NT variations - G.Mark ending

[Iasion]

Greetings all,

Some apologists like to claim we have accurate copies of the NT (as if this proves something.)

Well,
In fact,
the MSS tradition of the NT shows significant variations even in important parts.

Consider the ending of G.Mark -

G.Mark ends at 16:8 (WITHOUT the resurrection) in the following MSS :
* Sinaiticus
* Vaticanus
* Latin Codex Bobiensis,
* the Sinaitic Syriac manuscript,
* about 100 Armenian manuscripts,
* and the two oldest Georgian translations.

G.Mark has a variant SHORTER ending followed by the standard LONGER ending in the following MSS :
* four uncial Greek manuscripts of the seventh, eighth, and ninth centuries (L Y 099 0112),
* Old Latin k,
* the margin of the Harelean Syriac,
* several Sahidic and Bohairic manuscripts,
* and not a few Ethiopic manuscripts,

(Here is the SHort ending of G.Mark for reference
"But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told. And after this Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation." )

G.Mark has a variant SHORTER ending WITHOUT the standard LONGER ending in the following MSS :
* it (k) (Old Latin family)


Then we have ANOTHER late variant in w:

"And they excused themselves, saying, 'This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things of the spirits [or, does not allow what lies under the unclean spirits to understand the truth and power of God]. Therefore reveal thy righteousness now -- thus they spoke to Christ. And Christ replied to them, 'The term of years of Satan's power has been fulfilled, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who have sinned I was delivered over to death, that they may return to the truth and sin no more, in order that they may inherit the spiritual and incorruptible glory of righteousness which is in heaven.' "

(The majority have just the long ending.)


That's five different endings to G.Mark:
* 16:8 ends
* Long ending
* Short ending
* Short + long ending
* Washintoninaus variant


As Metzger says regarding 16:9-20 -

"Clement of Alexandria and Origen show no knowledge of the existence of these verses; furthermore Eusebius and Jerome attest that the passage was absent from almost all Greek copies of Mark known to them. The original form of the Eusebian sections (drawn up by Ammonius) makes no provision for numbering sections of the text after 16:8. Not a few manuscripts which contain the passage have scribal notes stating that older Greek copies lack it, and in other witnesses the passage is marked with asterisks or obeli, the conventional signs used by copyists to indicate a spurious addition to a document."


This all argues quite clearly that the ending of G.Mark - the resurrection of Jesus - was MISSING from the earlirst copies and added later.


Iasion

[theleftone]

This all argues quite clearly that the ending of G.Mark - the resurrection of Jesus - was MISSING from the earlirst copies and added later.

Incorrect.

"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.' "

[Lotan]

This all argues quite clearly that the ending of G.Mark - the resurrection of Jesus - was MISSING from the earlirst copies and added later.

Hi Iasion, I like your work.
In this case I have to disagree though. It's almost certain that something is missing from the ending of 'Mark', but since we don't know what that was, we can't categorically say that it wasn't a resurrection account of some type. I'm inclined to speculate that whatever the original ending may have been was in disagreement with the resurrection accounts in Matthew and Luke and was dropped for that reason.

[McCulloch]

Iason, would you mind editing the opening post to include a clear question for debate?

[theleftone]

I'm inclined to speculate that whatever the original ending may have been was in disagreement with the resurrection accounts in Matthew and Luke and was dropped for that reason.

Inclined on what grounds?

[1John2_26]

Greetings all,

Don't greet me your implied insulting spittal it is not decent. A typical denigrating and offensive remark following a Christian-bashing diatribe should be directed to your clubmembers. Just post your denigration and get on with it.

Some apologists like to claim we have accurate copies of the NT (as if this proves something.)

Some skeptics have no business challenging Christianty.

Well,
In fact,
the MSS tradition of the NT shows significant variations even in important parts.

As if Christians hide from the onslaught of smoke and mirror skepticism.

The End of Mark

Did the Gospel End at 16:8 -- and Would That Be a Problem?
James Patrick Holding

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Skeptics and critics alike have found grist for their mill in the assertion that Mark presents an inconsistency, and poses a problem, in that his Gospel ends with the women at the tomb thusly: "And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid." The other Gospels, it is said, have the women going right away and saying something to the apostles, and this is an inconsistency. From here as well some critics will charge that Mark represents an original state in "evolution" of Christianity in which no one knew what happened to Jesus' body.

It is worth noting, first of all, that even scholars of a liberal or moderate bent who say Mark ended at 16:8 (and no portion thereof is lost) do not see this "problem" at all. Campenhausen [Tradition and Life in the Church, 61, 71] supposes that Mark wished to show by the women's silence that the disciples themselves had nothing to do with the tomb being empty! This would then be an "anti-theft" apologetic in line with Matthew's account of the guards. He adds: "One can hardly take the text as meaning to the simple reader, and therefore to the author, anything but that the women first kept silent, so that the events which followed took place without any help from them and without any regard to the empty tomb." Vernon Robbins, a scholar who gives Acts about the same credence as a roll of toliet paper, supposes that the anamolous ending is a form of missionary call: "Now it is up to you to spread the Good News of the Gospel!" Finally, in the chauvinistic context of first-century society, having women discover the empty tomb would have been a detriment to the apologetic - indeed, it would have been counterproductive! If this were merely a late rationalization, we would have expected the tomb to be first found empty by Joe of A., or by one of the Apostles, or by a lesser MALE member of the apostolic band, like Cleopas. But this is not what we have: Instead, we have the "worst" possible scenario, one so inherently "smelly" that it could not possibly work as a rationalization - it could ONLY work if it reflected what actually happened, and it has to be assumed that the women did spill the beans at some point.

