Was Jesus just a moral Teacher, and nothing more?

[BigChrisfilm]

"I am trying here to prevent anyone from saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him [Jesus Christ]: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on a level with a man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse .... You can shut him up for fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon; or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that option open to us. He did not intend to.” - C.S. Lewis

[1213]

... what do you think that he did in the Great Temple during that day?

I know only what is said in the Bible. I recommend to read it, if you want to know what Jesus did.

[oldbadger]

... what do you think that he did in the Great Temple during that day?

I know only what is said in the Bible. I recommend to read it, if you want to know what Jesus did.

So you don't know as much about what Jesus said and did as you make out.
OK...... I'm used to cop outs.

[LittleNipper]

...John 8:58, where JESUS declares to the Jewish religious leaders, “Before Abraham was born, I AM!” Here, JESUS assumes the name GOD had assigned HIMSELF in Exodus 3:14, “I AM who I AM. This what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.” The Jewish religious leaders understood that JESUS was claiming to be GOD, and it is evidenced by the fact that they attempted to stone HIM to death for “blasphemy.”

Interestingly, in OT, Moses is also called God:

Yahweh said to Moses, “Behold, I have made you as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
Exod. 7:1

“Behold, I have made you as God to Pharaoh... "

It's a case where I'd be happy to Interpret a bit, the context being that Moses is of course a man, but is given God's powers, so as to manipulate Pharaoh...according the story, which I do not really credit. But I'll look at the context, of course.

I can't help thinking back to a discussion I had on my Other forum where it was suggested that Jesus giving his New Laws on a mountain (and other clues) showed that Matthew at least saw Jesus as the New Moses, giving the New Law to supplant...(call it "Fulfil") the old, which is the whole Pauline message.

Yes well, the context is clear. Moses does not become a god, but merely transmits his messages, and is given power (like Jesus) to work miracles.

Show me where Moses died for the sins of the world and where he referred to himself as "I AM." Show me where CHRIST did anything that displeased the FATHER and was imperfect.

[oldbadger]

Show me where Moses died for the sins of the world and where he referred to himself as "I AM." Show me where CHRIST did anything that displeased the FATHER and was imperfect.

Changing all God's laws, even the poor laws or the really useful ones such as the safety and health laws....?
Surely God wouldn't have been pleased about that?

How about when Jesus told us that good friends come far before family and relatives? Actually I happen to believe that myself, but it doesn't look very 'Pauline' to me, somehow.

How about when he committed criminal damage and forced picketing all over the Temple Courts?

....and don't forget how Jesus spoke out for the destruction of God's lovely Temple?

God displeased? He surely would have been enraged, no?

[LittleNipper]

Show me where Moses died for the sins of the world and where he referred to himself as "I AM." Show me where CHRIST did anything that displeased the FATHER and was imperfect.

Changing all God's laws, even the poor laws or the really useful ones such as the safety and health laws....?
Surely God wouldn't have been pleased about that?

How about when Jesus told us that good friends come far before family and relatives? Actually I happen to believe that myself, but it doesn't look very 'Pauline' to me, somehow.

How about when he committed criminal damage and forced picketing all over the Temple Courts?

....and don't forget how Jesus spoke out for the destruction of God's lovely Temple?

God displeased? He surely would have been enraged, no?

The temple belonged to GOD, and HE wasn't happy the way things were being run. CHRIST and HIS FATHER are ONE. And JESUS wasn't placing friends above family, HE said they are one and the same. CHRIST fulfilled the LAW perfectly, and the ritual laws were no longer necessary. The Ten Commandments are still in place. Matthew 17:5 While HE was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is MY SON, whom I love; with HIM I am well pleased. Listen to HIM!” Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is MY SON, whom I love; with HIM I am well pleased.”

You need to read the entire Bible. You are missing much.

[TRANSPONDER]

Show me where Moses died for the sins of the world and where he referred to himself as "I AM." Show me where CHRIST did anything that displeased the FATHER and was imperfect.

Changing all God's laws, even the poor laws or the really useful ones such as the safety and health laws....?
Surely God wouldn't have been pleased about that?

How about when Jesus told us that good friends come far before family and relatives? Actually I happen to believe that myself, but it doesn't look very 'Pauline' to me, somehow.

How about when he committed criminal damage and forced picketing all over the Temple Courts?

....and don't forget how Jesus spoke out for the destruction of God's lovely Temple?

God displeased? He surely would have been enraged, no?

The temple belonged to GOD, and HE wasn't happy the way things were being run. CHRIST and HIS FATHER are ONE. And JESUS wasn't placing friends above family, HE said they are one and the same. CHRIST fulfilled the LAW perfectly, and the ritual laws were no longer necessary. The Ten Commandments are still in place. Matthew 17:5 While HE was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is MY SON, whom I love; with HIM I am well pleased. Listen to HIM!” Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is MY SON, whom I love; with HIM I am well pleased.”

