' Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.'

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Matthew 7:20
'Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.'

Are Christian's easily recognizable?
Are they obligated to act as examples?
Are they dramatically inconspicuous?
Are they dismally failing, and if so. WHY?

[Mae von H]

Hello Mae von H

You say - "So it’s not likely you’ll understand how we know we are his."

Jesus said that others will be able to understand and that they will be drawn to a world within God. This is to happen through our example. If you can radiate God it becomes infectious.

Could you please give the quote from Jesus where he said others will look at you and understand? They looked at Him and did not understand. They looked at the apostles and did not understand. So I am wondering where you get this from Jesus.

The very least that you need to do this is confidence. A Buddhist teacher will not tell a person that their chance of sharing his 'enlightenment', is 'not likely'. That would make them a rationalist, or a fraud, or an incompetent guide, take your pick.

Since I do not give any credence to Buddism, you would have to ask a Buddist. Didn't Jesus actually say something like they have eyes but do not see? They have ears but do not hear, or something similar.

[Mae von H]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #33]

None of what you wrote in the above post matches reality. But it is impossible to explain a relationship with a Being and what that means to someone who does not know that experience. Relationships, what they require and give are powerful and beyond words. The outside of the matter for those who do not partake are just too different. The matter is too deep to understand sans experience. Thank you for the exchange.

I get how you think. The Believer is convinced that the funny feelings in their head and their imaginations represent reality, but there is good reason to think they are mistaken. Not least that other heads get the same funny feelings about different beliefs
It is what you write that doesn't really match reality, but you are misled into misinterpreting what the actual reality is. Or that's what I reckon the evidence indicates. Evidence that is of course ignored.

My goodness over 100 guests - a record. I suppose now Superbowl is over, everyone is catching up.

Incorrect. I have a relationship with the living God which is no more comprised of “funny feelings” than the relationship I have with my husband. What it is comprised of is outside of your are of experience.

I don't think you do. You have a relationship with an image in your own head as indeed you with the image of your partner in your head - you do not know what it is like to be Him. You hopefully do not suppose that you do.

You would be surprised at how often I put his feelings into words. The words of Billy Joel reflect his feelings, “I have to laugh when she reveals me.” This is the awesome blessings singles never know. What it is like to live with someone who truly understands you AND loves you. Words are insufficient to express the pleasure this brings. And there is no human relationship like it. Again, you have not experienced it and so imagine something that doesn’t fit real life. We’ve reached a stalemate.

But that is no more than how we interact with others and learn how they think.

Actually many people wished there was someone who understands them. You, yourself, claim you understand me but I can tell you that you are miles off from what I think and I AM the judge of that. So no, this is not how we all interact with each other with perfect understanding of each other.

It is how cold readers fool people into thinking they know their past and even thoughts. We do it by knowing friends, family and partners No doubt a partner can read their spouse as often as the spouse reads the partner.

It is easy to see that you are not married. We could take a survey asking married people how well their partner reads their thoughts and understands them. The results would not match your view. It is a common reason for divorce.

That said, the mental image of a god is not the same thing because, since there is (so I reckon) no being there to interact with the believer either either bases their 'readings' on their Holy Book and doctrines (which is why the god in our heads differ so much, unless codified by dogma) or they simply impose their own personality, wishes and beliefs on that god in the head. I know this because an opponent on a former board used to believe in Hell.Then he went for UR Universal redemption and no Hell. And the god he thought he was talking to endorsed that view, too.

"God hates the same things you do".

The difference is that you can see your husband in reality, you cannot see the God in your head anywhere else in reality.

A blind man cannot see their spouse either. Doesn’t mean they aren’t there. There are people who will tell you that they knew someone else was in the dark room although their eyes could not see them and their ears could not hear them. Nevertheless they knew they weren’t alone. This is common. Your view limits your ability to perceive reality.

And yours leads to self - delusion. First, the analogy you use is self -serving. (part of the "Skeptics denied powered flight" apologetic. We know that things are there and we even perceive color. So we know they are there, even if a blind person cannot see them. Just as we know there is cosmic background radiation though nobody can actually see it. That does not justify claims of ghosts, flying saucers and magical beings on the grounds that they are there even if we can't see them.

p.s I have an argument that analogy used as evidence is a fallacy, but I don't see that generally known, as yet.)

