Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[1213]

...Paul says that God through Jesus will judge in the end, but it appears on the basis of their deeds not on their religion. You ignore the bits of Paul that suggests that Faith in Jesus is required and pick the quotes that fit your idea that just good deeds are required. This goes against the Abrahamic idea that everyone is a sinner worthy of death because of Adam, but you ignore that, too. The question is whether just good deeds saves or whether Godfaith is needed.

Again, I think it is needed that person is righteous. Because if person is righteous, he will also act righteously. No action saves, God saves those who are righteous.

You said that Abraham was Righteous because he Believed God (what he said or instructed) but the belief in God must come first. It doesn't say that people do or can be righteous if they don't know about God or his law.

No, righteousness comes first. If person is righteous, he will act righteously. For example in the case on Abraham, he was righteous, that is why he acted the way he did. And the actions showed what kind of person he is. One can be righteous, even if he has not heard of God and his law.

Why do we need belief in God Jesus or the Bible in your system? Tell us.

I don't think i have own system, only what is said in the Bible. And by it, person must be righteous to get eternal life. Believing that God is real, doesn't make one righteous. But, if person is righteous, he probably will believe that God is real.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Paul says that God through Jesus will judge in the end, but it appears on the basis of their deeds not on their religion. You ignore the bits of Paul that suggests that Faith in Jesus is required and pick the quotes that fit your idea that just good deeds are required. This goes against the Abrahamic idea that everyone is a sinner worthy of death because of Adam, but you ignore that, too. The question is whether just good deeds saves or whether Godfaith is needed.

Again, I think it is needed that person is righteous. Because if person is righteous, he will also act righteously. No action saves, God saves those who are righteous.

You said that Abraham was Righteous because he Believed God (what he said or instructed) but the belief in God must come first. It doesn't say that people do or can be righteous if they don't know about God or his law.

No, righteousness comes first. If person is righteous, he will act righteously. For example in the case on Abraham, he was righteous, that is why he acted the way he did. And the actions showed what kind of person he is. One can be righteous, even if he has not heard of God and his law.

Why do we need belief in God Jesus or the Bible in your system? Tell us.

I don't think i have own system, only what is said in the Bible. And by it, person must be righteous to get eternal life. Believing that God is real, doesn't make one righteous. But, if person is righteous, he probably will believe that God is real.

Going on how you interpret the Bible, you appear to have developed a doctrine that is not what Mainstream Christianity teaches which is that Faith saves and works don't.

I'll have to press on this point as it seems the only way out of this "Righteousness" circular argument or equivocation; whether Righteousness is through faith or works, does your system accept that a non - Christian who behaves as well as any other Christian has an equal chance of being saved?

Hint: appealing to following Jesus' words as a Righteous moral code fails, because the 'Message' sent in the Quran or Bhagavad Gita is also a moral code and one following those words is being Righteous according to that message.

[POI]

...
2. You are arguing oranges, while I'm arguing apples. If Jesus deems you saved, you are going to Heaven, right? And according to Mark 16:15-16, if you believe and are baptized, you are deemed saved. Nothing more is needed to be saved, according to Mark.

If one believes Jesus and God, it is a sign of righteousness and by that one can be counted righteous.

Then your answer here is B). Meaning, the way to get to Heaven, is by belief/faith. Right?

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. - Romans 4

If person has faith, it shows person is righteous. That is what it means when faith is credited as righteousness. Faith is also only like an action. It tells what kind of person one is.

Romans 3 clearly tells the reader that Jesus is Righteous. He did all the dirty work and died for us. And since all humans are sinners, we can also achieve 'righteousness' by simply having faith in Jesus. So again, if you wish to state 'righteousness' is the way to Heaven, then you are picking answer B).

**********************************************

But here's the dealio. We have basically stalemated at post 465.