But that's all within the context-assumption that 16:8 is the original ending -- and the evidence is actually strongly against that being the case. Witherington in his commentary on Mark [415-418] provides a summary of the evidence, which we will in turn report here:

The Gospel of Mark, like all the Gospels, is in the genre of a laudatory biography. Such a work "is most unlikely to end in this fashion" but rather would end on a positive note.
Mark as a whole "goes to great lengths in the passion narrative to reveal fulfillment of early promises and predictions, especially those of Jesus, and this leads us to expect the same with the prediction of the resurrection appearance." Related to this, someone in a debate I have bene part of noted that Mark builds up heavily to a meeting in Galilee, but Mark 16:9-20 has a meeting in Jerusalem.
Mark, if he had wanted to suggest that the command by the angel to speak was disobeyed, would have introduced their activity with an adversative as he does in other situations of disobedience (1:45, 7:36, 10:14, 10:22, 10:48, 15:23, 15:37).
Mark's Gospel as it stands end with an unusual word, a conjunction, that does not appear as the last word in any work, with the possible exception of a work of Plotinus. It would be a very unusual word to end a work on; it amounts to ending a work in "because" or "for." There are sentences and paragraphs that end with this word (inlcuding John 13:13) but to end an entire work thusly is otherwise unverified, except for Plotinus, and that may also have lost an ending!
If there is a point of comparison within Mark, it is Mark 1:44, where a leper is told to be silent to others, but go and tell the appropriate person, the high priest. "This would suggest that the women were to be silent to the general public, but to communicate with the disciples."
From 15:40 to 16:8, Mark "has carefully built the case for the women to be valid witnesses" to the Easter message. Especially in light of the problem of women's testimony noted above, it hardly makes sense that Mark would build his case, then undermine it or render it moot be giving the women a case of permanent closed mouth.
A consideration is that 1 Cor. 15 shows that resurrection appearances were part of the earliest Christian tradition. Especially for those who date Mark later than 1 Corinthians (70 vs. 50-55), this raises the problem of how Mark could have left out any record of appearances.
Finally, there is this consideration: The parallel construction of the Greek, and the imperfect verb tenses, imply that "for the circumscribed period of time the women were in terror and fled from the tomb, they said nothing to anyone." They would speak once the fear (perhaps in the form of religious awe -- cf. Luke 1:29-30) had subsided.
Bottom line: All arguments which focus on 16:8 as the intended ending of Mark's Gospel have a great deal to reckon with before they can peddle any related theories of conspiracy or inconsistency.


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And now for a look at some response, in the main from the Chrisadelphian apologist we have dubbed "Egomanion" but also in reply to some articles he has cited, and now from another article we have found, arguing for the veracity of Mark 16:9-20. Let us begin by stating at the outset that the reasons given for doubting the authenticity of this passage -- which we previously gave in another article -- may be arranged in order of importance. Here are those reasons, with some commentary added.

External evidence. The two earliest parchment codices, Vaticanus B and Sinaiticus, plus 2 minuscules and several versions and manuscripts, do not contain verses 9-20. Two important early Christian writers testify that these verses are not found in Mark: Eusebius (Quaestiones ad Marinum I) says that they are not in "accurate" copies of Mark and are missing from "almost all" manuscripts; Jerome (Epistle CXX.3, ad Hedibiam) testifies that almost all Greek manuscripts of his time lack vss. 9-20. Many manuscripts that do have these verses "have scholia stating that older Greek copies lack them," and other textual witnesses add "conventional signs used by scribes to mark off a spurious addition to a literary text." (There are also three variant endings of Mark in circulation. Our vss. 9-20 are the most common, but there is also a "short" ending, and seven Greek manuscripts with both the long and short ending. However, this particular evidence may be too late to be of any relevance.)

The above evidence is absolutely decisive by the canons of textual criticism (whether secular or Biblical). Indeed the internal evidence noted below is not so much proof as it is supplementation in light of the above. No argument for the authenticity of Mark 16:9-20 (hereafter, M16) can move without refuting each of the points above.

Internal evidence. There is a sudden change in subject from verse 8 (the women) to verse 9 (Jesus). Other alleged examples in Mark (such as with Peter's denials) fail as comparisons, for they are clearly in the form of a Markan "sandwich" that returns to a prior issue, and that is manifestly not what happens here; the original "issue" is never returned to. Mary Magdalene is introduced as one from whom Jesus had cast out seven demons, as though she had not been introduced in the Gospel before. A singular reply on the point of Mary Mag has been made, that the mention of Mary mother of James in 16:1 required this Mary to be further described. This objection fails since identifying this Mary as "Magdalene" would have provided every bit of the discrimination needed.

The form, language, and style "militate against Marcan authorship." There are seventeen non-Marcan words or Marcan words used in a non-Marcan sense. There is no instance of the typical Marcan stylistic transitions or methods (such as beginning a phrase with a parataxis). Overall, the passage has the "distinct flavour of the second century" and appears to be a pastiche of material taken from other Gospels. While one may argue that there are examples of any one of these sorts of flukes in other places (i.e., that Luke 1:1-12 has 20 words forms unique to that portion of text -- though comparing a classical historian sort like Luke to a peasant team of Mark and Peter is a little shaky!), the fact that all of these faults appear together in such a short passage removes any force of finding passages that compare on single points.

With this in mind, let's now have a look at Egomanion's counters and those of like mind.

Egomanion himself argues that authenticity is favored in that it "is found in the majority of Old Latin texts as well as the Coptic Versions and other early translations." This is not at all the case. The late Latin and Coptic texts, in the canon of textual-critical principles, do not constitute any evidence of originality in light of the above external evidence. Egomanion goes on to argue that the "legitimacy of the passage is also confirmed by many of the early Church Fathers - which would be impossible if it was a later interpolation." What Egomanion thinks to be "impossible" is not impossible in the least. To begin, he can find no earlier witness than Ireneaus in the late second century -- the same time as when M16 is evidenced in available manuscripts, according to some dating schemas (but not the majority). His other authorities are from 397 and 430, which make them worthless for determining whether M16 was added in the second century, and their testimony is stood against by other patristic testimony -- cited above -- that the passage does not belong. Second, not one of the Fathers he cites offers any defense for the authenticity of M16.