Your last analogy is the fallacy of appeal to unknowns. The Unknown is - unknown. It is not evidence of anything at all other than there are unknowns. The existence of the Andromeda nebula even if some uneducated person in a remote place has never heard of it does not validate claims of an elephant headed god, because they believe in it, pray to it and even feel its' influence, though of course they have never seen it except in their imagination.

I do not see any way that I can accurately communicate to you the logical reasons why I know God is there. There are just too many assumptions on your part, that you think you understand and will not take correction where you err.

There is an interesting scene in the Bible that I am reminded of. God spoke audibly to a group of people. Many heard real words with their real ears. But some insisted that, no, it had merely thundered. That latter group had purposely made themselves deaf to what the others heard. In your view, you would say the others just imagined words. There would be no way on earth to show them that they were wrong and what is worse, the benefit those who heard the words received was totally missed by those who insisted it had only thundered. Just so i do not see how I can begin to enable you to understand me or my view. Despite you thinking this is how normal people interact, you fail miserably to understand me.

But I understand you completely. Of course you have to conclude my faith is mere feelings. What else can you tell yourself? Anything besides I am deluded requires an answer from you. I am not insulted or have any other feelings on the matter. We are not friends struggling to maintain a relationship. We are strangers interacting. But I do admit I have enjoyed coming to understand you. I think everyone is interesting if not downright fascinating. So I appreciate your patience and enduring the interaction.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #33]

None of what you wrote in the above post matches reality. But it is impossible to explain a relationship with a Being and what that means to someone who does not know that experience. Relationships, what they require and give are powerful and beyond words. The outside of the matter for those who do not partake are just too different. The matter is too deep to understand sans experience. Thank you for the exchange.

I get how you think. The Believer is convinced that the funny feelings in their head and their imaginations represent reality, but there is good reason to think they are mistaken. Not least that other heads get the same funny feelings about different beliefs
It is what you write that doesn't really match reality, but you are misled into misinterpreting what the actual reality is. Or that's what I reckon the evidence indicates. Evidence that is of course ignored.

My goodness over 100 guests - a record. I suppose now Superbowl is over, everyone is catching up.

Incorrect. I have a relationship with the living God which is no more comprised of “funny feelings” than the relationship I have with my husband. What it is comprised of is outside of your are of experience.

I don't think you do. You have a relationship with an image in your own head as indeed you with the image of your partner in your head - you do not know what it is like to be Him. You hopefully do not suppose that you do.

You would be surprised at how often I put his feelings into words. The words of Billy Joel reflect his feelings, “I have to laugh when she reveals me.” This is the awesome blessings singles never know. What it is like to live with someone who truly understands you AND loves you. Words are insufficient to express the pleasure this brings. And there is no human relationship like it. Again, you have not experienced it and so imagine something that doesn’t fit real life. We’ve reached a stalemate.

But that is no more than how we interact with others and learn how they think.

Actually many people wished there was someone who understands them. You, yourself, claim you understand me but I can tell you that you are miles off from what I think and I AM the judge of that. So no, this is not how we all interact with each other with perfect understanding of each other.

It is how cold readers fool people into thinking they know their past and even thoughts. We do it by knowing friends, family and partners No doubt a partner can read their spouse as often as the spouse reads the partner.

It is easy to see that you are not married. We could take a survey asking married people how well their partner reads their thoughts and understands them. The results would not match your view. It is a common reason for divorce.

That said, the mental image of a god is not the same thing because, since there is (so I reckon) no being there to interact with the believer either either bases their 'readings' on their Holy Book and doctrines (which is why the god in our heads differ so much, unless codified by dogma) or they simply impose their own personality, wishes and beliefs on that god in the head. I know this because an opponent on a former board used to believe in Hell.Then he went for UR Universal redemption and no Hell. And the god he thought he was talking to endorsed that view, too.

"God hates the same things you do".

The difference is that you can see your husband in reality, you cannot see the God in your head anywhere else in reality.

