Shouldn't the Christian Infighting be Over?

[POI]

1213 made an excellent point in post 556 of this thread (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39327&start=550). He stated:

"People have enough understanding to get it and if someone thinks he doesn't have it, he can always ask wisdom from God to understand it correctly.".

Followed by the given Bible verse to back up his claim (i.e.):

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

******************

Well, some here claim to have such communication with "the almighty."

For debate: If the above verse is true, as well as Christians whose claims also comport with the Biblical claim, then why do Christians not know some Biblical answers? Case/point, I recently asked about the topic of Genesis being literal, vs. not? The Christian, who answered thus far, claims (paraphrased) -- they cannot know for sure, because the author is dead. Why wouldn't this individual simply ask for wisdom, in accordance with the Bible's claim?

Reference (viewtopic.php?t=41373). Post #16.

[Mae von H]

1213 made an excellent point in post 556 of this thread (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39327&start=550). He stated:

"People have enough understanding to get it and if someone thinks he doesn't have it, he can always ask wisdom from God to understand it correctly.".

Followed by the given Bible verse to back up his claim (i.e.):

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

******************

Well, some here claim to have such communication with "the almighty."

For debate: If the above verse is true, as well as Christians whose claims also comport with the Biblical claim, then why do Christians not know some Biblical answers? Case/point, I recently asked about the topic of Genesis being literal, vs. not? The Christian, who answered thus far, claims (paraphrased) -- they cannot know for sure, because the author is dead. Why wouldn't this individual simply ask for wisdom, in accordance with the Bible's claim?

Reference (viewtopic.php?t=41373). Post #16.

There are conditions for getting wisdom and understanding. “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” Not many ask God for either, few claim to have heard God and pride is promoted in churches today.

[POI]

1) There are conditions for getting wisdom and understanding. 2) “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” 3) Not many ask God for either, few claim to have heard God and pride is promoted in churches today.

1) What conditions, and where does it state this?
2) Humility cannot include the question of whether or not Genesis is literal?
3) So no one has asked question 2)?

So far, you have given claims, with no scriptural support. The claim, in the OP, gives the following verse which completely refutes your now baseless claims (i.e.):

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

[Mae von H]

1) There are conditions for getting wisdom and understanding. 2) “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” 3) Not many ask God for either, few claim to have heard God and pride is promoted in churches today.

1) What conditions, and where does it state this?

Jesus said if we keep His teaching He and the Father will make their dwelling in us. John 14:23. Peter quoted “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” Humility is a requirement.

2) Humility cannot include the question of whether or not Genesis is literal?

That wasn’t the question I answered.

3) So no one has asked question 2)?

The question was asked why Christians don’t agree. I answered that question.

So far, you have given claims, with no scriptural support. The claim, in the OP, gives the following verse which completely refutes your now baseless claims (i.e.):

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

Well let’s look beyond the verse you like. Same author. Is God obligated to give wisdom (or whatever) to those who ask.

1What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passionsa are at war within you?b 2You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions. 4You adulterous people!c Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? 6But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” 7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

So the question asked here was why there is infighting among believers. One assumed everyone could just ask for wisdom and God is obligated to supply such, no strings. James says there are strings and fairly stringent requirements for wisdom to be granted and when not, why not.

[POI]

Well let’s look beyond the verse you like. Same author. Is God obligated to give wisdom (or whatever) to those who ask.

Yes, let's do that. Please remember the title of this thread. There should be no infighting among Christians. And yet, there still exists scholarly debate. Why not just ask him? Which means you Christians would all agree to a simply asked earnest question, as to whether or not Genesis is literal? <I> would not ask him, as I am admittedly not a Christian. But Christians would all receive the same answer, if asked in earnest, right? What does the rest of James 1 say?

"5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do."

And since you are a true believer. you can ask him. Is Genesis meant to be literal, or not? Divulge this information here, and a hotly debated scholarly topic, among Christians, can soon be solved.

[Mae von H]

Well let’s look beyond the verse you like. Same author. Is God obligated to give wisdom (or whatever) to those who ask.

Yes, let's do that. Please remember the title of this thread. There should be no infighting among Christians.

From scripture and any superficial knowledge of people, there’s no reason to assume this. It’s like saying a professional orchestral always has all instruments in tune with no adjustments ever required no matter how long ago an adjustment was made because they are professionals.

And yet, there still exists scholarly debate. Why not just ask him? Which means you Christians would all agree to a simply asked earnest question, as to whether or not Genesis is literal? <I> would not ask him, as I am admittedly not a Christian. But Christians would all receive the same answer, if asked in earnest, right?

If you would ask Christians if they regularly hear God’s voice, you will find your answer. You are assuming they do. I’ve been a Christian many decades and this experience is RARE. Why? Because the church doesn’t teach this. One reason is obvious. If the members learned to hear His voice, they’d be under His authority and would be wise enough to know when the pastor is off. Best keep them away from that higher authority.

What does the rest of James 1 say?

"5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do."

And since you are a true believer. you can ask him. Is Genesis meant to be literal, or not? Divulge this information here, and a hotly debated scholarly topic, among Christians, can soon be solved.

