How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

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How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

From the On the Bible being inerrant thread:
nobspeople wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:42 amHow can you trust something that's written about god that contradictory, contains errors and just plain wrong at times? Is there a logical way to do so, or do you just want it to be god's word so much that you overlook these things like happens so often through the history of christianity?
otseng wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:08 am The Bible can still be God's word, inspired, authoritative, and trustworthy without the need to believe in inerrancy.
For debate:
How can the Bible be considered authoritative and inspired without the need to believe in the doctrine of inerrancy?

While debating, do not simply state verses to say the Bible is inspired or trustworthy.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3351

Post by otseng »

The ethical issues in the Old Testament is a vast topic, so I will try to be semi-organized about this. I'll address it from the top down and later go into specific subtopics (slavery, genocide, infanticide, rape, etc). We'll eventually cover various aspects of this topic, so don't say, "well, what about this or what about that?". Again, we'll get to those. If at the end we don't get to those, you can call me out on it.

Since we're going to get into some sensitive topics, be forewarned some things might be graphic, so reader discretion is advised. I might have to suspend some of the rules in order to frankly address this topic, but hopefully won't have to do it too often.

This is also a complex topic. Approaching this is not simple. I admit there are no complete answers to all the issues in this topic, but, in my opinion, I believe there are sufficient answers to remove the ethical issues as a major stumbling block.

Perhaps more than any other topic, this topic invites a lot of mocking by skeptics. I'd ask ahead of time to desist from it. If you cannot, do not post. Let's try to just rationally present our arguments and evidence for this heavy topic.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3352

Post by POI »

otseng wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 6:51 am
POI wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:59 am Hmm. You were able to resolve all the other issues/topics currently on the table? Or, did you instead decide to table those topics for now?
What other issues/topics are you referring to?
All of them. Are they all resolved and also demonstrate the veracity of the Bible's claims?
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3353

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to otseng in post #3351
Perhaps more than any other topic, this topic invites a lot of mocking by skeptics. I'd ask ahead of time to desist from it. If you cannot, do not post. Let's try to just rationally present our arguments and evidence for this heavy topic.
In that case, Otseng, I would ask one thing of you.

As you're typing out each of your defenses of the things you plan to defend, ask yourself this question:

"If, in a story from any other religion, any other god were to do the same thing, in the same way, for the same reason, what would I think of that religion?"

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3354

Post by otseng »

POI wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:17 am
otseng wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 6:51 am
POI wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:59 am Hmm. You were able to resolve all the other issues/topics currently on the table? Or, did you instead decide to table those topics for now?
What other issues/topics are you referring to?
All of them. Are they all resolved and also demonstrate the veracity of the Bible's claims?
Not sure what you mean by "resolved". But, yes, I've presented my arguments and evidence to support claims of the Bible. Anyone is free to read through this massive thread to assess my arguments.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3355

Post by otseng »

Athetotheist wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:53 am "If, in a story from any other religion, any other god were to do the same thing, in the same way, for the same reason, what would I think of that religion?"
I'll see what I can do, however I admit I'm biased. But, so is everyone else, including skeptics. But I've tried to be fair as much as possible in this thread and not treat Christianity with having an advantage over anything else.

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Morality and existence of God

Post #3356

Post by otseng »

First thing I want to point out is by making an ethical judgment on the God of the Old Testament, it does not demonstrate whether he exists or not. It's not logical to complain about the moral attributes of an entity if that entity does not exist. I'm not going to go around complaining that the flying spaghetti monster is an evil monster and violates basic human ethics. I don't even believe the FSM exists so why should I care what attributes it has? This pretty much goes for any claimed deity. I don't care about the lustful habits of Zeus or the cannibalistic tendencies of Cronus or the self-mutilating character of Chhinnamasta.

However, the attributes of a god would matter if it leads its followers to act unethically. One can rightly complain about such a belief of that religion. But, it is still possible that deity exists, even if one doesn't like its ethical attributes or what it teaches. For example, Christians believe the devil exists, but they do not like his attributes.

Bottom line, the moral characteristics of God cannot demonstrate He does not exist. But moral characteristics is relevant if it leads to unethical behavior of its followers.

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3357

Post by POI »

otseng wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:59 am
POI wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 10:17 am
otseng wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2023 6:51 am
POI wrote: Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:59 am Hmm. You were able to resolve all the other issues/topics currently on the table? Or, did you instead decide to table those topics for now?
What other issues/topics are you referring to?
All of them. Are they all resolved and also demonstrate the veracity of the Bible's claims?
Not sure what you mean by "resolved".
I'll give you an example of resolved, by referencing another large thread --- but not nearly as large as this one :)

Go to post #523 of (viewtopic.php?p=1136201#p1136201). Or before this, post 465.