A blind man cannot see their spouse either. Doesn’t mean they aren’t there. There are people who will tell you that they knew someone else was in the dark room although their eyes could not see them and their ears could not hear them. Nevertheless they knew they weren’t alone. This is common. Your view limits your ability to perceive reality.

And yours leads to self - delusion. First, the analogy you use is self -serving. (part of the "Skeptics denied powered flight" apologetic. We know that things are there and we even perceive color. So we know they are there, even if a blind person cannot see them. Just as we know there is cosmic background radiation though nobody can actually see it. That does not justify claims of ghosts, flying saucers and magical beings on the grounds that they are there even if we can't see them.

p.s I have an argument that analogy used as evidence is a fallacy, but I don't see that generally known, as yet.)

Your last analogy is the fallacy of appeal to unknowns. The Unknown is - unknown. It is not evidence of anything at all other than there are unknowns. The existence of the Andromeda nebula even if some uneducated person in a remote place has never heard of it does not validate claims of an elephant headed god, because they believe in it, pray to it and even feel its' influence, though of course they have never seen it except in their imagination.

I do not see any way that I can accurately communicate to you the logical reasons why I know God is there. There are just too many assumptions on your part, that you think you understand and will not take correction where you err.

There is an interesting scene in the Bible that I am reminded of. God spoke audibly to a group of people. Many heard real words with their real ears. But some insisted that, no, it had merely thundered. That latter group had purposely made themselves deaf to what the others heard. In your view, you would say the others just imagined words. There would be no way on earth to show them that they were wrong and what is worse, the benefit those who heard the words received was totally missed by those who insisted it had only thundered. Just so i do not see how I can begin to enable you to understand me or my view. Despite you thinking this is how normal people interact, you fail miserably to understand me.

But I understand you completely. Of course you have to conclude my faith is mere feelings. What else can you tell yourself? Anything besides I am deluded requires an answer from you. I am not insulted or have any other feelings on the matter. We are not friends struggling to maintain a relationship. We are strangers interacting. But I do admit I have enjoyed coming to understand you. I think everyone is interesting if not downright fascinating. So I appreciate your patience and enduring the interaction.

I also see no way i can penetrate the mental shell of denial that the stuff going around in your head is neither a god doing it or in any way comparable to it. I see clearly (deny it if you like) that you think that dismissing everything I say hands you the win. It doesn't, as you have offered no evidence but denial. I at least have an alternative explanation.

Your miserable explanation of a tall tale in the Bible that means absolutely nothing is hardly less miserable than your insistence that you understand your own beliefs that God is in their head, and not just their own heads. You see, I have a 'god' in my head too, just as we all do, but I know it's just me. You know nothing outside your own beliefs, but I have seen people explain what is in their heads, so don't tell me what i know and what i don't.

Your denial is compounded by dismissal of what I theorise as even a possible alternative, but dismissal of my case, not only as wrong but biased, as though the bias didn't work on both sides. Insults are not the case either way; supposing bias is a matter for discussion; it works both ways. What matters is which one is using it to dismiss the other claim as even a hypothesis? You are.

And using the ..let's replace 'miserable' with 'laughable' claim that the patient knows better than the doctor, the person who was there knows better than the researcher who wasn't (1). The person who Experienced Something knows better than someone who can explain what really happened. I know that the god in the head is just you, your feelings, opinions and preferences, and you are lacking in knowledge logic and objectivity if you fail to accept that, even when i explain it.
You still can save your credibility, but i predict that you will deny everything because i have seen it so many, many times before.

I know - as I said before, how you people think.

P s. you forget - I used to be married and continued to be even after she went home permanently and technically we still are. I understood her better than she would admit (and friends saw it too). That said, I see no point in trying to use your marriage or mine as proving anything and benefits in not dragging either relationship into it.

(1) reminds me of an example of what I dubbed 'wood for trees apologetic' with the 'dam -busters analogy. Because of a docu. where a dam -buster pilot who got shirty with anyone who said the raid was only of propaganda value on the grounds of "I was there - they weren't" went on a research tour (kudos that he even agreed) and came in the end to understand the researchers knew better than he did.