It seems that proponents of Mark 16:9-20 are all following on this account the work of one Dean Burgon -- a scholar, though not one of textual criticism -- who simply could not conceive of any other methods of textual criticism than, "the majority have it so it must be right." Some take the lack of response to Burgon as proof of his irrefutability, never once thinking that he is ignored because his responses were so misinformed that had no idea what he was talking about. For those enamored of Burgon and those who use him, we would recommend a look at two articles from the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, one by esteemed scholar of the Greek, Daniel Wallace ("The Majority Text Theory: History, Methods and Critique" -- 37/2, 1994, 185-215) and another by Mark Heuer ("An REvaluation of John W. Burgon's Use of Patristic Evidence" -- 38/4, 514-19). Wallace notes that Burgon's methodology was governed by an assumption that God preserved an inerrant text (an idea that is misdirected, and both he and Heuer note his tendency to dismiss manuscript evidence he did not like with nothing but emotional diatribes. In essence, if a text didn't say what Burgon wanted, it was corrupted. Burgon was also not afraid to resort to such excuses and contrivances as that textual evidence from early dates, for the texts he needed, was lacking not because the texts did not exist, but because his preferred texts were considered so useful that they were worn out from use and disappeared! Obviously Burgon allowed his methods to interpret the facts rather than letting the facts speak for themselves. Finally, in terms of the NT, Wallace notes that in Burgon's time there was only one NT papyri known; today there are nearly 100, and none of these agree with what Burgon would have preferred.

Burgon is also routinely hailed for an enormous collection of patristic cites he collated, but as Heuer notes, this entire project has a scent of uselessness about it, as Burgon did not make use of critical texts of patristic writers in his project. Indeed, many of his cites "are useless because they reflect not the Father's texts but the conformation of the texts" to the ecclesiology of the Middle Ages! Those who rely on Burgon should take his word with a critical eye.

We also now would look at another aspect of the external evidence argument, that is, alleged allusions to this passage. Of course only writers who allude to this passage earlier than the very late second century are of any relevance here.

Claimed is a "probable allusion to Mark 16:18" by Papias, as recorded by Eusebius. But this is tremendously misleading, for here is what Eusebius says: "[Papias] also mentions another miracle relating to Justus, surnamed Barsabas, how he swallowed a deadly poison, and received no harm, on account of the grace of the Lord." Papias is NOT being quoted here, and if anything, Eusebius is using an allusion to Mark 16:18 of his own to describe what Papias says. There is no evidence that Papias himself alluded to Mark 16:18. In addition, as Heuer notes, Mark 16:18 does not even use the same word for "deadly thing" as Eusebius: It is thanasmos in Mark, but pharmakon in Eusebius.
Claimed also is Justin Martyr, c. 165 AD, with a "probable allusion to Mark 16:20." It is claimed that Justin uses the phrases "of the word" and "went forth and preached everywhere" (my source for this criticism did not note the "everywhere" as a parallel; another opponent did) in a way reminiscent of Mark 16:20. But note how this works out:
Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.

Justin, First Apology, 45 And that God the Father of all would bring Christ to heaven after He had raised Him from the dead, and would keep Him there until He has subdued His enemies the devils, and until the number of those who are foreknown by Him as good and virtuous is complete, on whose account He has still delayed the consummation--hear what was said by the prophet David. These are his words: "The Lord said unto My Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool. The Lord shall send to Thee the rod of power out of Jerusalem; and rule Thou in the midst of Thine enemies. With Thee is the government in the day of Thy power, in the beauties of Thy saints: from the womb of morning hare I begotten Thee." That which he says, "He shall send to Thee the rod of power out of Jerusalem," is predictive of the mighty, word, which His apostles, going forth from Jerusalem, preached everywhere; and though death is decreed against those who teach or at all confess the name of Christ, we everywhere both embrace and teach it. And if you also read these words in a hostile spirit, ye can do no more, as I said before, than kill us; which indeed does no harm to us, but to you and all who unjustly hate us, and do not repent, brings eternal punishment by tire.

Not only are the phrases in the wrong order, they are used in different ways. Furthermore, "the word" is used so often in the NT (over 140 times) that any "allusion" would be unable to be specified, and harks to no particular advantage for Mark 16:20; while "went forth and preached" is also found in Mark 1:45 and 6:12 (and are also in reverse order in 1:38). Both words, however, are used so often and describe such a pertinent aspect of Christianity (preaching and missionary work, with "every where" a common statement of location, in the works of Luke) that it's as helpful to suggest an allusion in words like "the" and "God" and "Christ".

Around 177 AD, it is said that "Irenaeus quotes Mark 16:19 outright". This is accurate -- though I leave open to question whether this was added by Irey or one of his students -- as is a claim that Mark 16:9-20 was included in the Diatesseron of Tatian, usually dated around 175 AD (though again, this is just as well a late addition; or if Mark 16:9-20 were created around 150, as many scholars aver, it makes no difference). However, this evidence is equivocal as it is also to this time that our earliest external evidence is dated, according to the earliest I have seen it reckoned. It remains that there is no solid allusional evidence for this passage prior to the dates of the earliest manuscripts.
In terms of internal evidence, Egomanion offers the extremely naive argument that the parallels in Luke 10:19 and Acts 14:3 support M16's originality. It does no such thing; it merely suggests cites from which some of M16 was cobbled together, taken from their original context (though not always in violation of it).

Now let us look at arguments presented from three witnesses cited by Egomanion:

Bruce Terry -- Shockingly for a professor of Bible and Humanities, Terry waves off the external evidence in one sentence: "The question of authorship of verses 9 through 20 of the last chapter of Mark cannot be decided on the basis of textual evidence, since they are omitted by some good manuscripts and included by other good ones." That is all he has to say on the subject! Such a line would have Bruce Metzger doing the boogie woogie on Terry's head with a croquet mallet. Instead Terry argues that authenticity "must be determined, if possible, on the basis of style". In light of the argument by the textual specialist Yule -- whose work we have noted in our work on the Pastorals -- that at least a 10,000 word sample is required to make stylistic determinations, and that M16 falls about 9900 words short of this, Terry's arguments are an exercise in despair.
That said, what of the arguments from above Terry does address? Terry does admit that the "transition between verses 8 and 9 does seem awkward" and that an "exact parallel containing all the features of this juncture cannot be found elsewhere in Mark". However, he says that "the various features may be found in different transitions between sections in Mark." This is an illicit move by Terry. By such means one may argue away any unique feature, by paring it down into the lowest common denominator. It is by such means that critics "find" parallels between Jesus and various "copycat" saviors.