And as I just told tam, almost a million Christians, from one denomination alone, think the answer is A), grace alone, as Unitarians believe in universal salvation. You and one other interlocutor here believe the answer is B), belief/faith/righteousness. A couple did not answer the basic question. And a handful more believe the answer is D); in that it takes more than belief/faith, but that it also takes works as well. One of them being a Catholic, which also add Purgatory. The ones who chose D), get their using differing paths.

The over-arching point being... None of you agree! I again ask what I asked in post #515, for which no one has yet addressed:

Christians, imagine you are God for a moment. You are the creator of humans, and you really want a permanent relationship with your creation. You know most humans are either illiterate, stupid, and/or easily blinded/distracted by unwanted forces (natural and supernatural alike). You know there exists these collections of writings we later call the Bible, which apparently gives a road map on how to achieve eternal bliss - (or go to Heaven). You also know, because you are God, that most people will not achieve it. Many of which, however, try as they might. Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? I'll answer, as a fellow imaginer... No. I would not be satisfied. If I know the majority of my creation was, (again), illiterate, dumb, and/or easily distracted, I will make sure the written word was very easy to follow and also not leave any room for interpretation. You know, like all here clearly agree that God does not like murder, theft, trespassing, etc. And YET, we have countless denominations, all earnest in their attempt to translate what the Bible says. In essence, I blame God. He could provide any tool for the task and chose this one? All we have is the Bible. And as we have discovered, none of you fine folks agree. If you were God, I bet you would have devised a better plan of attack. What'za think?

[TRANSPONDER]

Thank you. Works also has a part both in the Gospels as Jesus of course teaches Righteous Works. But as he told the teacher of the law, he is not far from the Kingdom of heaven, which in the Christian-written gospel does not mean Israel freed from Pagan rule, but Faith in Jesus, which oddly they seem coy about saying straight.

But Paul argues it rather as our pal does, it seems, that Faith in God and Jesus will remove sin and one becomes dead to sin. One will do the good 'naturally', in a literal way. By I Corinthians he had found out that didn't happen and he had to get involved in giving Rules as much as Moses did. Replaces the Jewish moral code with the one better suited to Gentiles.

And if they did not do the good according to these rules, they would risk losing the grace that Faith had earned them. That's the idea that mainstream Christianity follows today. Faith is relatively easy; doing the moral code is hard, whether the Jewish, Christian or humanist one.

[1213]

Going on how you interpret the Bible, you appear to have developed a doctrine that is not what Mainstream Christianity teaches which is that Faith saves and works don't.

Shouldn't the mainstream Christianity be that what the Bible teaches?

I'll have to press on this point as it seems the only way out of this "Righteousness" circular argument or equivocation; whether Righteousness is through faith or works, does your system accept that a non - Christian who behaves as well as any other Christian has an equal chance of being saved?

If person is righteous, he gets eternal life, by what Jesus tells in the Bible. And again, I think people should understand, actions don't make person righteous. If you would do all the right actions, it would not change you to righteous. Actions (faith included) are only result, like a fruit of a tree that tells what kind of tree one is. If person is righteous, he produces righteous actions.

If a non Christian is truly righteous, it means he has the right understanding and he will do righteous actions. And then he can be counted righteous and have eternal life.

Hint: appealing to following Jesus' words as a Righteous moral code fails, because the 'Message' sent in the Quran or Bhagavad Gita is also a moral code and one following those words is being Righteous according to that message.

Obviously, if we are speaking of eternal life promised for righteous, as the Bible tells, then the promise naturally is for those who are by Biblical description righteous. If other people have different definition, then the Biblical promise is not valid for them.

[1213]

...Meaning, the way to get to Heaven, is by belief/faith. Right?...

My answer still is, those who are righteous, go to heaven, not because of anything they have done, but because they are righteous and God wants to give a gift for them. You can't do anything to earn heaven, it is a gift.

And since all humans are sinners, we can also achieve 'righteousness' by simply having faith in Jesus. So again, if you wish to state 'righteousness' is the way to Heaven, then you are picking answer B).