[Masterblaster]

Hello

Matthew 5:14 “Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in Heaven."

That is question 2 answered, at least.
What do you think?

Hello Mae von H

Will that do?....it was Post 2 on my thread here.
You asked - "Could you please give the quote from Jesus where he said others will look at you and understand? They looked at Him and did not understand."

Do you understand Jesus, Mae von H?
Are you sure you do?
Thanks

[Mae von H]

Hello

Matthew 5:14 “Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in Heaven."

That is question 2 answered, at least.
What do you think?

Hello MB

You will see that the result is not understanding. No one in that scripture came to knowledge or understanding from any good works people did. Instead the results were that people (some) would be glad someone on earth is doing moral good and praise God there are such.

Hello Mae von H

Will that do?....it was Post 2 on my thread here.
You asked - "Could you please give the quote from Jesus where he said others will look at you and understand? They looked at Him and did not understand."

Do you understand Jesus, Mae von H?
Are you sure you do?
Thanks

When someone asks me that question, it begs the question as to whether they can discern a believer from an unbeliever. Anyone can answer “yes” to your question so does it make it so?

With observation or in this case reading, I find it not at all difficult to learn the position or thinking of others. So this question I don’t ask cause it seems pointless to me and unnecessary. People who don’t know Jesus easily say they do. How does this help? People who do, like me, wonder how others cannot tell the difference. I find the difference is night and day. Once people start talking, they cannot help but reveal what they believe.

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello

Matthew 5:14 “Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in Heaven."

That is question 2 answered, at least.
What do you think?

Hello MB

You will see that the result is not understanding. No one in that scripture came to knowledge or understanding from any good works people did. Instead the results were that people (some) would be glad someone on earth is doing moral good and praise God there are such.

Hello Mae von H

Will that do?....it was Post 2 on my thread here.
You asked - "Could you please give the quote from Jesus where he said others will look at you and understand? They looked at Him and did not understand."

Do you understand Jesus, Mae von H?
Are you sure you do?
Thanks

When someone asks me that question, it begs the question as to whether they can discern a believer from an unbeliever. Anyone can answer “yes” to your question so does it make it so?

With observation or in this case reading, I find it not at all difficult to learn the position or thinking of others. So this question I don’t ask cause it seems pointless to me and unnecessary. People who don’t know Jesus easily say they do. How does this help? People who do, like me, wonder how others cannot tell the difference. I find the difference is night and day. Once people start talking, they cannot help but reveal what they believe.

How interesting. Were we not recently talking (probably on another thread) about understanding another person simply by what they say and how they act and does not mean one has to be in their minds or they in yours? The point being that partners (and even friends) come to understand one another and know how they will think, react and talk.

This does not in any way mean the voice in your head is God, any more than it is your partner's or indeed anyone posting on the forum. It is your voice in your own head. I shall bear this in mind iof and when I come across the thread.

[Mae von H]

Hello

Matthew 5:14 “Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in Heaven."

That is question 2 answered, at least.
What do you think?

Hello MB

You will see that the result is not understanding. No one in that scripture came to knowledge or understanding from any good works people did. Instead the results were that people (some) would be glad someone on earth is doing moral good and praise God there are such.

Hello Mae von H

Will that do?....it was Post 2 on my thread here.
You asked - "Could you please give the quote from Jesus where he said others will look at you and understand? They looked at Him and did not understand."

Do you understand Jesus, Mae von H?
Are you sure you do?
Thanks

When someone asks me that question, it begs the question as to whether they can discern a believer from an unbeliever. Anyone can answer “yes” to your question so does it make it so?

With observation or in this case reading, I find it not at all difficult to learn the position or thinking of others. So this question I don’t ask cause it seems pointless to me and unnecessary. People who don’t know Jesus easily say they do. How does this help? People who do, like me, wonder how others cannot tell the difference. I find the difference is night and day. Once people start talking, they cannot help but reveal what they believe.

How interesting. Were we not recently talking (probably on another thread) about understanding another person simply by what they say and how they act and does not mean one has to be in their minds or they in yours? The point being that partners (and even friends) come to understand one another and know how they will think, react and talk.