You need to read the entire Bible. You are missing much.

You are the one who needs to read the bible, and to understand what it says. Jesus repeatedly junked the mosaic law, and replaced it with some vague new 'play nice' rules which made the old laws and rites obsolete.

'Fulfilled' is just a smother -word from 'make them obsolete'. The Sabbath was the first to go. It is astonishing that fo 2,000 years experts who memorised the bible missed (or ignored) this. They don't even try to the 'Sunday, not Saturday' excuse, because it would make people think too much.

It is knowing and dishonest suppression of what the Bible (inconveniently) says. But they can't fool me, nor with pretending that preferring the cult membership over the family only means 'love everybody'. Jesus does not love everybody - only those who join the cult, the rest can go the way of Chorazin.

[LittleNipper]

Show me where Moses died for the sins of the world and where he referred to himself as "I AM." Show me where CHRIST did anything that displeased the FATHER and was imperfect.

Changing all God's laws, even the poor laws or the really useful ones such as the safety and health laws....?
Surely God wouldn't have been pleased about that?

How about when Jesus told us that good friends come far before family and relatives? Actually I happen to believe that myself, but it doesn't look very 'Pauline' to me, somehow.

How about when he committed criminal damage and forced picketing all over the Temple Courts?

....and don't forget how Jesus spoke out for the destruction of God's lovely Temple?

God displeased? He surely would have been enraged, no?

The temple belonged to GOD, and HE wasn't happy the way things were being run. CHRIST and HIS FATHER are ONE. And JESUS wasn't placing friends above family, HE said they are one and the same. CHRIST fulfilled the LAW perfectly, and the ritual laws were no longer necessary. The Ten Commandments are still in place. Matthew 17:5 While HE was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is MY SON, whom I love; with HIM I am well pleased. Listen to HIM!” Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is MY SON, whom I love; with HIM I am well pleased.”

You need to read the entire Bible. You are missing much.

You are the one who needs to read the bible, and to understand what it says. Jesus repeatedly junked the mosaic law, and replaced it with some vague new 'play nice' rules which made the old laws and rites obsolete.

'Fulfilled' is just a smother -word from 'make them obsolete'. The Sabbath was the first to go. It is astonishing that fo 2,000 years experts who memorised the bible missed (or ignored) this. They don't even try to the 'Sunday, not Saturday' excuse, because it would make people think too much.

It is knowing and dishonest suppression of what the Bible (inconveniently) says. But they can't fool me, nor with pretending that preferring the cult membership over the family only means 'love everybody'. Jesus does not love everybody - only those who join the cult, the rest can go the way of Chorazin.

CHRIST arose on the first day of the week. Many Christians use Sunday to celebrate CHRIST's victory over death. Saturday is still the Sabbath day, but because of our freedom in CHRIST JESUS, we are no longer obliged to one particular day of the week; however, we are still encouraged to worship together as the body of CHRIST. As CHRISTIANS believers all become the temple of the HOLY SPIRIT. GOD no longer dwells in houses made by human hands. The SON of GOD has brought about the AGE of GRACE. This will end with the rapture of the CHURCH (the body of all believers). Then will come the 7 year GREAT TRIBULATION (also known as JACOB's TROUBLE).

[oldbadger]

The temple belonged to GOD, and HE wasn't happy the way things were being run.

If God wasn't happy about the place, he could have zapped it in a second, any time he chose.

CHRIST and HIS FATHER are ONE.

All Jewish people believed that God was their father, they were the children of their God. So any Jewish person could say that.

And JESUS wasn't placing friends above family, HE said they are one and the same.

No.....not the same.
Mark {3:32} And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. {3:33} And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? {3:34} And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! {3:35} For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

CHRIST fulfilled the LAW perfectly, and the ritual laws were no longer necessary. The Ten Commandments are still in place.

So he did NOT fulfill ALL the laws! How about sensible laws such as building a battlement around roofs for safety? Or the poor laws? There were 613 laws and you're telling me that only the ritual laws were discarded? THat leaves about 500 laws which Christianity has dumped, yes?
Look, one law that Jesus emphasised above all else was to discard wealth, riches and mammon, and just look at the churches and so many Christians...eh?

Matthew 17:5 While HE was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is MY SON, whom I love; with HIM I am well pleased. Listen to HIM!”

You think that Matthew was there? No.....he hadn't even taken Jesus to his home for food, by then. So that's heresay.
And as usual I see that your version has nice little edits popped in to it. My version reads:-
Matthew {3:17} And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased........... the last three words in your bible version are imposters, yes?

You need to read the entire Bible. You are missing much.

I don't think you are a referee about that.