I think the problem here is that you think it is the action that makes one righteous. No, if person has righteous mind, he does righteous actions. Actions, like faith, are just results that tell what kind of person one is. Actions don't change person. But, if person has righteous actions, the actions can tell that the person is righteous and so person can be counted righteous by actions (including faith). The actions don't make person righteous, righteousness of a person makes his actions also righteous.

[TRANSPONDER]

Going on how you interpret the Bible, you appear to have developed a doctrine that is not what Mainstream Christianity teaches which is that Faith saves and works don't.

Shouldn't the mainstream Christianity be that what the Bible teaches?

I'll have to press on this point as it seems the only way out of this "Righteousness" circular argument or equivocation; whether Righteousness is through faith or works, does your system accept that a non - Christian who behaves as well as any other Christian has an equal chance of being saved?

If person is righteous, he gets eternal life, by what Jesus tells in the Bible. And again, I think people should understand, actions don't make person righteous. If you would do all the right actions, it would not change you to righteous. Actions (faith included) are only result, like a fruit of a tree that tells what kind of tree one is. If person is righteous, he produces righteous actions.

If a non Christian is truly righteous, it means he has the right understanding and he will do righteous actions. And then he can be counted righteous and have eternal life.

Hint: appealing to following Jesus' words as a Righteous moral code fails, because the 'Message' sent in the Quran or Bhagavad Gita is also a moral code and one following those words is being Righteous according to that message.

Obviously, if we are speaking of eternal life promised for righteous, as the Bible tells, then the promise naturally is for those who are by Biblical description righteous. If other people have different definition, then the Biblical promise is not valid for them.

Then I still have to press. It looks like you accept that doing the right either by following the moral teachings of Jesus (rather than the nasty ones in the OT never mind the one in the other Abrahamic God - given morality of the Quaran or indeed LDS which only gave up polygamy for political reasons rather than doctrinal) or the best human moral codes, or both.

In which case why do we need Christianity at all? Human moral codes are in fact more sensible that Christian ones about giving all your stuff away and 'following' Jesus, whatever that means. Why not following moral codes of other religions? Why does the moral teaching of Jesus count for more than the moral teachings of the Quran?

You see, it looks like if you give up Faith in Jesus as the thing that saves and NOT the moral code, you have no need for Jesus at all, never mind no need for the Bible. You have not only invented your own brand of Christianity, you have invented a new brand of atheist apologetic.

P.s I have to argue that your particular doctrine is not what the Bible teaches. Despite your neat point that Paul meant Abraham believed (in what was said by) God rather that 'Abraham believed (in) God', I think that Faith in God added to by Faith in Jesus as resurrected messiah (needed to wipe out the extra sinning under the law) rather than morals, is what saves. And Mainstream Christian doctrine rather suggests that the Bible experts thought so too, doesn't it?

Tell me, if you can, aren't you really reading the Bible to suit yourself and reckoning you have it 'as the Bible says' in the face of Mainstream doctrine, because you have Faith and think that God hath revealethed the Truth unto you, isn't it? I really do think that's what all these people who think they are the only ones that hath had the Truth Revealethed unto them believe that. I concluded that as I followed believers damning each other as not really Christians (and quote mining whatever they needed to underpin their opinion) and would not even consider the other argument rationally but from Faithbased conviction.

Isn't this what you are doing? I have seen it before. .

[TRANSPONDER]

...Meaning, the way to get to Heaven, is by belief/faith. Right?...

My answer still is, those who are righteous, go to heaven, not because of anything they have done, but because they are righteous and God wants to give a gift for them. You can't do anything to earn heaven, it is a gift.

And since all humans are sinners, we can also achieve 'righteousness' by simply having faith in Jesus. So again, if you wish to state 'righteousness' is the way to Heaven, then you are picking answer B).

