God's Plan?

[POI]

For Debate: Why didn't God directly author the Bible himself? Why instead give his instruction(s) to fallible and sinful humans to write down his wishes to paper, which then makes it quite easy for skeptics to conclude that such writings were not from any higher power at all?

[Mae von H]

For Debate: Why didn't God directly author the Bible himself? Why instead give his instruction(s) to fallible and sinful humans to write down his wishes to paper, which then makes it quite easy for skeptics to conclude that such writings were not from any higher power at all?

Very good question. According to Him, His strength is made perfect in weakness. Second, the goal is family or relationship not religious duty. Third, people have the tendency to venerate things which is easily seen in all religions but Judaism and Christianity. If God delivered a book, men wouldn’t read it but would worship it. I’m convinced that this is why the Jews weren’t allowed to know where Moses was buried and why Satan wanted the body. But it’s just my opinion.

[Masterblaster]

Hello Mae von H

You say - "Very good question. According to Him, His strength is made perfect in weakness. Second, the goal is family or relationship not religious duty. Third, people have the tendency to venerate things which is easily seen in all religions but Judaism and Christianity. If God delivered a book, men wouldn’t read it but would worship it. I’m convinced that this is why the Jews weren’t allowed to know where Moses was buried and why Satan wanted the body. But it’s just my opinion."

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Your tone has improved, but the madness continues to run ,unabated!.I had to sit down after this and try to figure out how a rational ,intelligent person can wander into such dark glades.

MvH - "I’m convinced that this is why the Jews weren’t allowed to know where Moses was buried and why Satan wanted the body"

His strength is made perfect in weakness????
.. If God delivered a book, men wouldn’t read it but would worship it....????
the goal is family or relationship not religious duty???

In modern political discussion, all this is described as spreading disinformation and it is an offence. I find it baffling! Just my opinion!
Thanks

[POI]

For Debate: Why didn't God directly author the Bible himself? Why instead give his instruction(s) to fallible and sinful humans to write down his wishes to paper, which then makes it quite easy for skeptics to conclude that such writings were not from any higher power at all?

Very good question. According to Him, His strength is made perfect in weakness. Second, the goal is family or relationship not religious duty. Third, people have the tendency to venerate things which is easily seen in all religions but Judaism and Christianity. If God delivered a book, men wouldn’t read it but would worship it. I’m convinced that this is why the Jews weren’t allowed to know where Moses was buried and why Satan wanted the body. But it’s just my opinion.

Thank you for your response, but it does not really address my debate question in bold. God would have to realize that many would excuse this collection of books as just another collection of human inspired books, like any other religion you reject. God is okay with this? Seems he would want his presence known/proven. Many would still have the option to reject him, while still knowing he is real.

[POI]

My only conclusion is that if there is a god, it's not the one described in the Bible. Perhaps the real god pointed me this way. If so, I'm relieved. I would prefer a god with higher moral standards and logical reasoning than the one portrayed in the Bible. I would also prefer one that is crystal clear about any rules for living. Since my seeking led me to where I am, I can only conclude that if there is a god, it must be of the kind I would hope for. One that doesn't agree with slavery, rape, incest, and war. One that doesn't require mental gymnastics to explain away inconsistencies with observation and reality.

Perhaps this god had a hand in getting James 1:5 penned.

Nice response.... Just say'n....

[Mae von H]

For Debate: Why didn't God directly author the Bible himself? Why instead give his instruction(s) to fallible and sinful humans to write down his wishes to paper, which then makes it quite easy for skeptics to conclude that such writings were not from any higher power at all?

According to Christianity, God inspired the Bible. This means that He is the Author in that the final product is are the words He wanted to use.

Sounds like your argument is that humans were mere ghostwriters, and that God successfully conveyed all his wishes and commands exactly the way he wanted, without interference of any fallibility or sin? Is this your official position?

I cannot think of any way that God could have written a message to his people that a skeptic could not easily “conclude that such writings were not from any higher power at all.”