It is demonstrated that God's messages about "how one gets to Heaven" is not clear to his intended followers. Why? Because his followers do not agree on the path.  Unlike God's message about many other topics, which are clear and obvious; like his stance on murder, trespassing, theft, the gays, men > women, etc.

My point being, I offer periodic updated for readers, by including all participants and their final posts (post 465), to tally where this thread has gone thus far.
otseng wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 7:59 am But, yes, I've presented my arguments and evidence to support claims of the Bible. Anyone is free to read through this massive thread to assess my arguments.
Then might I make a suggestion? Since there is really no way to make a table of contents, or neatly organize, above is (A) way to instead keep your readers up to date, without having to search for a few needles in a very large haystack ;)

***********************************************************

If you care about this thread, I feel it is your responsibility to keep this thread organized. Maybe keep a running tally of the post numbers, for which each topic has left off. This way, when someone decides to jump in, they will soon see a clear 'leaving off' point for all contributors, and post numbers they last posted. It may be your responsibility to keep track of the keynote interlocutors, and what their positions have last been on each topic. Otherwise, it's just a large unorganized mess.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: How can we trust the Bible if it's not inerrant?

Post #3358

Post by otseng »

POI wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2023 4:27 pm Then might I make a suggestion? Since there is really no way to make a table of contents, or neatly organize, above is (A) way to instead keep your readers up to date, without having to search for a few needles in a very large haystack ;)
How about if I update the OP with links to key points in the thread?
If you care about this thread, I feel it is your responsibility to keep this thread organized.
Believe me, I've tried to keep it organized.
Maybe keep a running tally of the post numbers, for which each topic has left off.
Unfortunately post numbers are not consistent. Posts can get deleted and it makes it off between admins (which can see the deleted posts) and normal users (which cannot see the deleted posts).
This way, when someone decides to jump in, they will soon see a clear 'leaving off' point for all contributors, and post numbers they last posted. It may be your responsibility to keep track of the keynote interlocutors, and what their positions have last been on each topic.
The only effective way I've thought of to organize it all is to create a companion website to collate and organize my posts. It is up at:
https://defendingchristianity.com/about/

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Atheism and morality

Post #3359

Post by otseng »

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
Richard Dawkins

A foundational assumption of skeptics to claim there are moral issues in the Old Testament is a standard exists to make ethical judgments that applies universally. To say God does or commands something morally wrong is asserting there is a standard that everyone, including God, ought to abide by. If they violate it, then it is morally wrong. But the problem for the skeptics is on what basis can they justify this universal ethical standard that everyone must abide by? And why do only humans have this sense of morality? Can animals do anything that are morally wrong?

As Dawkins states:

“The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”
Richard Dawkins

According to Dawkins' naturalistic worldview, there is no evil and no good. It is all just pitiless indifference. There is no basis for atheists to assert the existence of any absolute ethical standard to judge if something is morally good or evil.

So, Dawkins contradicts himself by stating there is no evil and no good, yet judges the God of the Old Testament as being evil.

That morality does not exist in an atheistic worldview is also affirmed by atheist philosopher Joel Marks:
In a word, this philosopher has long been laboring under an unexamined assumption, namely, that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I now believe there isn’t.

The long and the short of it is that I became convinced that atheism implies amorality; and since I am an atheist, I must therefore embrace amorality. I call the premise of this argument ‘hard atheism’ because it is analogous to a thesis in philosophy known as ‘hard determinism.’ The latter holds that if metaphysical determinism is true, then there is no such thing as free will. Thus, a ‘soft determinist’ believes that, even if your reading of this column right now has followed by causal necessity from the Big Bang fourteen billion years ago, you can still meaningfully be said to have freely chosen to read it. Analogously, a ‘soft atheist’ would hold that one could be an atheist and still believe in morality. And indeed, the whole crop of ‘New Atheists’ (see Issue 78) are softies of this kind. So was I, until I experienced my shocking epiphany that the religious fundamentalists are correct: without God, there is no morality. But they are incorrect, I still believe, about there being a God. Hence, I believe, there is no morality.

A helpful analogy, at least for the atheist, is sin. Even though words like ‘sinful’ and ‘evil’ come naturally to the tongue as a description of, say, child-molesting, they do not describe any actual properties of anything. There are no literal sins in the world because there is no literal God and hence the whole religious superstructure that would include such categories as sin and evil. Just so, I now maintain, nothing is literally right or wrong because there is no Morality.
https://philosophynow.org/issues/80/An_ ... sto_Part_I

Philosopher Rüdiger Bittner says there is no moral ought:
There is no moral ought. For one thing, a morality of what one ought to do cannot account for the reason-giving force of moral judgements. For another, autonomy properly understood excludes our being subject to moral requirements. It is often argued that our common moral understanding is committed to there being things we ought to do—which is true, but does not decide the matter. That commitment itself lacks sufficient grounds, as among other things Aristotle’s example of a moral theory without ought shows. It is also argued that without moral requirements the ideas both of guilt and of blame will be lost—which is true again, but no cause for concern: we are better off without them.
https://academic.oup.com/book/46447/cha ... /407725795