Terry answers the point about Mary Mag's description by arguing that "this is not, strictly speaking, an identifying phrase; it is rather a type of flashback that gives additional information about Mary Magdalene. This same type of flashback is found at least four times elsewhere in Mark." There is a vast difference, however, between this mention and the others: by M16, Mary Mag had been mentioned three times. The only example Terry gives from Mark that comes close to this is Mark 3:16, where "Simon was surnamed Peter by Jesus, although Simon had been mentioned several times previously. We know this is a flashback because John 1:42 tells us it happened when Simon Peter first met Jesus." The "several" is actually just three, and Mark 3:16 is part of a list of the apostles that gives such information about ALL of them as required (i.e., James and John being called Boanerges). There is no such categorical restriction with respect to Mary Mag. Terry's other two examples are both within the same Markan pericope and do not parallel the issue with respect to M16.

Terry next notes, "The fourth objection to the juncture between this last section of Mark and the previous one is that the use of anastas de ('Now rising') and the position of proton ('first') in verse 9 are ill-suited in a continuation of verses 1-8, even though they would be appropriate at the beginning of a comprehensive narrative. It is only necessary to point out that verse 9 is not a continuation of the section found in verse 1-8; it is the start of a new one." So it is. And this points directly to a later interpolation. Terry has not answered this objection; he has just put a spin on it that proves our point!

Terry considers the "most serious objection with regard to juncture" to be the ending of verse 8 ends with the conjunction gar ("for"). We will not pursue this line as there are some arguments, and perhaps one actual parallel, to such an ending in classical literature; the argument is therefore indecisive.

Terry next addresses arguments based on vocabulary. He summarizes:

(1) sixteen words used in this section are not used elsewhere in the Gospel of Mark; (2) three of these words are used more than once in this section; and (3) this section does not contain some of Mark's favorite words: eutheos or euthus (both meaning "immediately") and palin ("again").
The main objection to the Markan authorship of these verses based on vocabulary is that sixteen words used in this section are not used elsewhere in the Gospel of Mark. The sixteen words are: poreuomai ("go," three times, vv. 10, 12, 15), pentheo ("mourn," v. 10), theaomai ("see," twice, vv. 11, 14), apisteo ("not believe, disbelieve," twice, vv. 11, 16), heteros ("another, different," v. 12), morphe ("form," v. 12), husteron ("afterward," v. 14), endeka ("eleven," v. 14), parakoloutheo ("follow, accompany," v. 17), ophis ("serpent, snake," v. 18), thanasimos ("deadly," v. 18), blapto ("hurt, harm," v. 18), analambano ("receive up, take up," v. 19), sunergeo ("work with," v. 20), bebaioo ("confirm," v. 20), and epakoloutheo ("follow, attend," v. 10).
A few of these words -- ophis, morphe, endeka -- are fairly words we would expect to be unique as Mark would hardly have use for them anywhere else. Terry also notes that about 6-7 of these words have words using the same roots elsewhere in Mark. This cuts down the amount by about half, which does still leave this as supporting evidence to the decisive external evidence. Terry's reply beyond this is methodologically sound but in principle somewhat flawed. He notes that between Mark 15:40 and 16:4, one may also find 20-22 words that are used nowhere else in Mark; however, he includes in his list two proper names! Terry does well to point out that unique words may be used only because a situation warrants it. However, in his list of words from 15:40-16:4 only two or three are not for unique situations, which still, comparatively for M16, is below par. Indeed in a chart comparing number of words used only once, M16 ties for third, behind Mark 15 -- the chapter on the unique event of the crucifixion -- and Mark 7 -- a chapter that includes a list of sins, several geographic references, and an Aramaic word. Chapter 13 is Mark's little apocalypse and ties with M16 in terms of ratio. Given the "specialty" nature of these three chapters, if anything the inauthenticity of the more mundane M16 (in terms of subject) is highlighted. At best Terry has only made the case from this point less persuasive, but not eliminated it. Mere ratios will not tell us enough here. Indeed, one may go on (as Terry does) to divide down by any method and achieve any variety of ratios, whether dividing by chapter, sentence, or pericope, which makes the comparison system practically worthless.

Terry's next arguments have to do with phraseology, and none of the arguments he answers are those we specifically endorse. In short, Terry puts a dent of thought in the Volkswagen of the internal evidence arguments, but this will do no good when the 18 wheeler of external evidence is bearing down on him.

Warren Gage -- actually a professor of Old Testament at Knox Seminary, Gage offers "two lines of literary analysis that offer the promise of a textual reconstruction largely freed from the textual critic's heavy dependence on the manuscript evidence" -- which is rather like speaking of "lines of cooking that offer the promise of a recipe largely freed from the chef's heavy dependence on food." In short, like Terry, Gage waves away the hard data with a sniffle and does not even deal with it. Gage's argument begins with a proposition that if M16 is included, we are able to detect several patterns of chaismus in Mark as a whole, which is broken often if M16 is excluded. Those who get too "happy" about this, however, might consider that such structures are also routinely detected in the Book of Mormon by LDS apologists. Some of Gage's contact points moreover are rather so generalized as to be questionable ("of Power", "of God" for example). A later attempt to "repair" the ending of Mark is just as apt to be based on recognition of just such a pattern by a later writer -- and this is one reason why internal evidence takes a back seat to external evidence.

Gage also argues that M16 fulfills an "Elijah" theme prominent in Mark, but even if true -- which we see no need to dispute -- the only part of M16 he finds that fits this is Jesus' ascension, which is again something that would historically be included regardless of the authenticity of M16.

Robert Cramer -- Egomanion's last witness, as it happens, doesn't even support his view but agrees with mine!

So what has Egomanion done? He has produced one witness who agrees with me, and two who don't even deal with that 18 wheeler of external textual evidence. In short, he has once again failed in his quest.

See Skeptic X waste his time (why??) battering his head against this article here.

[Lotan]

Inclined on what grounds?

I think that it would be odd if the original ending was simply 'lost'. This would imply that it was purposefully removed for some reason. Mark portrays Jesus in a more mundane fashion than the later gospels, so maybe the original ending required more than just redaction in order to agree with the theological position of the later gospels. As I said, I'm just speculating.

[The Nice Centurion]

Greetings all,

Don't greet me your implied insulting spittal it is not decent. A typical denigrating and offensive remark following a Christian-bashing diatribe should be directed to your clubmembers. Just post your denigration and get on with it.

