that the Gospels do not record any witnesses to the resurrection make the story less credible?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to boatsnguitars in post #60]

And yet isn't 'Imagine' the anthem of the atheists.

'Imagine there was no religion ... etc.'

You aren't debating you are punching with the left and the right. Imagination is of course as you would no doubt say important in other contexts.

--

No one saw X doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Imagination is excellent, but it also needs mental discipline, not just believing whatever pops into the head and rejecting anything that contradicts it.

'Wisdom is foolishness' is the anthem of the Christians. Just waiting for a good tune.

Well, Christians can't be accused of that. Mostly the need to get rid of religion is so that whatever pops into the head can be imposed on the people.

If Christianity cannot be accused of that, it can be accused of rejecting what the Bible says.

Matthew 11.25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;

Again the unbeliever has to teach the Believer what their own Bible says. Because the Christians I come across seem not only to make up teir own religion, but make it up as they go along. The implication being that their 'Religion' is not God, Jesus or the Bible, but their own self -justification. Even at the expense of God, Jesus, the Bible or Christianity as it generally is.

Apart from which 'what pops into the head' would be a misunderstanding of how evidence and logic works (finding evidence and analysing the data logically) if it were anything but a sideswipe at materialistic atheism, without much thought going into it.

[The Nice Centurion]

.

I have seen this argument a few times, but I have never been able to make sense of it.

If there actually was an empty tomb (which has not been verified – beyond tales that make the claim), and if tales about people seeing the deceased are not verified, does it make sense to doubt the tales?

Would it make sense to doubt similar tales told about OTHER gods – or do you recommend believing what is told in stories about competing gods?

Imagine that you spent years living and traveling with a person. Then you saw that person killed. Absolutely, unquestionably put to death. Then you saw that person alive again a week later and you, as well as all the other people who knew that person well, were convinced that it really is the same person now alive. Would it matter if anyone saw that person come back to life? Wouldn’t that fact that the person was dead and is now alive be sufficient reason to believe that the person came back to life?

If a long-dead, really-dead friend later visited with me personally (and I had no doubt it was the same person based on questions I would ask and based on actually touching and interacting with the person) I would have no choice but to accept that something "supernatural" that I did not understand had happened.

Hogwash.

What about you seeing things because going mad?
(Either his death or his reappearance or both not real.)

What about alien technology brought him back, like Klaatu?

Endless List.

[TRANSPONDER]

It is hogwash, really. And yet the believers seem to think this is such a wonderful apologetic. Everything from healings after prayer, to NDE's survival of disasters to personal experience. It is amazing hat those who dismiss validated science as merely opinion because of imperfect human perceptions (yes, that was a Thing at one time) want them accepted as hard evidence when it suits the religion.

Of course if that happens in another religion it means nothing. Or it's demons misleading the victim. And cue a line of elephants in the room from 'known by their fruits' through 'oh those were not Real Christians (1) to conspiracy theories about the collapse of civilisation because we turned from God.

(1) Throw the too embarrassing Christian to the wolves or under the bus, or simply forget about it and hope they do, too.