Size of a Religion - or Cult

[boatsnguitars]

I have to say, this was the most remarkable, and unintentionally hillarious posts I have read in a long time.

Many religions and denominations take pride, even boast of how large their followers are in numbers and the rate at which they are growing. But the thread of truth that runs throughout the whole of the scriptures is that God has always worked through the minority and never through the majority. This teaches us that when people look at their large numbers and equate that with their reasoning of God working through them, well the Bible teaches quite the opposite.

There are numerous accounts in the Bible which teach this truth, but my favorite is regarding the 400 prophets of Israel who were called to inquire of God whether king Ahab should go into battle and obtain victory or not. And since these 400 prophets were prophets of Israel, and Israel was recognized as the people of God, then surely these 400 prophets were true prophets of God, right? Especially since they all came to the same conclusion and spoke with one voice unto the king saying that God would surely give this king victory. Yet one one man is called to see what God had to say and he told the king that the king would die in battle and that these 400 prophets were false prophets.

But what's more, is that these 400 prophets truly believed that they were true children of God and that the one lone prophet wasn't. This is a tremendous warning to those who find comfort and assurance in the size of their religious group who claim the name of God. Anyone can read this account in 1 Kings 22.

What do you think about God always working through the minority? What do you think about those groups who firmly believe they are the people of God but are in fact not?

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I actually agree with what you’ve written.

Imho, many denominations are in for a rude awakening.

Obviously, this is what you'd say if you believe in a small sect or cult! What a way to justify your belief - that only rare beliefs are true! It's downright, abjectly hillarious! This is "Motivated reasoning" at it's finest.

It's why I think religion damages the brain. Some people actually think this is a justification of why their beliefs may be true! It's patently absurd!

These people vote, possibly raise and teach our children, etc.

No doubt this was preceded by someone from a mega church, or the RCC saying that their sect was more popular - so, instead of simply agreeing, they've decided to use it as an Apologetic.

Isn't this a perfect example of Apologetics? The motivation, the bad logic, etc? To me it is.

[1213]

... Righteousness comes not from deeds but from Faith in God, as with Abraham...

No, in Biblical point of view, faith comes from righteousness. If person is righteous, he does righteous actions, which also faith is, and the actions tell that one is righteous.

Nope, from Biblical point of view, faith comes from the God of the Bible.
Romans 12:3
ESV
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

But you will not correct your thinking, will you?

And what is wrong in it? Even if God gives the measure of faith, it can still be persons own decision to be faithful to that measure.

[1213]

....Paul says plainly that Abraham believed in God, and that was accounted to him as Righteousness. It was nothing to do with actions so long as they didn't annoy God, who gave the Mosaic law to ensure they didn't. Faith not Works was alway what made for Righteousness.

I think it would be more accurate to say: "Abraham believed God" (Room. 4:3), not "believed in God".

Now, Abraham believed God. This means he understood correctly what God said and wanted to do as God said, because he thought it is right. That shows he had right understanding, which is why he can be counted righteous.

Faith and works are only the result that tells what kind of person one is. If you do righteous actions and are loyal (faithful) to God, it shows you can be righteous and in then you could be counted righteous.

If you don't do righteous actions, then you can't be counted righteous.

As I said if Works was the touchstone, good people of any Faith could be saved and you wouldn't need religions, only morals.

If person is good, he doesn't' need to be saved.

"I am not sinless but I am forgiven". Haven't you heard this before? Wasn't everyone forgiven? No, only if they had the Party card. You know this is so.

Forgiveness is offered for all humans.

[TRANSPONDER]

....Paul says plainly that Abraham believed in God, and that was accounted to him as Righteousness. It was nothing to do with actions so long as they didn't annoy God, who gave the Mosaic law to ensure they didn't. Faith not Works was alway what made for Righteousness.

I think it would be more accurate to say: "Abraham believed God" (Room. 4:3), not "believed in God".

Now, Abraham believed God. This means he understood correctly what God said and wanted to do as God said, because he thought it is right. That shows he had right understanding, which is why he can be counted righteous.

Faith and works are only the result that tells what kind of person one is. If you do righteous actions and are loyal (faithful) to God, it shows you can be righteous and in then you could be counted righteous.

If you don't do righteous actions, then you can't be counted righteous.

As I said if Works was the touchstone, good people of any Faith could be saved and you wouldn't need religions, only morals.

If person is good, he doesn't' need to be saved.

"I am not sinless but I am forgiven". Haven't you heard this before? Wasn't everyone forgiven? No, only if they had the Party card. You know this is so.

Forgiveness is offered for all humans.

Ok, but one cannot believe God's words without believing in God. The promises God made came after the righteousness, before God had instructed anything, so the Righteousness must be that Abraham believed IN God, no matter how they may word it.

