Us

[Miles]

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In Genesis 1:26 one reads

"26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

What I get from this is that making man wasn't a solo task, but a cooperative effort of god and, at a minimum, someone/thing else. So, who is this us, and our, and what's the reason for your choice?

Secondary question: being the almighty god he is said to be, why do you think he needed help in making man?

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[theophile]

So to counter my point, you'd have to show me where God created tehom / the waters and all the formless earth in it.

Are these waters a "thing" or are the "nothing"?

Because according to scripture all THINGS, ( everything) was created by Jehovah/YHWH.

REVELATION 4:11

“You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things..”

You could argue that anything formless is nothing, as in no thing. And that for something to be a thing it must have a form so that it can be identified as such.

But the waters themselves, albeit without form, are still surely something, if not identifiable as any given thing. And God never created them

So depends how hard you want to push here. All the way to creatio ex nihilo? I don't think that's a viable path if so. Otherwise I'm happy to modify my previous statement with the above in mind.

[JehovahsWitness]

Are these waters a "thing" or are the "nothing"? Because according to scripture all THINGS, ( everything) was created by Jehovah/YHWH.

REVELATION 4:11

“You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things..”

JW

You could argue that anything formless is nothing, as in no thing. ...

You could but that would be gibberish... all gasses and liquids for example, have no fixed "form" (taking on the form of that in which they are contained) but obviously gasses and liquids exist and are "things".

If Jehovah created all "things" he created things with form and "things" WITHOUT form...

But the waters themselves, albeit without form, are still surely something ...

Correct. Then according to scripture YHWH created them, since He created ALL things.

[William]

[Replying to theophile in post #51]

So he created man in the image of himself, and only in the aspect of bearing his image, he refers to them as gods.

Therein is the contradiction apparent. On the one hand we have a claim that the biblical God said "Before me there was no God formed, Neither shall there be after me." and on the other hand we have biblical writ claiming the God also refers to humans as "gods".

The contradiction naturally leads to differences among Christians and other competing religions and subsequent in-house fighting so the best course of action re the apparent contradictions would be to accept that The Source Creator does indeed create gods and for reasons which assist in the continuing unfolding of the creation.

There are no contradictions in God’s word other than in the minds of skeptics.

I am not sure what your statement there is attempting to achieve. Perhaps a rebuttal?

Are you suggesting that the bible is the only thing which exists representing "Gods Word"?

If not, then what reason can you give me as to why you wrote that?

If so, then how is it a rebuttal to my own words?

Was this one misdirected? I never said any of these things.

Yes. I thought I had posted this in reply to Miss Kate, but then couldn't find it. And here it is posted incorrectly! Sorry for the confusion. The reply to you in our ongoing interaction is Post #56

[boatsnguitars]

In Genesis 1:26 one reads

"26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

What I get from this is that making man wasn't a solo task, but a cooperative effort of god and, at a minimum, someone/thing else. So, who is this us, and our, and what's the reason for your choice?

Secondary question: being the almighty god he is said to be, why do you think he needed help in making man?

1. I think the common thoughts are (1) it's a plural of majesty, but only denotes one actual being, (2) it speaks of polytheism, (3) it's the divine counsel of angels, (4) it's the Trinity, or (5) both the divine counsel and the Trinity is included. I'm undecided between 3, 4, and 5. (1) would seem out of place since God isn't always using the plurality of majesty elsewhere. (2) would seem to contradict the message in the rest of the Hebrew scriptures (Deut 6:4, Isaiah 44:6, etc.) as well.

2. Why do you think God using someone/thing else, such as the divine counsel, to help create means that God needed help as supposed to wanted to include others in the making?

1. But what is the truth? Why can't you tell us?
2. But what is the truth, just tell us?

[William]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #62]

But the waters themselves, albeit without form, are still surely something ...

Correct. Then according to scripture YHWH created them, since He created ALL things.

No.
If the Source Creator created ALL things, then it also created itself.

Since the idea is that the Source Creator is eternal, then the Source Creator did not create itself.

Since the material had to exist in order for the Source Creator to have created things which have a beginning, (are not eternal/are temporal) the material used to do so, must be eternal.

Since the material the Source Creator uses to create things with which are not eternal/are temporal, all such things must be created from the material the Source Creator is made of.

[JehovahsWitness]

If the Source Creator created ALL things, then it also created itself

DID GOD CREATE HIMSELF?

REVELATION 4:11

“You are worthy, Jehovah our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they came into existence and were created.”

God is uncreated and has always existed (he not come into existence ) ; The "all things" of scripture are all created things - see above.


DOES SCRIPTURE ACKNOWLEDGE ANYONE [ANOTHER GOD/GODESS] OR ANYTHING [A COSMIC OCEAN]BEING EQUAL TO YHWH (JEHOVAH) AS AN UNCREATED ENTITY?

ISAIAH 44:24

This is what Jehovah says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last.There is no God but me. Who is there like me? Let him call out and tell it and prove it to me!

[William]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #66]

God is uncreated and has always existed (he not come into existence ) ; The "all things" of scripture are all created things - see above.

1: Since the idea is that the Source Creator is eternal, then the Source Creator did not create itself.

Does scripture acknowledge anyone [another god/godess] or anything [a cosmic ocean]being equal to yhwh (jehovah) as an uncreated entity?(Edited to remove all-caps)

There is no reference in my points of argument to any "other" as I wrote;

2: Since the material had to exist in order for the Source Creator to have created things which have a beginning, (are not eternal/are temporal) the material used to do so, must be eternal.

3: Since the material the Source Creator uses to create things with which are not eternal/are temporal, all such things must be created from the material the Source Creator is made of.

If you can find any biblical script which clearly debunks those points I made, please show and tell, preferably without use of ALL CAPS as these are associated with YELLING, and there is no need for any of us to YELL at each other.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #62]

You left out Jesus. I wonder why. YHWH created everything through Jesus, the Word made flesh.

John 1:3
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to theophile in post #60]

People need to be more careful with the quotes. I have been attributed to things I never said.

[MissKate13]

2: Since the material had to exist in order for the Source Creator to have created things which have a beginning, (are not eternal/are temporal) the material used to do so, must be eternal.

3: Since the material the Source Creator uses to create things with which are not eternal/are temporal, all such things must be created from the material the Source Creator is made of.

If you can find any biblical script which clearly debunks those points I made, please show and tell, preferably without use of ALL CAPS as these are associated with YELLING, and there is no need for any of us to YELL at each other.

Are you saying that materials had to exist before God created the heavens and the earth? If so, the Scriptures debunk your theory. God created everything from nothing.

John 1:3
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Revelation 4:11
“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

Hope this helps.