This does not in any way mean the voice in your head is God, any more than it is your partner's or indeed anyone posting on the forum. It is your voice in your own head. I shall bear this in mind iof and when I come across the thread.

Your ability to be astute comes through again. My compliments! The point is SOME come to understand others accurately and some do not. Your statement above assumes it is automatic. It is most certainly not. The statement that is frequently repeated, "why does he/she do that?" proves that understanding the motives and character of others is anything but automatic. That people get scammed and fooled and believe lies is solid proof that most do not, in fact, understand others.

The some who do are less frequent that the some who do not. You, for example, continually describe my position inaccurately and I am the judge as to whether you hit the nail on the head or not. I could give you reams of examples where the voice of God gave me direction I could not know and was not from my head or anything in me. I was never in the situation where my l life was saved by obeying it, but I know of others who have had this. But you insist we make it up and I know any evidence I share that this most definately is not the case is just "experience" and to be ignored. As a scientist I find this very limiting for you. A lot of learning is closed to the man who refuses to learn from other's experiences.

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello

Matthew 5:14 “Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in Heaven."

That is question 2 answered, at least.
What do you think?

Hello MB

You will see that the result is not understanding. No one in that scripture came to knowledge or understanding from any good works people did. Instead the results were that people (some) would be glad someone on earth is doing moral good and praise God there are such.

Hello Mae von H

Will that do?....it was Post 2 on my thread here.
You asked - "Could you please give the quote from Jesus where he said others will look at you and understand? They looked at Him and did not understand."

Do you understand Jesus, Mae von H?
Are you sure you do?
Thanks

When someone asks me that question, it begs the question as to whether they can discern a believer from an unbeliever. Anyone can answer “yes” to your question so does it make it so?

With observation or in this case reading, I find it not at all difficult to learn the position or thinking of others. So this question I don’t ask cause it seems pointless to me and unnecessary. People who don’t know Jesus easily say they do. How does this help? People who do, like me, wonder how others cannot tell the difference. I find the difference is night and day. Once people start talking, they cannot help but reveal what they believe.

How interesting. Were we not recently talking (probably on another thread) about understanding another person simply by what they say and how they act and does not mean one has to be in their minds or they in yours? The point being that partners (and even friends) come to understand one another and know how they will think, react and talk.

This does not in any way mean the voice in your head is God, any more than it is your partner's or indeed anyone posting on the forum. It is your voice in your own head. I shall bear this in mind iof and when I come across the thread.

Your ability to be astute comes through again. My compliments! The point is SOME come to understand others accurately and some do not. Your statement above assumes it is automatic. It is most certainly not. The statement that is frequently repeated, "why does he/she do that?" proves that understanding the motives and character of others is anything but automatic. That people get scammed and fooled and believe lies is solid proof that most do not, in fact, understand others.

The some who do are less frequent that the some who do not. You, for example, continually describe my position inaccurately and I am the judge as to whether you hit the nail on the head or not. I could give you reams of examples where the voice of God gave me direction I could not know and was not from my head or anything in me. I was never in the situation where my l life was saved by obeying it, but I know of others who have had this. But you insist we make it up and I know any evidence I share that this most definately is not the case is just "experience" and to be ignored. As a scientist I find this very limiting for you. A lot of learning is closed to the man who refuses to learn from other's experiences.

The point is that you Think you have some mental contact with your partner as you do with God, but My point is that this can also be that we (or some of us) can understand friends, partners and family by associating with them, and there is no reason to suppose the voice in your head is mental contact with them any more than with a god. In fact how could it be both? But it could just be you.

Also as I said, I have seen someone's God speaking in their head change their mind about Hellthreat just as the poster did. I know that the voice in my head is me, and the poster showed me the voice in his head was him.

That we can learn about those we interact with does not mean that we have a mental contact with them any more than it means we have mental contact with God. We are talking about our own minds here, and about nothing else.

Just clarifying that, should I come across that other thread, if it wasn't this one.

[Mae von H]

Hello

Matthew 5:14 “Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in Heaven."