Some apologists like to claim we have accurate copies of the NT (as if this proves something.)

Some skeptics have no business challenging Christianty.

Well,
In fact,
the MSS tradition of the NT shows significant variations even in important parts.

As if Christians hide from the onslaught of smoke and mirror skepticism.

The End of Mark

Did the Gospel End at 16:8 -- and Would That Be a Problem?
James Patrick Holding

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Skeptics and critics alike have found grist for their mill in the assertion that Mark presents an inconsistency, and poses a problem, in that his Gospel ends with the women at the tomb thusly: "And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid." The other Gospels, it is said, have the women going right away and saying something to the apostles, and this is an inconsistency. From here as well some critics will charge that Mark represents an original state in "evolution" of Christianity in which no one knew what happened to Jesus' body.

It is worth noting, first of all, that even scholars of a liberal or moderate bent who say Mark ended at 16:8 (and no portion thereof is lost) do not see this "problem" at all. Campenhausen [Tradition and Life in the Church, 61, 71] supposes that Mark wished to show by the women's silence that the disciples themselves had nothing to do with the tomb being empty! This would then be an "anti-theft" apologetic in line with Matthew's account of the guards. He adds: "One can hardly take the text as meaning to the simple reader, and therefore to the author, anything but that the women first kept silent, so that the events which followed took place without any help from them and without any regard to the empty tomb." Vernon Robbins, a scholar who gives Acts about the same credence as a roll of toliet paper, supposes that the anamolous ending is a form of missionary call: "Now it is up to you to spread the Good News of the Gospel!" Finally, in the chauvinistic context of first-century society, having women discover the empty tomb would have been a detriment to the apologetic - indeed, it would have been counterproductive! If this were merely a late rationalization, we would have expected the tomb to be first found empty by Joe of A., or by one of the Apostles, or by a lesser MALE member of the apostolic band, like Cleopas. But this is not what we have: Instead, we have the "worst" possible scenario, one so inherently "smelly" that it could not possibly work as a rationalization - it could ONLY work if it reflected what actually happened, and it has to be assumed that the women did spill the beans at some point.

But that's all within the context-assumption that 16:8 is the original ending -- and the evidence is actually strongly against that being the case. Witherington in his commentary on Mark [415-418] provides a summary of the evidence, which we will in turn report here:

The Gospel of Mark, like all the Gospels, is in the genre of a laudatory biography. Such a work "is most unlikely to end in this fashion" but rather would end on a positive note.
Mark as a whole "goes to great lengths in the passion narrative to reveal fulfillment of early promises and predictions, especially those of Jesus, and this leads us to expect the same with the prediction of the resurrection appearance." Related to this, someone in a debate I have bene part of noted that Mark builds up heavily to a meeting in Galilee, but Mark 16:9-20 has a meeting in Jerusalem.
Mark, if he had wanted to suggest that the command by the angel to speak was disobeyed, would have introduced their activity with an adversative as he does in other situations of disobedience (1:45, 7:36, 10:14, 10:22, 10:48, 15:23, 15:37).
Mark's Gospel as it stands end with an unusual word, a conjunction, that does not appear as the last word in any work, with the possible exception of a work of Plotinus. It would be a very unusual word to end a work on; it amounts to ending a work in "because" or "for." There are sentences and paragraphs that end with this word (inlcuding John 13:13) but to end an entire work thusly is otherwise unverified, except for Plotinus, and that may also have lost an ending!
If there is a point of comparison within Mark, it is Mark 1:44, where a leper is told to be silent to others, but go and tell the appropriate person, the high priest. "This would suggest that the women were to be silent to the general public, but to communicate with the disciples."
From 15:40 to 16:8, Mark "has carefully built the case for the women to be valid witnesses" to the Easter message. Especially in light of the problem of women's testimony noted above, it hardly makes sense that Mark would build his case, then undermine it or render it moot be giving the women a case of permanent closed mouth.
A consideration is that 1 Cor. 15 shows that resurrection appearances were part of the earliest Christian tradition. Especially for those who date Mark later than 1 Corinthians (70 vs. 50-55), this raises the problem of how Mark could have left out any record of appearances.
Finally, there is this consideration: The parallel construction of the Greek, and the imperfect verb tenses, imply that "for the circumscribed period of time the women were in terror and fled from the tomb, they said nothing to anyone." They would speak once the fear (perhaps in the form of religious awe -- cf. Luke 1:29-30) had subsided.
Bottom line: All arguments which focus on 16:8 as the intended ending of Mark's Gospel have a great deal to reckon with before they can peddle any related theories of conspiracy or inconsistency.


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And now for a look at some response, in the main from the Chrisadelphian apologist we have dubbed "Egomanion" but also in reply to some articles he has cited, and now from another article we have found, arguing for the veracity of Mark 16:9-20. Let us begin by stating at the outset that the reasons given for doubting the authenticity of this passage -- which we previously gave in another article -- may be arranged in order of importance. Here are those reasons, with some commentary added.

External evidence. The two earliest parchment codices, Vaticanus B and Sinaiticus, plus 2 minuscules and several versions and manuscripts, do not contain verses 9-20. Two important early Christian writers testify that these verses are not found in Mark: Eusebius (Quaestiones ad Marinum I) says that they are not in "accurate" copies of Mark and are missing from "almost all" manuscripts; Jerome (Epistle CXX.3, ad Hedibiam) testifies that almost all Greek manuscripts of his time lack vss. 9-20. Many manuscripts that do have these verses "have scholia stating that older Greek copies lack them," and other textual witnesses add "conventional signs used by scribes to mark off a spurious addition to a literary text." (There are also three variant endings of Mark in circulation. Our vss. 9-20 are the most common, but there is also a "short" ending, and seven Greek manuscripts with both the long and short ending. However, this particular evidence may be too late to be of any relevance.)

The above evidence is absolutely decisive by the canons of textual criticism (whether secular or Biblical). Indeed the internal evidence noted below is not so much proof as it is supplementation in light of the above. No argument for the authenticity of Mark 16:9-20 (hereafter, M16) can move without refuting each of the points above.