I can. It could have been constructed in a way humans could not have comprised themselves alone. Meaning, it could be made of some futuristic material, possess powers which defy the laws of physics, be physically indestructible, etc. It could also give information in which we could not have formulated all on our own, without the need for any higher knowledge at the time it was written. But it appears to possess none of those traits.

What’s interesting is that others have read the Bible and knew there is a God behind it. They saw something you don’t see.

I thanked you for this because you surmised correctly the fallacy of thinking the words are magical or that writers were essentially suffering from what I coin as “a seizure from above” and took dictation. Nothing could be farther from the truth. They were inspired, not controlled. The former is an extremely delightful experience, the latter horrible.

[Mae von H]

For Debate: Why didn't God directly author the Bible himself? Why instead give his instruction(s) to fallible and sinful humans to write down his wishes to paper, which then makes it quite easy for skeptics to conclude that such writings were not from any higher power at all?

Very good question. According to Him, His strength is made perfect in weakness. Second, the goal is family or relationship not religious duty. Third, people have the tendency to venerate things which is easily seen in all religions but Judaism and Christianity. If God delivered a book, men wouldn’t read it but would worship it. I’m convinced that this is why the Jews weren’t allowed to know where Moses was buried and why Satan wanted the body. But it’s just my opinion.

Thank you for your response, but it does not really address my debate question in bold. God would have to realize that many would excuse this collection of books as just another collection of human inspired books, like any other religion you reject. God is okay with this? Seems he would want his presence known/proven. Many would still have the option to reject him, while still knowing he is real.

Your debate question assumes facts not in evidence. These things contained in those writings were written such that men can read and believe. For this purpose they are sufficient as evidenced by the billions who have read these things, lived by them and come to know the truth. It is a fact. There are followers of Jesus the Christ literally all over the world.

So the fact that many would find any excuse to deny the inspiration of those works most likely because they do not want to do what is contained within them, is not to be avoided no matter what God did. You can read what T wrote of when he left Christianity. He felt a freedom. Of course he did. He was not longer restrained by the moral code of treating others as you would like to be treated. He was under no moral code at all. Can you see what it is preferable to deny the existence of the deity behind it and the coming judgement of the deeds of one's life after death? Can you see the freedom those who deny both feel? One can behave as badly as one wishes to anyone without any fear of consequences from God. Man might give consequences depending upon how powerful the perpetrator is, but without a Divine Judge, one feels free.

So God has made his presence known/proven to millions of people and really over time, billions. The atheists are a very tiny minority in human history and the rest of mankind, were they around to vote, would simply know they are ignorant...at least for now. That state will change. Of that we have no doubt.

[Mae von H]

For Debate: Why didn't God directly author the Bible himself? Why instead give his instruction(s) to fallible and sinful humans to write down his wishes to paper, which then makes it quite easy for skeptics to conclude that such writings were not from any higher power at all?

God has promised wisdom and Holy Spirit for everyone asking. So, if you have problems to understanding something, it is not because of the book.

But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach; and it will be given to him.
James 1:5

Guess what happened when I basically did this as a Christian? I was a devout Catholic (former protestant) and reading the Bible every day. Trying to become a better Christian. Praying for guidance and wisdom.

It led to finding all the problems we debate here. I guess it worked!!

My only conclusion is that if there is a god, it's not the one described in the Bible. Perhaps the real god pointed me this way. If so, I'm relieved. I would prefer a god with higher moral standards and logical reasoning than the one portrayed in the Bible. I would also prefer one that is crystal clear about any rules for living. Since my seeking led me to where I am, I can only conclude that if there is a god, it must be of the kind I would hope for. One that doesn't agree with slavery, rape, incest, and war. One that doesn't require mental gymnastics to explain away inconsistencies with observation and reality.

Perhaps this god had a hand in getting James 1:5 penned.

