Genesis (Literal or Not)?

[POI]

Taken from post 359 of here (http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 2#p1139292)

Apparently, 'scholarly' debate still exists as to whether or not Genesis, (especially chapters 1-11), are meant to be a literal account of events or not?

For debate:

1) Is Genesis meant to be a literal account of events, as written, or not? The reason I do not specify is because I have even debated theists who claim the resurrection was not a literal event. Hence, we will first need to see where each theist thinks the Genesis account is literal, versus not? Please also provide scholarly evidence to support your answer where applicable.
2) Should God be pleased with his lack in clear communication here? Many have fallen away from the Bible, because such claims do not comport with their reality. If God's intent for Genesis was not to be literal, why do so many Bible scholars think God's message was literal? Further, if God's intent is to bring people to him, why give an unclear message which instead causes many to fall away, due to not aligning with their reality?

[TRANSPONDER]

Which of my arguments have been interpreted? The two I made was the daylight (morning and evening) before the sun was made. That is what the Bible says. You not only interpreted but invented a cosmic light that imitated daylight before there was any.

Bible doesn't use word daylight, but it speaks of a light before the sun. Why do you insist that no such light could not have existed?

As to prayer, the Bible guarantees it will be answered.It isn't, demonstrably. I even showed a post where you argues that some prayers are not answered. This isn't just 'interpretation by you but denial: denial of that the Bible says, denial of what is the case (prayers are not always answered) and denial of what you said yourself.

Bible doesn't guarantee that all possible prayers by anyone is answered. As i have shows, it depends on is person righteous and has he faith.

Yahweh is far from the wicked, But he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Prov. 15:29
But let him ask in faith, without any doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed. For let that man not think that he will receive anything from the Lord.
James 1:6-7
You lust, and don't have. You kill, covet, and can't obtain. You fight and make war. You don't have, because you don't ask. You ask, and don't receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it for your pleasures.
James 4:2-3

Those mean, if you don't get what you pray, it may be because:
1) You are not a disciple of Jesus.
2) You are not righteous.
3) You don't have enough faith.

And, if you are a righteous disciple of Jesus, then you pray like Jesus taught, that God's will happens, and it will happen.

Do you think you can bamboozle me? I said morning and evening. That was the first day. That's what it says. Light no doubt existed before the sun, but it was not daylight, morning and evening as Genesis 5 says.

First evasion. Prayers aren't answered if the person isn't righteous and does not have faith. This is an assumption on your part. Part of the appeal to undisprovables which is part of the inverted burden of proof package. This is just what I said you were doing when you swore that prayers were answered as it says in the Bible, now you are making excuses as to why they are not.

I don't even insist of illogicalimmoral orunreasonableprayers but allprayers for healing or lost limbs to be regrown.If that ghappend with prayer,we'd all be Christians.

Matthew 17 20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

One doesn't even need inordinate amounts of Faith. Just enough for God to do it when asked. You just ran out of excuses and the fact is that prayers are not answered as much and as regularly as the Gospels guarantee.

[1213]

I said morning and evening. That was the first day. That's what it says. Light no doubt existed before the sun, but it was not daylight

The word "daylight" is not in the Bible, so I don't really need to argue about that. However, Bible tells clearly that there was a light and there was also change in light. It can be possible without sun.

First evasion. Prayers aren't answered if the person isn't righteous and does not have faith.

Are you saying it is not what the Bible says?

If that ghappend with prayer,we'd all be Christians.

I don't believe that.

[TRANSPONDER]

I said morning and evening. That was the first day. That's what it says. Light no doubt existed before the sun, but it was not daylight

The word "daylight" is not in the Bible, so I don't really need to argue about that. However, Bible tells clearly that there was a light and there was also change in light. It can be possible without sun.

First evasion. Prayers aren't answered if the person isn't righteous and does not have faith.

Are you saying it is not what the Bible says?

If that happened with prayer, we'd all be Christians.

I don't believe that.

Xcuse corrected typo belatedly.

You keep digging yourself a hole by treating us all as idiots. Look at what the Bible (translated) actually says. Gen 1.3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

God separated the light from the dark; day and night. Day -light, morning and evening. Yes. No? What the Bible says and not what you claim it says? You are doing such a great job for atheism.