But like I said, if one is righteous by righteous actions, then you don't need to believe in God, Jesus or Christianity. If so, Christianity is irrelevant. Works, deeds and the law do not save. That comes from Faith in Jesus/God. It is misunderstanding and misdirection to protest that Christianity talks about doing good. That is because sinning can lose salvation, doing good does not gain it. Even if your protest that Faith in God made people good - more than outside the Faith. It still would not save. That is why your attempt to create a circular argument where Christianity = being more good than not being good fails, even when the circular argument itself fails because good deeds do not save even if Christianity did make people behave good.

Wrong. Being saved requires faith in Jesus/God/the Bible and Christianity. If it didn't non Christians would be saved too. Which is actually a nice idea but does not give Christianity what it needs - authority, power and money.

Same with forgiveness. I don't know whether you realise it but that is actually an apologetics cheat. I mean, you did it deliberately but maybe not understanding it was a cheat. It is equivocation or shall we say ambiguity. I get that the loophole in Sin - death is for everybody, but 'no-one comes to the father but by me'. That doesn't mean Jesus saved everyone whether they knew it or not, but it is clear in the Bible and Christianity that Believing is Jesus makes one Righteous, Just as Abraham believed (in) God. One had to believe in the entity before practising what it supposedly says. That just reinforces, one has to know of and believe in Jesus to use the loophole in sin death. One has to join the club to be admitted.

If that wasn't the case, nether Christ nor his religion would be needed. All of us (if we weren't too bad) would be saved and this debate wouldn't be necessary.

[1213]

Ok, but one cannot believe God's words without believing in God.

If God says "don't murder", why could you not believe that, if you don't believe in God?

But like I said, if one is righteous by righteous actions, then you don't need to believe in God, Jesus or Christianity. If so, Christianity is irrelevant. Works, deeds and the law do not save. That comes from Faith in Jesus/God. It is misunderstanding and misdirection to protest that Christianity talks about doing good. That is because sinning can lose salvation, doing good does not gain it. Even if your protest that Faith in God made people good - more than outside the Faith. It still would not save. That is why your attempt to create a circular argument where Christianity = being more good than not being good fails, even when the circular argument itself fails because good deeds do not save even if Christianity did make people behave good.

It is interesting that you don't seem to understand what I say. I am sorry, if my English is so bad that it is impossible to understand.

But, I agree, works, deeds and the law do not save. Person can do nothing to be saved. Salvation and eternal life are gifts. And eternal life is a gift for those who are righteous. If person is righteous, he does righteous actions. That is how it is possible to see is person righteous.

Wrong. Being saved requires faith in Jesus/God/the Bible and Christianity. If it didn't non Christians would be saved too. Which is actually a nice idea but does not give Christianity what it needs - authority, power and money.

If Christianity is what Jesus taught, it doesn't need money power or authority from people.

Forgiveness comes from God and Jesus, without them, people would not have them. That is why it depends on God and Jesus.

[TRANSPONDER]

Ok, but one cannot believe God's words without believing in God.

If God says "don't murder", why could you not believe that, if you don't believe in God?

But like I said, if one is righteous by righteous actions, then you don't need to believe in God, Jesus or Christianity. If so, Christianity is irrelevant. Works, deeds and the law do not save. That comes from Faith in Jesus/God. It is misunderstanding and misdirection to protest that Christianity talks about doing good. That is because sinning can lose salvation, doing good does not gain it. Even if your protest that Faith in God made people good - more than outside the Faith. It still would not save. That is why your attempt to create a circular argument where Christianity = being more good than not being good fails, even when the circular argument itself fails because good deeds do not save even if Christianity did make people behave good.

It is interesting that you don't seem to understand what I say. I am sorry, if my English is so bad that it is impossible to understand.

But, I agree, works, deeds and the law do not save. Person can do nothing to be saved. Salvation and eternal life are gifts. And eternal life is a gift for those who are righteous. If person is righteous, he does righteous actions. That is how it is possible to see is person righteous.

Wrong. Being saved requires faith in Jesus/God/the Bible and Christianity. If it didn't non Christians would be saved too. Which is actually a nice idea but does not give Christianity what it needs - authority, power and money.

If Christianity is what Jesus taught, it doesn't need money power or authority from people.

Forgiveness comes from God and Jesus, without them, people would not have them. That is why it depends on God and Jesus.

If God says, kill your son, daughter or partner, do you do it? It's easy to do what God says if it fits with the human moral code. If it doesn't fit with the moral code that we pick up as we go along (give or take some Righteous Anger) do we do it? There's the problem.

There is nothing wrong with your Inglish - you speak it better than I do. But I think I see through what you write to what it actually says, not what you wanted it to say.

Again I must disagree. Righteousness is not in Works, but in Faith. Faith specifically in Jesus as the resurrected demigod of Christianity. I'm pretty sure that is what Paul argues and Christianity follows. Sin is inherent and being a god boy as well as Godfaith will save Jews, too; but 'there is none Righteous; not one' because 'all fall short' and nobody who believes in God will be saved without Jesus. Deeds won't do it.

Jesus offers a way out. Not blanket forgiveness of sins for all good boys and girls but for those who believe the right doctrine. No Guarantees as they say, though if God had guaranteed it, that would not, like the Guarantee to grant prayer, be worth the paper it's printed on.