I think the problem here is that you think it is the action that makes one righteous. No, if person has righteous mind, he does righteous actions. Actions, like faith, are just results that tell what kind of person one is. Actions don't change person. But, if person has righteous actions, the actions can tell that the person is righteous and so person can be counted righteous by actions (including faith). The actions don't make person righteous, righteousness of a person makes his actions also righteous.

Then how does one get a righteous mind? It sounds like they get their morals from the Bible (NT not OT, I hope) and put them into practice. And I posted out above of why that leads to humanists get saved before Christians or any other religious moral code.

If you mean that Belief in God/Jesus is required before one can get God's correct moral mindset (which is Righteousness) then that is what i said - Faith in God existing is needed before belief in what God says to do, or in Christianity, Faith in Jesus is what makes Righteous rather than just living as he says to do. Faith, not works.

Here's the thing, or another thing. You reckon that Abraham doing what God said to do made him Righteous. But what about the israelites who believed in God but didn't get any orders to follow? Were they less righteous than Abraham? Or is a Christian who gets a direction to go and preach to the vulnerable...sorry, make that 'needful'... more likely to be saved than one who gets no such orders but just does his job, provides for the family and goes to Church on Sunday? Maybe, but it's a lousy system preferential for a favored few. But maybe that's what the parable of the talents is about. The faithful servant goes out and makes more money for the church and the one who just sits on his religion gets the howling and gnashing of teeth. Maybe that's a valid point for you. I certainly almost wish there was damnation and hellfire for all those shysters who lie and fiddle and exploit religion for their own wealth, power and nasty gratifications.

[POI]

...Meaning, the way to get to Heaven, is by belief/faith. Right?...

My answer still is, those who are righteous, go to heaven, not because of anything they have done, but because they are righteous and God wants to give a gift for them. You can't do anything to earn heaven, it is a gift.

And since all humans are sinners, we can also achieve 'righteousness' by simply having faith in Jesus. So again, if you wish to state 'righteousness' is the way to Heaven, then you are picking answer B).

I think the problem here is that you think it is the action that makes one righteous. No, if person has righteous mind, he does righteous actions. Actions, like faith, are just results that tell what kind of person one is. Actions don't change person. But, if person has righteous actions, the actions can tell that the person is righteous and so person can be counted righteous by actions (including faith). The actions don't make person righteous, righteousness of a person makes his actions also righteous.

Aren't thoughts also actions? Yes. Isn't any brain activity an action? Yes.

Regardless, YOUR answer differs from all other Christians who have contributed. You are all well read, well versed, and all earnest believers. The intent and purpose of this thread, is to demonstrate that the God you worship is the purveyor of confusion. Why? None of you guys agree. Thus, I pose this response for the third time:

Christians, imagine you are God for a moment. You are the creator of humans, and you really want a permanent relationship with your creation. You know most humans are either illiterate, stupid, and/or easily blinded/distracted by unwanted forces (natural and supernatural alike). You know there exists these collections of writings we later call the Bible, which apparently gives a road map on how to achieve eternal bliss - (or go to Heaven). You also know, because you are God, that most people will not achieve it. Many of which, however, try as they might. Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? I'll answer, as a fellow imaginer... No. I would not be satisfied. If I know the majority of my creation was, (again), illiterate, dumb, and/or easily distracted, I will make sure the written word was very easy to follow and also not leave any room for interpretation. You know, like all here clearly agree that God does not like murder, theft, trespassing, etc. And YET, we have countless denominations, all earnest in their attempt to translate what the Bible says. In essence, I blame God. He could provide any tool for the task and chose this one? All we have is the Bible. And as we have discovered, none of you fine folks agree. If you were God, I bet you would have devised a better plan of attack. What'za think?

[1213]

...imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? ...

I think Bible is a perfect book. The confusion doesn't come from the Bible, nor from God, because the message is clear in the Bible for everyone who remains in truth.