What more you got? I am not saying that God answers prayers of the unrighteous (though it seems their but that was not the argument as I recall I made clear prayers get answered even if they aren't praying- that happened to me):even those who are 'righteous'(had faith as Christians) don't always get their prayers answered or for sure there would be regular enough impossible cures that everyone would be a Christian as it was so obvious that prayer worked. So you keep digging your hole by strawmanning what my argument was.

I've said before what you believe or not doesn't matter. Ok, maybe there would be some denial, but if it was demonstrated beyond all doubt that Prayer was answered as promised in the Bible and it only happened that way with Christians how would any not have good reason to be a Christian? Even if not, the case would be made, the guarantee in the Bible honoured (as it currently is not) and we would have nothing to debate.

[1213]

...Look at what the Bible (translated) actually says. Gen 1.3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

God separated the light from the dark; day and night. *********, morning and evening. Yes. No? ...

Yes. God created light and also separation between light and darkness. This doesn't mean there should have been the sun for doing that.

....even those who are 'righteous'(had faith as Christians) don't always get their prayers answered...

Sorry, I think they get their prayers always answered as they pray that God's will happens rather than their will.

... how would any not have good reason to be a Christian?

Being a Christian means to be a disciple of Jesus. And that means one remains in word of Jesus. Many people don't like his words. Great miracles would not change that.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
John 8:31-32

[TRANSPONDER]

...Look at what the Bible (translated) actually says. Gen 1.3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

God separated the light from the dark; day and night. *********, morning and evening. Yes. No? ...

Yes. God created light and also separation between light and darkness. This doesn't mean there should have been the sun for doing that.

It says night and day, morning and evening. Your explanation means that God facricated a cosmic light to flick on and off to simulate the actions of a sun that hadn't been made yet? And you are now apparently saying that you do believe the sun was made later than the earth.

....even those who are 'righteous'(had faith as Christians) don't always get their prayers answered...

Sorry, I think they get their prayers always answered as they pray that God's will happens rather than their will.

That excuse doesn't answer as the guarantee in the Bible is that (given no impossible, immoral or harmful miracles, and taking accepting God's decision as a given, that does NOT amount to getting what they pray for within reason or prayer would be so reliable in curing disease, starvation and harmful accidents, we would not need hospitals, famine relief or the fire -brigade. These excuses do not work and the conclusion is that the promise made in the gospels is bunk, a fraud and lie. Your apologetic is the usual one for no good evidence - it seems to work as though it would if there was no god there, but they claim there is, somehow doing it like he wasn't there.

... how would any not have good reason to be a Christian?

Being a Christian means to be a disciple of Jesus. And that means one remains in word of Jesus. Many people don't like his words. Great miracles would not change that.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, “If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
John 8:31-32

You seem to have missed my point which was that it would be the obvious thing for Jesus/God to do to keep the promises made in the Bible and it be seen it was all right, fine and true, and there would be every reason to believe the true religion. Right now, it seems like the evidence is that it isn't any more right and true than any of the others and less so than skeptical materialism. The evidence for Christianity has gradually been leaching away and Christian apologetics increasingly is trying to excuse why the evidence does not support Christianity rather than (as before) proclaiming (falsely) that it does.

[1213]

Your explanation means that God facricated a cosmic light to flick on and off to simulate the actions of a sun that hadn't been made yet? And you are now apparently saying that you do believe the sun was made later than the earth.

Why should it be flicked on and off? Is sun flicked on and off in your opinion to cause day and night? It is possible that earth rotated, or that the light circled around the earth.

That excuse doesn't answer as the guarantee in the Bible is that (given no impossible, immoral or harmful miracles, and taking accepting God's decision as a given, that does NOT amount to getting what they pray for within reason or prayer would be so reliable in curing disease, starvation and harmful accidents, we would not need hospitals, famine relief or the fire -brigade. These excuses do not work and the conclusion is that the promise made in the gospels is bunk, a fraud and lie. ...

Do you have any other reason to reject these following scriptures than that they don't fit into your biased narrative?

Yahweh is far from the wicked, But he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Prov. 15:29
But let him ask in faith, without any doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed. For let that man not think that he will receive anything from the Lord.
James 1:6-7
You lust, and don't have. You kill, covet, and can't obtain. You fight and make war. You don't have, because you don't ask. You ask, and don't receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it for your pleasures.
James 4:2-3

[TRANSPONDER]

Your explanation means that God facricated a cosmic light to flick on and off to simulate the actions of a sun that hadn't been made yet? And you are now apparently saying that you do believe the sun was made later than the earth.