Michael Ruse says morality is illusory:
Morality is a biological adaptation no less than are hands and feet and teeth... Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory. I appreciate that when somebody says, 'Love thy neighbor as thyself,' they think they are referring above and beyond themselves... Nevertheless... such reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction... and any deeper meaning is illusory...
https://www.azquotes.com/quote/1140893

Philosopher Bertrand Russell says there is no moral standard:
"Outside human desires there is no moral standard."
https://iep.utm.edu/russ-eth/

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Re: Atheism and morality

Post #3360

Post by Athetotheist »

otseng wrote: Fri Nov 24, 2023 7:33 am “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
Richard Dawkins

A foundational assumption of skeptics to claim there are moral issues in the Old Testament is a standard exists to make ethical judgments that applies universally. To say God does or commands something morally wrong is asserting there is a standard that everyone, including God, ought to abide by. If they violate it, then it is morally wrong. But the problem for the skeptics is on what basis can they justify this universal ethical standard that everyone must abide by? And why do only humans have this sense of morality? Can animals do anything that are morally wrong?

As Dawkins states:

“The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”
Richard Dawkins

According to Dawkins' naturalistic worldview, there is no evil and no good. It is all just pitiless indifference. There is no basis for atheists to assert the existence of any absolute ethical standard to judge if something is morally good or evil.

So, Dawkins contradicts himself by stating there is no evil and no good, yet judges the God of the Old Testament as being evil.

That morality does not exist in an atheistic worldview is also affirmed by atheist philosopher Joel Marks:
In a word, this philosopher has long been laboring under an unexamined assumption, namely, that there is such a thing as right and wrong. I now believe there isn’t.

The long and the short of it is that I became convinced that atheism implies amorality; and since I am an atheist, I must therefore embrace amorality. I call the premise of this argument ‘hard atheism’ because it is analogous to a thesis in philosophy known as ‘hard determinism.’ The latter holds that if metaphysical determinism is true, then there is no such thing as free will. Thus, a ‘soft determinist’ believes that, even if your reading of this column right now has followed by causal necessity from the Big Bang fourteen billion years ago, you can still meaningfully be said to have freely chosen to read it. Analogously, a ‘soft atheist’ would hold that one could be an atheist and still believe in morality. And indeed, the whole crop of ‘New Atheists’ (see Issue 78) are softies of this kind. So was I, until I experienced my shocking epiphany that the religious fundamentalists are correct: without God, there is no morality. But they are incorrect, I still believe, about there being a God. Hence, I believe, there is no morality.

A helpful analogy, at least for the atheist, is sin. Even though words like ‘sinful’ and ‘evil’ come naturally to the tongue as a description of, say, child-molesting, they do not describe any actual properties of anything. There are no literal sins in the world because there is no literal God and hence the whole religious superstructure that would include such categories as sin and evil. Just so, I now maintain, nothing is literally right or wrong because there is no Morality.
https://philosophynow.org/issues/80/An_ ... sto_Part_I

Philosopher Rüdiger Bittner says there is no moral ought:
There is no moral ought. For one thing, a morality of what one ought to do cannot account for the reason-giving force of moral judgements. For another, autonomy properly understood excludes our being subject to moral requirements. It is often argued that our common moral understanding is committed to there being things we ought to do—which is true, but does not decide the matter. That commitment itself lacks sufficient grounds, as among other things Aristotle’s example of a moral theory without ought shows. It is also argued that without moral requirements the ideas both of guilt and of blame will be lost—which is true again, but no cause for concern: we are better off without them.
https://academic.oup.com/book/46447/cha ... /407725795

Michael Ruse says morality is illusory:
Morality is a biological adaptation no less than are hands and feet and teeth... Considered as a rationally justifiable set of claims about an objective something, ethics is illusory. I appreciate that when somebody says, 'Love thy neighbor as thyself,' they think they are referring above and beyond themselves... Nevertheless... such reference is truly without foundation. Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction... and any deeper meaning is illusory...
https://www.azquotes.com/quote/1140893

Philosopher Bertrand Russell says there is no moral standard:
"Outside human desires there is no moral standard."
https://iep.utm.edu/russ-eth/
There are strong arguments to be made against the conclusions of the aforementioned atheists and philisophical amoralists, but that's not really why we're here.

If your purpose is to argue that Jehovah can't be judged by human standards, then the argument has to be extended to concede that no deity can be judged by human standards. Thus, Molech desiring children to be passed through the fire can't be denounced as wrong. Tezcatlipoca wanting human sacrifice to continue can't be denounced as wrong. Zeus seducing and impregnating young women can't be denounced as wrong. After all, they're gods.

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