Internal evidence. There is a sudden change in subject from verse 8 (the women) to verse 9 (Jesus). Other alleged examples in Mark (such as with Peter's denials) fail as comparisons, for they are clearly in the form of a Markan "sandwich" that returns to a prior issue, and that is manifestly not what happens here; the original "issue" is never returned to. Mary Magdalene is introduced as one from whom Jesus had cast out seven demons, as though she had not been introduced in the Gospel before. A singular reply on the point of Mary Mag has been made, that the mention of Mary mother of James in 16:1 required this Mary to be further described. This objection fails since identifying this Mary as "Magdalene" would have provided every bit of the discrimination needed.

The form, language, and style "militate against Marcan authorship." There are seventeen non-Marcan words or Marcan words used in a non-Marcan sense. There is no instance of the typical Marcan stylistic transitions or methods (such as beginning a phrase with a parataxis). Overall, the passage has the "distinct flavour of the second century" and appears to be a pastiche of material taken from other Gospels. While one may argue that there are examples of any one of these sorts of flukes in other places (i.e., that Luke 1:1-12 has 20 words forms unique to that portion of text -- though comparing a classical historian sort like Luke to a peasant team of Mark and Peter is a little shaky!), the fact that all of these faults appear together in such a short passage removes any force of finding passages that compare on single points.

With this in mind, let's now have a look at Egomanion's counters and those of like mind.

Egomanion himself argues that authenticity is favored in that it "is found in the majority of Old Latin texts as well as the Coptic Versions and other early translations." This is not at all the case. The late Latin and Coptic texts, in the canon of textual-critical principles, do not constitute any evidence of originality in light of the above external evidence. Egomanion goes on to argue that the "legitimacy of the passage is also confirmed by many of the early Church Fathers - which would be impossible if it was a later interpolation." What Egomanion thinks to be "impossible" is not impossible in the least. To begin, he can find no earlier witness than Ireneaus in the late second century -- the same time as when M16 is evidenced in available manuscripts, according to some dating schemas (but not the majority). His other authorities are from 397 and 430, which make them worthless for determining whether M16 was added in the second century, and their testimony is stood against by other patristic testimony -- cited above -- that the passage does not belong. Second, not one of the Fathers he cites offers any defense for the authenticity of M16.

It seems that proponents of Mark 16:9-20 are all following on this account the work of one Dean Burgon -- a scholar, though not one of textual criticism -- who simply could not conceive of any other methods of textual criticism than, "the majority have it so it must be right." Some take the lack of response to Burgon as proof of his irrefutability, never once thinking that he is ignored because his responses were so misinformed that had no idea what he was talking about. For those enamored of Burgon and those who use him, we would recommend a look at two articles from the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, one by esteemed scholar of the Greek, Daniel Wallace ("The Majority Text Theory: History, Methods and Critique" -- 37/2, 1994, 185-215) and another by Mark Heuer ("An REvaluation of John W. Burgon's Use of Patristic Evidence" -- 38/4, 514-19). Wallace notes that Burgon's methodology was governed by an assumption that God preserved an inerrant text (an idea that is misdirected, and both he and Heuer note his tendency to dismiss manuscript evidence he did not like with nothing but emotional diatribes. In essence, if a text didn't say what Burgon wanted, it was corrupted. Burgon was also not afraid to resort to such excuses and contrivances as that textual evidence from early dates, for the texts he needed, was lacking not because the texts did not exist, but because his preferred texts were considered so useful that they were worn out from use and disappeared! Obviously Burgon allowed his methods to interpret the facts rather than letting the facts speak for themselves. Finally, in terms of the NT, Wallace notes that in Burgon's time there was only one NT papyri known; today there are nearly 100, and none of these agree with what Burgon would have preferred.

Burgon is also routinely hailed for an enormous collection of patristic cites he collated, but as Heuer notes, this entire project has a scent of uselessness about it, as Burgon did not make use of critical texts of patristic writers in his project. Indeed, many of his cites "are useless because they reflect not the Father's texts but the conformation of the texts" to the ecclesiology of the Middle Ages! Those who rely on Burgon should take his word with a critical eye.

We also now would look at another aspect of the external evidence argument, that is, alleged allusions to this passage. Of course only writers who allude to this passage earlier than the very late second century are of any relevance here.

Claimed is a "probable allusion to Mark 16:18" by Papias, as recorded by Eusebius. But this is tremendously misleading, for here is what Eusebius says: "[Papias] also mentions another miracle relating to Justus, surnamed Barsabas, how he swallowed a deadly poison, and received no harm, on account of the grace of the Lord." Papias is NOT being quoted here, and if anything, Eusebius is using an allusion to Mark 16:18 of his own to describe what Papias says. There is no evidence that Papias himself alluded to Mark 16:18. In addition, as Heuer notes, Mark 16:18 does not even use the same word for "deadly thing" as Eusebius: It is thanasmos in Mark, but pharmakon in Eusebius.
Claimed also is Justin Martyr, c. 165 AD, with a "probable allusion to Mark 16:20." It is claimed that Justin uses the phrases "of the word" and "went forth and preached everywhere" (my source for this criticism did not note the "everywhere" as a parallel; another opponent did) in a way reminiscent of Mark 16:20. But note how this works out:
Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.

Justin, First Apology, 45 And that God the Father of all would bring Christ to heaven after He had raised Him from the dead, and would keep Him there until He has subdued His enemies the devils, and until the number of those who are foreknown by Him as good and virtuous is complete, on whose account He has still delayed the consummation--hear what was said by the prophet David. These are his words: "The Lord said unto My Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool. The Lord shall send to Thee the rod of power out of Jerusalem; and rule Thou in the midst of Thine enemies. With Thee is the government in the day of Thy power, in the beauties of Thy saints: from the womb of morning hare I begotten Thee." That which he says, "He shall send to Thee the rod of power out of Jerusalem," is predictive of the mighty, word, which His apostles, going forth from Jerusalem, preached everywhere; and though death is decreed against those who teach or at all confess the name of Christ, we everywhere both embrace and teach it. And if you also read these words in a hostile spirit, ye can do no more, as I said before, than kill us; which indeed does no harm to us, but to you and all who unjustly hate us, and do not repent, brings eternal punishment by tire.