Why should it be flicked on and off? Is sun flicked on and off in your opinion to cause day and night? It is possible that earth rotated, or that the light circled around the earth.

Because a cosmic light would have to mimic day and night without the mechanism of a rotating earth and a sun in one locality.Never mind God beinmg misleading about how this translated to something the sun did.

That excuse doesn't answer as the guarantee in the Bible is that (given no impossible, immoral or harmful miracles, and taking accepting God's decision as a given, that does NOT amount to getting what they pray for within reason or prayer would be so reliable in curing disease, starvation and harmful accidents, we would not need hospitals, famine relief or the fire -brigade. These excuses do not work and the conclusion is that the promise made in the gospels is bunk, a fraud and lie. ...

Do you have any other reason to reject these following scriptures than that they don't fit into your biased narrative?

Do you have anything but misdirection and smears as part of your biased argument? One debunk is all it takes. It is misdirection and evasion to ignore that and demand more evidence.

Yahweh is far from the wicked, But he hears the prayer of the righteous.
Prov. 15:29
But let him ask in faith, without any doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven by the wind and tossed. For let that man not think that he will receive anything from the Lord.
James 1:6-7
You lust, and don't have. You kill, covet, and can't obtain. You fight and make war. You don't have, because you don't ask. You ask, and don't receive, because you ask with wrong motives, so that you may spend it for your pleasures.
James 4:2-3

All this shows is that the Bible contradicts itself. The first one is irrelevant. The guarantee is not that the 'unrighteous' get their prayers answered but the Believer in Faith - which is what I always said Righteousness was, not being a good person. Faith is what saves, not works. If that were the case the unbeliever could be righteous and have their prayers answered too, right?

[1213]

Because a cosmic light would have to mimic day and night without the mechanism of a rotating earth...

There is no good reason to claim earth could not have already rotated, or that the light could not have rotated around earth.

All this shows is that the Bible contradicts itself. The first one is irrelevant. The guarantee is not that the 'unrighteous' get their prayers answered but the Believer in Faith - which is what I always said Righteousness was, not being a good person. Faith is what saves, not works. If that were the case the unbeliever could be righteous and have their prayers answered too, right?

In Biblical point of view, it is God who saves, not anything humans do.

Good seems to be a subjective opinion. But, in the Bible, righteous person has many qualities that I think are good. Probably the greatest quality of righteous is the wisdom of the just, right understanding, which leads to good actions. But, could a righteous person be unbeliever, or weak believer, or have little faith (=loyalty)? I think it depends on what is actually believed. For example Thomas doubted that other disciples had seen Jesus, yet I think he could be counted righteous.

I believe prayer of righteous person is always answered. If unbeliever would be righteous, his prayer also would be righteous. And righteous person would not pray something that is against God's will.

[TRANSPONDER]

Because a cosmic light would have to mimic day and night without the mechanism of a rotating earth...

There is no good reason to claim earth could not have already rotated, or that the light could not have rotated around earth.

All this shows is that the Bible contradicts itself. The first one is irrelevant. The guarantee is not that the 'unrighteous' get their prayers answered but the Believer in Faith - which is what I always said Righteousness was, not being a good person. Faith is what saves, not works. If that were the case the unbeliever could be righteous and have their prayers answered too, right?

In Biblical point of view, it is God who saves, not anything humans do.

Good seems to be a subjective opinion. But, in the Bible, righteous person has many qualities that I think are good. Probably the greatest quality of righteous is the wisdom of the just, right understanding, which leads to good actions. But, could a righteous person be unbeliever, or weak believer, or have little faith (=loyalty)? I think it depends on what is actually believed. For example Thomas doubted that other disciples had seen Jesus, yet I think he could be counted righteous.

I believe prayer of righteous person is always answered. If unbeliever would be righteous, his prayer also would be righteous. And righteous person would not pray something that is against God's will.

I don't care about the Biblical point of view, nor what you happen to believe. I only care about what the Bible plainly says, not what people would prefer it to say; e.g "Whatever you ask in Faith (which you will need a lot of or it doesn't work) may be granted, if God thinks you should have it, not that He will tell you if or when or why not."

That, chum, is what it Ought to say but doesn't, and makes it not only unreliable (apart from the contradictory versions) but indistinguishable - as in most other cases - from how it would look if there was no God there at all.