Why should we think that me writing what I’ve heard will be listened to? They didn’t listen to Jesus, the Master, why should they listen to me, the servant?

What I’ve learned from Him directly or through others is fairly sweet and very deep. The question is too shallow for the answer. It’s a simple binary question covering millennia. Hebrew is a language rich in metaphor. This eludes too many who take the metaphor for literal physical matters and take literal experiences as metaphor and always for personal reasons. They’ve decided what theology pleases them and adjust scripture accordingly.

But let me ask you, what difference would the answer make for you?

[POI]

(Mea) From scripture and any superficial knowledge of people, there’s no reason to assume this.

(POI) Yes there is. I gave you the Biblical reason. If you deem yourself a true believer and follower, you have been given the go-ahead from Jesus himself. So please ask him. Are the said physical events in Genesis, like Noah's flood for instance, literal or not?

(Mea) It’s like saying a professional orchestral always has all instruments in tune with no adjustments ever required no matter how long ago an adjustment was made because they are professionals.

(POI) No, it's not like that. You claim you are a true-blue believer and follower, right? If you believe you are, and I believe you do believe you are, you should have nothing to worry about. Per James 1, you can easily ask him, and Jesus should be more than happy and willing to provide the wisdom. This goes the same for any true-blue believer. If Jesus isn't responding to such requests, then I guess you are not a true-blue follower, per James 1.

(Mea) If you would ask Christians if they regularly hear God’s voice, you will find your answer. You are assuming they do. I’ve been a Christian many decades and this experience is RARE. Why? Because the church doesn’t teach this.

(POI) Why would I care what "the church" teaches? Just down my street, a 7 Day Adventist church sets directly next door to a Baptist church, and a couple of doors down, exists a Mormon church. Which one is right? They all teach conflicting messages.

But guess what, I've been to many Pentecostal churches, and all of them appear to be communicating with God. They all run around, speak in tongues, raise their hands, shake, and all sorts of stuff, in the name of the Holy spirit, or Jesus, or what-have-you. If all of them are doing it, it must be real, right? I've never been to a Baptist church in person, but I've seen and heard similar stories there too. Maybe you are just going to the wrong church?

(Mea) One reason is obvious. If the members learned to hear His voice, they’d be under His authority and would be wise enough to know when the pastor is off. Best keep them away from that higher authority.

(POI) Again, if you are a true-blue believer, which I believe you believe you are, all I'm now reading from you are weak excuses as to why it will not work. Maybe subconsciously, you already know it's nonsense anyways?

(Mea) Why should we think that me writing what I’ve heard will be listened to? They didn’t listen to Jesus, the Master, why should they listen to me, the servant?

(POI) If Jesus speaks to the believers, and you all ask, you would then all AGREE. Christian to Christian scholarly debate over!

(Mea) What I’ve learned from Him directly or through others is fairly sweet and very deep. The question is too shallow for the answer. It’s a simple binary question covering millennia. Hebrew is a language rich in metaphor. This eludes too many who take the metaphor for literal physical matters and take literal experiences as metaphor and always for personal reasons. They’ve decided what theology pleases them and adjust scripture accordingly.

But let me ask you, what difference would the answer make for you?

(POI) What difference would it make? If you follow your Bible, you will know that Jesus welcomes all believers to ask for wisdom. You Christians would not disagree, unless:

a) James 1 is false
b) Jesus gives conflicting answers
c) Evil is blocking such requests
d) other?

[Mae von H]

(Mea) From scripture and any superficial knowledge of people, there’s no reason to assume this.

(POI) Yes there is. I gave you the Biblical reason.

And I gave you the biblical reason why your view isn’t so.

If you deem yourself a true believe and follower, you have been given the go-ahead from Jesus himself.

Where? We are to ask for wisdom, not information.

So please ask him. Are the said physical events in Genesis, like Noah's flood for instance, literal or not?

What difference will it make for you? I don’t understand why you ask.

(Mea) It’s like saying a professional orchestral always has all instruments in tune with no adjustments ever required no matter how long ago an adjustment was made because they are professionals.

(POI) No, it's not like that. You claim you are a true-blue believer and follower, right? If you believe you are, and I believe you do believe you are, you should have nothing to worry about.

I’m not worried. But you seem to
think that the christian’s always agree. Do the atheists always agree?

Per James 1, you can easily ask him, and Jesus should be more than happy and willing to provide the wisdom.

Well, He’s likely to again provide wisdom in how to answer an atheist. It’s very unlikely to provide the binary answer you demand that will do you no good. The point for me is not the answer you seek, as I know the answer. The question is how to respond.

This goes the same for any true-blue believer. If Jesus isn't responding to such requests, then I guess you are not a true-blue follower, per James 1.

Ah, the True Scotsman argument. I won’t fall for that one. Try another tactic.

(Mea) If you would ask Christians if they regularly hear God’s voice, you will find your answer. You are assuming they do. I’ve been a Christian many decades and this experience is RARE. Why? Because the church doesn’t teach this.