That is question 2 answered, at least.
What do you think?

Hello MB

You will see that the result is not understanding. No one in that scripture came to knowledge or understanding from any good works people did. Instead the results were that people (some) would be glad someone on earth is doing moral good and praise God there are such.

Hello Mae von H

Will that do?....it was Post 2 on my thread here.
You asked - "Could you please give the quote from Jesus where he said others will look at you and understand? They looked at Him and did not understand."

Do you understand Jesus, Mae von H?
Are you sure you do?
Thanks

When someone asks me that question, it begs the question as to whether they can discern a believer from an unbeliever. Anyone can answer “yes” to your question so does it make it so?

With observation or in this case reading, I find it not at all difficult to learn the position or thinking of others. So this question I don’t ask cause it seems pointless to me and unnecessary. People who don’t know Jesus easily say they do. How does this help? People who do, like me, wonder how others cannot tell the difference. I find the difference is night and day. Once people start talking, they cannot help but reveal what they believe.

How interesting. Were we not recently talking (probably on another thread) about understanding another person simply by what they say and how they act and does not mean one has to be in their minds or they in yours? The point being that partners (and even friends) come to understand one another and know how they will think, react and talk.

This does not in any way mean the voice in your head is God, any more than it is your partner's or indeed anyone posting on the forum. It is your voice in your own head. I shall bear this in mind iof and when I come across the thread.

Your ability to be astute comes through again. My compliments! The point is SOME come to understand others accurately and some do not. Your statement above assumes it is automatic. It is most certainly not. The statement that is frequently repeated, "why does he/she do that?" proves that understanding the motives and character of others is anything but automatic. That people get scammed and fooled and believe lies is solid proof that most do not, in fact, understand others.

The some who do are less frequent that the some who do not. You, for example, continually describe my position inaccurately and I am the judge as to whether you hit the nail on the head or not. I could give you reams of examples where the voice of God gave me direction I could not know and was not from my head or anything in me. I was never in the situation where my l life was saved by obeying it, but I know of others who have had this. But you insist we make it up and I know any evidence I share that this most definately is not the case is just "experience" and to be ignored. As a scientist I find this very limiting for you. A lot of learning is closed to the man who refuses to learn from other's experiences.

The point is that you Think you have some mental contact with your partner as you do with God, but My point is that this can also be that we (or some of us) can understand friends, partners and family by associating with them, and there is no reason to suppose the voice in your head is mental contact with them any more than with a god. In fact how could it be both? But it could just be you.

My partner also thinks I have some mental contact with him. This is quite different than my contact with God. They are not related, not even close. I you want to understand what this is like, I can give you one experience you have that is pretty close and that is, does you conscience ever bother you about your behaviour that was to your advantage but not right?

Also as I said, I have seen someone's God speaking in their head change their mind about Hellthreat just as the poster did. I know that the voice in my head is me, and the poster showed me the voice in his head was him.

That we can learn about those we interact with does not mean that we have a mental contact with them any more than it means we have mental contact with God. We are talking about our own minds here, and about nothing else.

Just clarifying that, should I come across that other thread, if it wasn't this one.

How do you see someone's God speaking in their head? What does this look like? And what is "Hellthreat?" Is that a game of some sort? How do you see speaking in any case without seeing the mouth speaking?

Do you think your conscience is your own mind? If so, how come it usually tells us something we did or said that was clearly for our benefit or profit was wrong? The mind has its benefit as its primary goal but the conscience usually bugs us on matters that are or were NOT for our benefit. How can this be us talking to us and why do we feel the need to defend our choice for our benefit against our own self? Perhaps this is a new thread?

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello

Matthew 5:14 “Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick, and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in Heaven."

That is question 2 answered, at least.
What do you think?

Hello MB

You will see that the result is not understanding. No one in that scripture came to knowledge or understanding from any good works people did. Instead the results were that people (some) would be glad someone on earth is doing moral good and praise God there are such.

Hello Mae von H

Will that do?....it was Post 2 on my thread here.
You asked - "Could you please give the quote from Jesus where he said others will look at you and understand? They looked at Him and did not understand."