Not only are the phrases in the wrong order, they are used in different ways. Furthermore, "the word" is used so often in the NT (over 140 times) that any "allusion" would be unable to be specified, and harks to no particular advantage for Mark 16:20; while "went forth and preached" is also found in Mark 1:45 and 6:12 (and are also in reverse order in 1:38). Both words, however, are used so often and describe such a pertinent aspect of Christianity (preaching and missionary work, with "every where" a common statement of location, in the works of Luke) that it's as helpful to suggest an allusion in words like "the" and "God" and "Christ".

Around 177 AD, it is said that "Irenaeus quotes Mark 16:19 outright". This is accurate -- though I leave open to question whether this was added by Irey or one of his students -- as is a claim that Mark 16:9-20 was included in the Diatesseron of Tatian, usually dated around 175 AD (though again, this is just as well a late addition; or if Mark 16:9-20 were created around 150, as many scholars aver, it makes no difference). However, this evidence is equivocal as it is also to this time that our earliest external evidence is dated, according to the earliest I have seen it reckoned. It remains that there is no solid allusional evidence for this passage prior to the dates of the earliest manuscripts.
In terms of internal evidence, Egomanion offers the extremely naive argument that the parallels in Luke 10:19 and Acts 14:3 support M16's originality. It does no such thing; it merely suggests cites from which some of M16 was cobbled together, taken from their original context (though not always in violation of it).

Now let us look at arguments presented from three witnesses cited by Egomanion:

Bruce Terry -- Shockingly for a professor of Bible and Humanities, Terry waves off the external evidence in one sentence: "The question of authorship of verses 9 through 20 of the last chapter of Mark cannot be decided on the basis of textual evidence, since they are omitted by some good manuscripts and included by other good ones." That is all he has to say on the subject! Such a line would have Bruce Metzger doing the boogie woogie on Terry's head with a croquet mallet. Instead Terry argues that authenticity "must be determined, if possible, on the basis of style". In light of the argument by the textual specialist Yule -- whose work we have noted in our work on the Pastorals -- that at least a 10,000 word sample is required to make stylistic determinations, and that M16 falls about 9900 words short of this, Terry's arguments are an exercise in despair.
That said, what of the arguments from above Terry does address? Terry does admit that the "transition between verses 8 and 9 does seem awkward" and that an "exact parallel containing all the features of this juncture cannot be found elsewhere in Mark". However, he says that "the various features may be found in different transitions between sections in Mark." This is an illicit move by Terry. By such means one may argue away any unique feature, by paring it down into the lowest common denominator. It is by such means that critics "find" parallels between Jesus and various "copycat" saviors.

Terry answers the point about Mary Mag's description by arguing that "this is not, strictly speaking, an identifying phrase; it is rather a type of flashback that gives additional information about Mary Magdalene. This same type of flashback is found at least four times elsewhere in Mark." There is a vast difference, however, between this mention and the others: by M16, Mary Mag had been mentioned three times. The only example Terry gives from Mark that comes close to this is Mark 3:16, where "Simon was surnamed Peter by Jesus, although Simon had been mentioned several times previously. We know this is a flashback because John 1:42 tells us it happened when Simon Peter first met Jesus." The "several" is actually just three, and Mark 3:16 is part of a list of the apostles that gives such information about ALL of them as required (i.e., James and John being called Boanerges). There is no such categorical restriction with respect to Mary Mag. Terry's other two examples are both within the same Markan pericope and do not parallel the issue with respect to M16.

Terry next notes, "The fourth objection to the juncture between this last section of Mark and the previous one is that the use of anastas de ('Now rising') and the position of proton ('first') in verse 9 are ill-suited in a continuation of verses 1-8, even though they would be appropriate at the beginning of a comprehensive narrative. It is only necessary to point out that verse 9 is not a continuation of the section found in verse 1-8; it is the start of a new one." So it is. And this points directly to a later interpolation. Terry has not answered this objection; he has just put a spin on it that proves our point!

Terry considers the "most serious objection with regard to juncture" to be the ending of verse 8 ends with the conjunction gar ("for"). We will not pursue this line as there are some arguments, and perhaps one actual parallel, to such an ending in classical literature; the argument is therefore indecisive.

Terry next addresses arguments based on vocabulary. He summarizes:

(1) sixteen words used in this section are not used elsewhere in the Gospel of Mark; (2) three of these words are used more than once in this section; and (3) this section does not contain some of Mark's favorite words: eutheos or euthus (both meaning "immediately") and palin ("again").
The main objection to the Markan authorship of these verses based on vocabulary is that sixteen words used in this section are not used elsewhere in the Gospel of Mark. The sixteen words are: poreuomai ("go," three times, vv. 10, 12, 15), pentheo ("mourn," v. 10), theaomai ("see," twice, vv. 11, 14), apisteo ("not believe, disbelieve," twice, vv. 11, 16), heteros ("another, different," v. 12), morphe ("form," v. 12), husteron ("afterward," v. 14), endeka ("eleven," v. 14), parakoloutheo ("follow, accompany," v. 17), ophis ("serpent, snake," v. 18), thanasimos ("deadly," v. 18), blapto ("hurt, harm," v. 18), analambano ("receive up, take up," v. 19), sunergeo ("work with," v. 20), bebaioo ("confirm," v. 20), and epakoloutheo ("follow, attend," v. 10).
A few of these words -- ophis, morphe, endeka -- are fairly words we would expect to be unique as Mark would hardly have use for them anywhere else. Terry also notes that about 6-7 of these words have words using the same roots elsewhere in Mark. This cuts down the amount by about half, which does still leave this as supporting evidence to the decisive external evidence. Terry's reply beyond this is methodologically sound but in principle somewhat flawed. He notes that between Mark 15:40 and 16:4, one may also find 20-22 words that are used nowhere else in Mark; however, he includes in his list two proper names! Terry does well to point out that unique words may be used only because a situation warrants it. However, in his list of words from 15:40-16:4 only two or three are not for unique situations, which still, comparatively for M16, is below par. Indeed in a chart comparing number of words used only once, M16 ties for third, behind Mark 15 -- the chapter on the unique event of the crucifixion -- and Mark 7 -- a chapter that includes a list of sins, several geographic references, and an Aramaic word. Chapter 13 is Mark's little apocalypse and ties with M16 in terms of ratio. Given the "specialty" nature of these three chapters, if anything the inauthenticity of the more mundane M16 (in terms of subject) is highlighted. At best Terry has only made the case from this point less persuasive, but not eliminated it. Mere ratios will not tell us enough here. Indeed, one may go on (as Terry does) to divide down by any method and achieve any variety of ratios, whether dividing by chapter, sentence, or pericope, which makes the comparison system practically worthless.