(POI) Why would I care what "the church" teaches? Just down my street, a 7 Day Adventist church sets directly next door to a Baptist church, and a couple of doors down, exists a Mormon church. Which one is right? They all teach conflicting messages.

If you want to understand what believers think, you’ll need to consider what they are taught.

But guess what, I've been to many Pentecostal churches, and all of them appear to be communicating with God. They all run around, speak in tongues, raise their hands, shake, and all sorts of stuff, in the name of the Holy spirit, or Jesus, or what-have-you. If all of them are doing it, it must be real, right?

No, none of that is a mark of God speaking. None. But that’s what I mean. The church didn’t teach you what that is.

I've never been to a Baptist church in person, but I've seen and heard similar stories there too. Maybe you are just going to the wrong church?

So far your church experience indicates you weren’t taught that. I know His voice quite well.

(Mea) One reason is obvious. If the members learned to hear His voice, they’d be under His authority and would be wise enough to know when the pastor is off. Best keep them away from that higher authority.

(POI) Again, if you are a true-blue believer, which I believe you believe you are, all I'm now reading from you are weak excuses as to why it will not work.

Works for me quite well. I will ask Him what you’re trying to prove.

Maybe subconsciously, you already know it's nonsense anyways?

incorrect.

(Mea) Why should we think that me writing what I’ve heard will be listened to? They didn’t listen to Jesus, the Master, why should they listen to me, the servant?

(POI) If Jesus speaks to the believers, and you all ask, you would then all AGREE. Christian to Christian scholarly debate over!

I’ve repeatedly told you the majority DO NOT ask.

(Mea) What I’ve learned from Him directly or through others is fairly sweet and very deep. The question is too shallow for the answer. It’s a simple binary question covering millennia. Hebrew is a language rich in metaphor. This eludes too many who take the metaphor for literal physical matters and take literal experiences as metaphor and always for personal reasons. They’ve decided what theology pleases them and adjust scripture accordingly.

But let me ask you, what difference would the answer make for you?

(POI) What difference would it make? If you follow your Bible, you will know that Jesus welcomes all believers to ask for wisdom.

Where did he say that?

You Christians would not disagree, unless:

a) James 1 is false
b) Jesus gives conflicting answers
c) Evil is blocking such requests
d) other?

That’s not what James said. God said He is against the proud so he gives NO wisdom to the proud. You keep forgetting the conditions.

[TRANSPONDER]

The answer as well as subsequent question and answer to that is right in front of us.But we don't do it (because just going with instinct is easier) plus tribal -reinforcing shibboleths determine who is Right and should absorb or eliminate the other Group. It explains everything from Holy wars to doctrinal power grabs. And quoting scripture to support the tribal culture rather than determine truth confuses rather than clarifies.

The answer, friends, is obvious. Those who suppose (and they do) that Jesusgod is downloading Truth into their heads of course believe their own preferences are God's truth and anyone who says different is deluded, in darkness, misled by satan, deserving of Hell and in the meantime, Jail, cancellation, the Ghetto, the rack and the stake. And it's no different in politics, friends.

The difference being that politics can only make appeal to morals and the Culturally Right way of doing things, while religion can play the divine command card and block all query - so long as they have the clout and authority.

But aside all that...which we still refuse to see,let alone believe, IF Jesusgod was in communication to his Faithful, wouldn't they be getting the same message? If it was true, there would be no sectarianism. It is not God but evolved survival instinct that drives all segregation, and religious the same as any other.



Pronouncing 'we are right' (or as we have seen I am right and mainstream Christianity doesn't Understand) supported by cherry -picked scripture and never mind context or relevance, is no more than self - delusion and we shouldn't fall for it.

[POI]

(Mea) And I gave you the biblical reason why your view isn’t so.

(POI) Below is the verses again, for reference. Show me where you are right, and I am wrong?

5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

(Mea) Where? We are to ask for wisdom, not information.

(POI) Where? Above in red. If you believe, and do not doubt, it will be given. Further, "wisdom" includes knowledge. Knowing what is truly meant about "Noah's flood' would be included in that knowledge.

(Mea) What difference will it make for you? I don’t understand why you ask.

(POI) It would make a difference. I would then have a bonafide answer, for which I have been asking and researching for years. Are you going to ask him?

(Mea) Ah, the True Scotsman argument. I won’t fall for that one. Try another tactic.

(POI) Nope. Your Bible says so, right here ---> If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt

Maybe you are doubtful? I wouldn't blame you.

(Mea) So far your church experience indicates you weren’t taught that. I know His voice quite well.

(POI) I've been to all kinds of churches. They all teach differing things. Kinda weird huh? So why reference 'the church"? Which one? What denomination, if any, are you, BTW?

(Mea) incorrect.

(POI) Does this mean you believe Jesus does speak to people, per James 1? If so, why have you not tried? Or have you?

(Mea) I’ve repeatedly told you the majority DO NOT ask.

(POI) This sounds foolish, and is in spite of James 1.

(Mea) That’s not what James said. God said He is against the proud so he gives NO wisdom to the proud. You keep forgetting the conditions.

(POI) Yes it does. A true Christian is not proud. I do not think you are proud either.