I always find the reasons why former believers left the faith very interesting. My question is always what went wrong. I listened at length to a former passionate believer's story about being raised in a christian home, got higher degrees in theology and preached etc. The ones I personally know, Dan Barker, for example, left not for intellectual reasons but the reasons Jesus said would cause people to leave the faith.

But you and the guy I listened to I do not know and cannot say regarding that. (No one who leaves says it was for the reasons Jesus said, btw.) I cannot speak to your background as I know too little. I do wonder why you think the rules for living contained in Jesus' teaching are not crystal clear. What can be more clear than, treat others as you would like to be treated? Seems to me "forgive those who do you wrong" cannot be more clear. Can you elaborate on this please? What is foggy about Jesus' teaching as to how to treat others?

The point about the guy I was listening to on a youtube program, I could not lay much blame on him but I do lay a great deal on modern Christianity or churchianity. The guy told about asking Jesus into his heart at a young age over and over because nothing happened. I am very sorry the church started teaching the no-where-in-the-Bible easy salvationism. I read "repent and believe" not ask poor homeless Jesus into you heart so he is not out in the cold gospel. I read of wanting Jesus to accept me, not me accepting Him. And the whole sin nature lie that permeates the christian mind that does not match real life....I can see why the man threw it all out. But he threw the baby out with the bathwater. The untruths in the church (not in the Bible) he rejected but did not find the truth within the scripture. I am very sorry so many reject the lies the church teaches but do not find the truth instead. Its hard to fully blame them for leaving.

[Mae von H]

Hello Mae von H

You say - "Very good question. According to Him, His strength is made perfect in weakness. Second, the goal is family or relationship not religious duty. Third, people have the tendency to venerate things which is easily seen in all religions but Judaism and Christianity. If God delivered a book, men wouldn’t read it but would worship it. I’m convinced that this is why the Jews weren’t allowed to know where Moses was buried and why Satan wanted the body. But it’s just my opinion."

---

Your tone has improved, but the madness continues to run ,unabated!.I had to sit down after this and try to figure out how a rational ,intelligent person can wander into such dark glades.

Neither your tone nor your inability to understand have improved. But you are not alone. I have explained the mind of God to men before and like in the New Testament, they just heard thunder. It is hard to explain why you do not understand that God prefers relationship rather than slaves. Why is this difficult? That people do tend to venerate physical objects one can probably chalk up to not being very traveled. I have been to Rome as well as other religious "Meccas" and that is very obvious. If one never left home, then one cannot imagine people bowing down to stone.

MvH - "I’m convinced that this is why the Jews weren’t allowed to know where Moses was buried and why Satan wanted the body"

His strength is made perfect in weakness????

OK, I grant you that one needs to be on the inside to understand that point. If one has never walked with God, one only hears thunder. So on that one I can see why you do not get it.

.. If God delivered a book, men wouldn’t read it but would worship it....????

Again, I have been to places where people bowed down to stone. It is hard to imagine for the modern man. It is nevertheless true.

the goal is family or relationship not religious duty???

Why is this difficult to understand?

In modern political discussion, all this is described as spreading disinformation and it is an offence. I find it baffling! Just my opinion!
Thanks

As I said at the opening...you just heard thunder. Thunder is baffling. And it is not disinformation but that is now the favorite arrow in the quiver of governments and others who cannot offer anything of substance. To he who has ears (or eyes in this case) let him hear (or read) and understand. To the others....well I cannot help it if they hear only thunder.

[Masterblaster]

Hello Mae von H

You say - "If God delivered a book, men wouldn’t read it but would worship it. I’m convinced that this is why the Jews weren’t allowed to know where Moses was buried and why Satan wanted the body. But it’s just my opinion."
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Your opinion is yours, MvH and good luck with it. My examination of it will be forceful to match the 'far out' nature of your logic. You seem well able to 'take it', and respond back, so let us continue.

I have seen countless radical Muslims come on to this site and preach. You get it from some radical Christians as well. They are banned within a week, usually for preaching, or just basic rudeness. I attempt to dodge the same fate myself.