Do you understand Jesus, Mae von H?
Are you sure you do?
Thanks

When someone asks me that question, it begs the question as to whether they can discern a believer from an unbeliever. Anyone can answer “yes” to your question so does it make it so?

With observation or in this case reading, I find it not at all difficult to learn the position or thinking of others. So this question I don’t ask cause it seems pointless to me and unnecessary. People who don’t know Jesus easily say they do. How does this help? People who do, like me, wonder how others cannot tell the difference. I find the difference is night and day. Once people start talking, they cannot help but reveal what they believe.

How interesting. Were we not recently talking (probably on another thread) about understanding another person simply by what they say and how they act and does not mean one has to be in their minds or they in yours? The point being that partners (and even friends) come to understand one another and know how they will think, react and talk.

This does not in any way mean the voice in your head is God, any more than it is your partner's or indeed anyone posting on the forum. It is your voice in your own head. I shall bear this in mind iof and when I come across the thread.

Your ability to be astute comes through again. My compliments! The point is SOME come to understand others accurately and some do not. Your statement above assumes it is automatic. It is most certainly not. The statement that is frequently repeated, "why does he/she do that?" proves that understanding the motives and character of others is anything but automatic. That people get scammed and fooled and believe lies is solid proof that most do not, in fact, understand others.

The some who do are less frequent that the some who do not. You, for example, continually describe my position inaccurately and I am the judge as to whether you hit the nail on the head or not. I could give you reams of examples where the voice of God gave me direction I could not know and was not from my head or anything in me. I was never in the situation where my l life was saved by obeying it, but I know of others who have had this. But you insist we make it up and I know any evidence I share that this most definately is not the case is just "experience" and to be ignored. As a scientist I find this very limiting for you. A lot of learning is closed to the man who refuses to learn from other's experiences.

The point is that you Think you have some mental contact with your partner as you do with God, but My point is that this can also be that we (or some of us) can understand friends, partners and family by associating with them, and there is no reason to suppose the voice in your head is mental contact with them any more than with a god. In fact how could it be both? But it could just be you.

My partner also thinks I have some mental contact with him. This is quite different than my contact with God. They are not related, not even close. I you want to understand what this is like, I can give you one experience you have that is pretty close and that is, does you conscience ever bother you about your behaviour that was to your advantage but not right?

Also as I said, I have seen someone's God speaking in their head change their mind about Hellthreat just as the poster did. I know that the voice in my head is me, and the poster showed me the voice in his head was him.

That we can learn about those we interact with does not mean that we have a mental contact with them any more than it means we have mental contact with God. We are talking about our own minds here, and about nothing else.

Just clarifying that, should I come across that other thread, if it wasn't this one.

How do you see someone's God speaking in their head? What does this look like? And what is "Hellthreat?" Is that a game of some sort? How do you see speaking in any case without seeing the mouth speaking?

Do you think your conscience is your own mind? If so, how come it usually tells us something we did or said that was clearly for our benefit or profit was wrong? The mind has its benefit as its primary goal but the conscience usually bugs us on matters that are or were NOT for our benefit. How can this be us talking to us and why do we feel the need to defend our choice for our benefit against our own self? Perhaps this is a new thread?

You know the answer to that. The process in your head that you think is personal communication with God (and apparently with your husband) is what it is.

From what I have heard from deconverts and my own experience of hearing my own mind talking things through and debating with me, AND the point I have about a believer's god in his head changing his mind about Hellthreat at the same time, I'd like to know why that is not good explanation of this delusion believers have that God is masterminding their Truth (even when it's provably wrong).

It answers a lot of points, like why Bible apologists think they are right even when they are clearly wrong. I know it's denial but it is more than that - they cannot admit that God is not putting Truth into their heads. In fact that is all the points - Faith means they are right even when provably wrong.

What more did you have? Hellthreat? If you don't know what that is you have come to the debate half ready. Conscience - irrelevant. That is rules - like we have in chess or ..I suppose there are other games with rules.. We keep them in mind and they pop up when we know we have infringed them. It is nothing to do with a god in our head, though it might be our wife, who has changed the Rules again this week.