Terry's next arguments have to do with phraseology, and none of the arguments he answers are those we specifically endorse. In short, Terry puts a dent of thought in the Volkswagen of the internal evidence arguments, but this will do no good when the 18 wheeler of external evidence is bearing down on him.

Warren Gage -- actually a professor of Old Testament at Knox Seminary, Gage offers "two lines of literary analysis that offer the promise of a textual reconstruction largely freed from the textual critic's heavy dependence on the manuscript evidence" -- which is rather like speaking of "lines of cooking that offer the promise of a recipe largely freed from the chef's heavy dependence on food." In short, like Terry, Gage waves away the hard data with a sniffle and does not even deal with it. Gage's argument begins with a proposition that if M16 is included, we are able to detect several patterns of chaismus in Mark as a whole, which is broken often if M16 is excluded. Those who get too "happy" about this, however, might consider that such structures are also routinely detected in the Book of Mormon by LDS apologists. Some of Gage's contact points moreover are rather so generalized as to be questionable ("of Power", "of God" for example). A later attempt to "repair" the ending of Mark is just as apt to be based on recognition of just such a pattern by a later writer -- and this is one reason why internal evidence takes a back seat to external evidence.

Gage also argues that M16 fulfills an "Elijah" theme prominent in Mark, but even if true -- which we see no need to dispute -- the only part of M16 he finds that fits this is Jesus' ascension, which is again something that would historically be included regardless of the authenticity of M16.

Robert Cramer -- Egomanion's last witness, as it happens, doesn't even support his view but agrees with mine!

So what has Egomanion done? He has produced one witness who agrees with me, and two who don't even deal with that 18 wheeler of external textual evidence. In short, he has once again failed in his quest.

See Skeptic X waste his time (why??) battering his head against this article here.

Figures that Holding is a great apologete against suspicion about Marks "lost" ending.
He is seen as ridiculous even by his fellow evangelicals. For that reason, to better distinguish themselves from him, he was named as an (evangelical) chess pawn:

The Black Horse

Mark wrote the earliest gospel and the christian method of placing Matthew before him is an obvious smoke and mirrors to make seem the missing end less suspicious.

[TRANSPONDER]

It sorta unsettles me when there are so many threads pop up and I stay out, especially when such a lot of work and scholarship goes into them. But I have to choose my battles. I do not care what the Quran says about Joseph (Swat and Pub) and I am unimpressed by consensus Authority claims about Mark, the Gospels or indeed the NT at large.

Standing on the shoulders of others, I can see a bit further and it is this: There was a real Jesus, I'm sure. But he was nothing like Gospel Jesus. He never spoke sany of the admonitions or exhortations in the gospels. They reflect Christian views and you may take that to the bank. Those views were developed by Greco - Roman Christians taking the Pauline anti - Judaism ball and running with it all the way to anti - Judaism. The original of the Synoptic gospels appeared after the Jewish war (I theorize) because it is full of references to the destruction of the land and Temple and I do not believe in prophecy, but I do believe in retrospective history. This contained all the common elements of the synoptics but NOT- NOT ...the differences and contradictions. Not the Nativities, which differ and Mark doesn't have one; not the resurrections, which contradict and Mark doesn't have one. Not the Sermon material which is used differently in Luke and Matthew and Mark doesn't have it.

Nor the 2nd feeding of 4,000, the Syrio - phoenecian woman or indeed the cursing of the fig - tree, because Luke doesn't have it and it is pushing the excuse of 'Luke didn't use it' to the extreme. It was added in Mark and Matthew and was NOT...Not... part of the original.

Conclusion, Mark was not the Synoptic original but was an edition of it, and that explains why Matthew and Luke do not have Zebedee's servants in the boat, Pilate's surprise, the extended account of the death of the baptist, or perhaps why Mark knows the name of the blind bar Timaeus but none of the others do.
Yes, I know they are independent eyewitness. No they ain't, they are editions of an original common text and where they differ, then something is generally altered or added in.

For sure, Mark is early which is why it doesn't have a nativity or indeed resurrection appearances. The demand wasn't there in his time. His end wasn't Lost. Indeed it rounds off quite nicely, though not logically and the Appearances were added later, independently and contradicting. There was NO original resurrection - story.

I know they all have an angel explaining everything, but John does not. Mary sees no angel and 'We' (they - the women) do not know what may have happened to the body. That was the original story, and an angel was posted there to tell everyone what they were supposed to believe. That was the synoptic original but the appearances were not.

Apart from the 'Truth being important' why does it matter so much whether Mark was the original or was itself an edition?

Because Luke often represents the Synoptic original in being simpler in some respects - only one feeding of 5,000, No Syrio - Phoenecian woman. I will bet my wife's pension that Luke would not have left that out if it was in the original. And no walking on water. Yes folks. That was NOT original material but added in.

I know - it is so shocking - not just that none of these vaunted experts has noticed it, but we all take that as a basic part of the story, but it should be in Luke 9 45 but is not (1). Luke did not leave this stuff out as though it didn't matter. It was not there in the original version.

Yes, despite Luke's very evident additions, elaborations and inventions, his gospel does reflect a simpler original version that Mark and Matthew do not use. But apart from that, Mark does indicate an early synoptic version that did not have resurrection appearances. The women ran away in fear and said nothing to anyone. That was all she wrote and anything else is not authorised.

So that's the hill I'm going to die on and the Other battles being fought like what theology is meant by 'My father has many mansions'.It's why I rarely bother with Theology. If one doesn't believe in the Greek gods there is no point (but fanfic) in debating what the doctrinal implications are of Zeus having Ganymede
hanging around with a paper towel to mop him off with. Whether it is true is all that matters, not what the implications are IF it is true.

So I have to pick where I pitch in with bayonettes fixed and trousers oiled. There are some subjects where I find posting time almost as much wasted effort as here.

(1) cue: "But it's in John - it must be gospel original!". Nope, there is another explanation - and evidence to support that.