And if 'Christianity' is not what Jesus taught, but greedy churches and the Prosperity gospel, then authority, power and money and more money is what Christianity is about.

[1213]

If God says, kill your son, daughter or partner, do you do it?

Why would I think it is God speaking, when God has told "don't murder"?

There is nothing wrong with your Inglish - you speak it better than I do. But I think I see through what you write to what it actually says, not what you wanted it to say.

Thanks!

Again I must disagree. Righteousness is not in Works, but in Faith. Faith specifically in Jesus as the resurrected demigod of Christianity. I'm pretty sure that is what Paul argues and Christianity follows. Sin is inherent and being a god boy as well as Godfaith will save Jews, too; but 'there is none Righteous; not one' because 'all fall short' and nobody who believes in God will be saved without Jesus. Deeds won't do it.

Sorry, I think you have not understood correctly what is said in the Bible. And anyway, in Bible eternal life is promised only for righteous. So, if no one is righteous, no one will get the life.

[Clownboat]

If God says, kill your son, daughter or partner, do you do it?

Why would I think it is God speaking, when God has told "don't murder"?

It amazes me that one can be a Christian without knowing the story of Abraham/Isaac or Jephthah! This doesn't even touch on the ordered genocide in the Bible I might add.

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

Goooooooo gods!

[TRANSPONDER]

If God says, kill your son, daughter or partner, do you do it?

Why would I think it is God speaking, when God has told "don't murder"?

There is nothing wrong with your Inglish - you speak it better than I do. But I think I see through what you write to what it actually says, not what you wanted it to say.

Thanks!

Again I must disagree. Righteousness is not in Works, but in Faith. Faith specifically in Jesus as the resurrected demigod of Christianity. I'm pretty sure that is what Paul argues and Christianity follows. Sin is inherent and being a god boy as well as Godfaith will save Jews, too; but 'there is none Righteous; not one' because 'all fall short' and nobody who believes in God will be saved without Jesus. Deeds won't do it.

Sorry, I think you have not understood correctly what is said in the Bible. And anyway, in Bible eternal life is promised only for righteous. So, if no one is righteous, no one will get the life.

Oh Dear. Because God told Abraham to kill his son and he would have done it if God didn't say stop. There were times He let the killing go ahead. You assume that God would never tell you anything bad, but IF God did, how would you know it wasn't Him? Because you are applying human morals, just as we apply it to the Bible and the Apologists excuse what is bad according to Human moral codes.

You don't get the point of Jesus' sacrifice. Nobody, Paul tells us, is Righteous in his time (or later) even if they were (reputedly) before the Law was given (which increased sin). Jesus' sacrifice made a loophole in sin - death without which nobody, whether they did good works or not, could be saved, as none were Righteous, so Psalms and Paul tells us. BUT - one has to believe in Jesus because that, not good deeds, is what saves. That's what I've been saying all along. If we can get saved by good works, we don't need Jesus, only a decent human morality, because religion sure as heck doesn't give it.

[1213]

Oh Dear. Because God told Abraham to kill his son and he would have done it if God didn't say stop. There were times He let the killing go ahead. You assume that God would never tell you anything bad, but IF God did, how would you know it wasn't Him?

Had God told to Abraham before that "don't murder"? I think the Abraham case is also different in that God had made a promise to Abraham, which is why he didn't think his son could really die, which makes it very different case.

I think the problem of, is it God really speaking, comes especially when the message is contradictory. If God says, don't murder, surely the voice that would tell after it, no, you can murder, would be someone else, when God doesn't change.

You don't get the point of Jesus' sacrifice. Nobody, Paul tells us, is Righteous in his time (or later) even if they were (reputedly) before the Law was given (which increased sin). Jesus' sacrifice made a loophole in sin - death without which nobody, whether they did good works or not, could be saved, as none were Righteous, so Psalms and Paul tells us. BUT - one has to believe in Jesus because that, not good deeds, is what saves. That's what I've been saying all along. If we can get saved by good works, we don't need Jesus, only a decent human morality, because religion sure as heck doesn't give it.

Sorry, I rather remain in the teachings that are in the Bible. I think your version is very far from it.

[1213]

If God says, kill your son, daughter or partner, do you do it?

Why would I think it is God speaking, when God has told "don't murder"?

It amazes me that one can be a Christian without knowing the story of Abraham/Isaac or Jephthah! This doesn't even touch on the ordered genocide in the Bible I might add.

gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

In Bible death penalty is possible. That is not the same as murder, which is unlawful killing. So, if Bible God would ask someone to kill, it could be only in case of death penalty. So, if God would ask me to kill someone, i would ask, what is the crime, why should they die. But, obviously I don't think He would ask that, because:

Then Pilate said to them, You take him and judge him according to your own Law. Then the Jews said to him, It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,
John 18:31

Do not judge, that you may not be judged; for with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured again to you.
Matt. 7:1-2

I think i could go by this:

So says Jehovah of hosts, saying, Judge true judgment, and practice kindness and pity, each man with his brother.
Zec. 7:9