[TRANSPONDER]

Show me where Moses died for the sins of the world and where he referred to himself as "I AM." Show me where CHRIST did anything that displeased the FATHER and was imperfect.

Changing all God's laws, even the poor laws or the really useful ones such as the safety and health laws....?
Surely God wouldn't have been pleased about that?

How about when Jesus told us that good friends come far before family and relatives? Actually I happen to believe that myself, but it doesn't look very 'Pauline' to me, somehow.

How about when he committed criminal damage and forced picketing all over the Temple Courts?

....and don't forget how Jesus spoke out for the destruction of God's lovely Temple?

God displeased? He surely would have been enraged, no?

The temple belonged to GOD, and HE wasn't happy the way things were being run. CHRIST and HIS FATHER are ONE. And JESUS wasn't placing friends above family, HE said they are one and the same. CHRIST fulfilled the LAW perfectly, and the ritual laws were no longer necessary. The Ten Commandments are still in place. Matthew 17:5 While HE was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is MY SON, whom I love; with HIM I am well pleased. Listen to HIM!” Matthew 3:17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is MY SON, whom I love; with HIM I am well pleased.”

You need to read the entire Bible. You are missing much.

You are the one who needs to read the bible, and to understand what it says. Jesus repeatedly junked the mosaic law, and replaced it with some vague new 'play nice' rules which made the old laws and rites obsolete.

'Fulfilled' is just a smother -word from 'make them obsolete'. The Sabbath was the first to go. It is astonishing that fo 2,000 years experts who memorised the bible missed (or ignored) this. They don't even try to the 'Sunday, not Saturday' excuse, because it would make people think too much.

It is knowing and dishonest suppression of what the Bible (inconveniently) says. But they can't fool me, nor with pretending that preferring the cult membership over the family only means 'love everybody'. Jesus does not love everybody - only those who join the cult, the rest can go the way of Chorazin.

CHRIST arose on the first day of the week. Many Christians use Sunday to celebrate CHRIST's victory over death. Saturday is still the Sabbath day, but because of our freedom in CHRIST JESUS, we are no longer obliged to one particular day of the week; however, we are still encouraged to worship together as the body of CHRIST. As CHRISTIANS believers all become the temple of the HOLY SPIRIT. GOD no longer dwells in houses made by human hands. The SON of GOD has brought about the AGE of GRACE. This will end with the rapture of the CHURCH (the body of all believers). Then will come the 7 year GREAT TRIBULATION (also known as JACOB's TROUBLE).

This is nothing but shouting Faithclaims. It is no kind of debate or descussion. I need hardly address the skipping over the shibolleth -requirement of the sabbath (Sunday worship) as some kind of spontaneous exp[ression of Fauth, not an imposed Dogma that Jesus in the synoptics, anyway, made a point to debunk, because it was Jewish law.

That is all I'm going say and a sight more than your preachy response deserved.

[LittleNipper]

The temple belonged to GOD, and HE wasn't happy the way things were being run.

If God wasn't happy about the place, he could have zapped it in a second, any time he chose.

CHRIST and HIS FATHER are ONE.

All Jewish people believed that God was their father, they were the children of their God. So any Jewish person could say that.

And JESUS wasn't placing friends above family, HE said they are one and the same.

No.....not the same.
Mark {3:32} And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. {3:33} And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? {3:34} And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! {3:35} For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

CHRIST fulfilled the LAW perfectly, and the ritual laws were no longer necessary. The Ten Commandments are still in place.

So he did NOT fulfill ALL the laws! How about sensible laws such as building a battlement around roofs for safety? Or the poor laws? There were 613 laws and you're telling me that only the ritual laws were discarded? THat leaves about 500 laws which Christianity has dumped, yes?
Look, one law that Jesus emphasised above all else was to discard wealth, riches and mammon, and just look at the churches and so many Christians...eh?

Matthew 17:5 While HE was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is MY SON, whom I love; with HIM I am well pleased. Listen to HIM!”

You think that Matthew was there? No.....he hadn't even taken Jesus to his home for food, by then. So that's heresay.
And as usual I see that your version has nice little edits popped in to it. My version reads:-
Matthew {3:17} And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased........... the last three words in your bible version are imposters, yes?

You need to read the entire Bible. You are missing much.

I don't think you are a referee about that.

I've never heard a non-messianic Jew ever say that he and the FATHER were ONE. They don't even like to say G-d. And JESUS condemned the Pharisees because of their hypocrisy.
Matthew 23
1
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3
So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
4
They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5
"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6
they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
7
they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
8
"But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9
And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10
Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
11
The greatest among you will be your servant.
12
For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16
"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17
You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18
You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19
You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20
Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21
And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22
And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24
You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26
Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28
In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30
And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31
So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32
Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34
Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35
And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36
I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38
Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39
For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'