Your 'thunder', is always going to be short of this mark, so do not worry. It is refreshingly different and ,as I said , you appear to be able to take it as well as dish it out. You are correct that ,I do not 'really', hear you,...all I know is that your opinion is not mine.

I totally accept your point about idolatry within most religions. It can be a bottomless pit for all. Whether it is an over-emphasis on iconography, ceremony, presentation, expression , etc. It is an obvious failing. Bible worship is the obvious sanctuary of the weak. Hiding under an umbrella in the Serengeti!

Ring-fencing our personally achieved understandings can be our greatest form of idolatry. It is our umbrella. That is why I am considering your attitudes even though my instinct is to ignore them.

Isn't Satan an idol, MvH? Why is he not? Is he the epitome of Evil , the antithesis of Good,or something??
Aren't spurious theories about Mose's grave, and it's significance, just self-indulgent mental titillations, for you. To disseminate this stuff is.....what???
Is it not just disinformation? Why do it?
I do not hear thunder..I smell something else.
Who/What is Satan? Is he like Thor, the Thunder Maker?
You get this weird Satanic Mysticism sometimes when engaging with Mormonism....are you one of them? Apocalyptic or not?

Thanks

[Mae von H]

Hello Mae von H

You say- "If God delivered a book, men wouldn’t read it but would worship it. I’m convinced that this is why the Jews weren’t allowed to know where Moses was buried and why Satan wanted the body. But it’s just my opinion."
--------
Your opinion is yours, MvH and good luck with it. My examination of it will be forceful to match the 'far out' nature of your logic. You seem well able to 'take it', and respond back, so let us continue.

I have had a great deal of "luck" with my understanding. Whether your response with be so forceful remains to be seen but you certainly have a very high opinion of your formidablity.

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).
I have seen countless radical Muslims come on to this site and preach. You get it from some radical Christians as well. They are banned within a week, usually for preaching, or just basic rudeness. I attempt to dodge the same fate myself.

Your 'thunder', is always going to be short of this mark, so do not worry. It is refreshingly different and ,as I said , you appear to be able to take it as well as dish it out. You are correct that ,I do not 'really', hear you,...all I know is that your opinion is not mine.

Fair enough although the thunder is not my own. Of course our opinions differ. Doesn't that make the exchange all the more interesting.

I totally accept your point about idolatry within most religions. It can be a bottomless pit for all. Whether it is an over-emphasis on iconography, ceremony, presentation, expression , etc. It is an obvious failing. Bible worship is the obvious sanctuary of the weak. Hiding under an umbrella in the Serengeti!

I know an interesting story on Bible worship. A pastor once bought himself a large, gold rimmed Bible which he put on a pedistyle. He was fond of fountain pens and one day the bottle of ink rolled across his beautiful new Bible and he was upset. Then God told him he was worshipping the book. It happens if we are not careful.

Ring-fencing our personally achieved understandings can be our greatest form of idolatry. It is our umbrella. That is why I am considering your attitudes even though my instinct is to ignore them.

Thank you, I guess.

Isn't Satan an idol, MvH? not that I ever heard of besides the church of Satan.Why is he not? Is he the epitome of Evil , the antithesis of Good,or something??why would anyone worship known evil?
Aren't spurious theories about Mose's grave, and it's significance, just self-indulgent mental titillations, for you. no, not at all. I read this in the scripture. It is not my opinion as to the Devil wanting to have it.To disseminate this stuff is.....what???I am not disseminating stuff. It is what is in scripture. I am disseminating scripture in that case. I will continue to do so.
Is it not just disinformation? Why do it?It isn't. Dodged that bullet.
I do not hear thunder..I smell something else.thunder is heard, not smelt...wrong sense

Who/What is Satan? Is he like Thor, the Thunder Maker?
You get this weird Satanic Mysticism sometimes when engaging with Mormonism....are you one of them? Apocalyptic or not?

Do you really have no idea who Satan is described as being? Really?
And no, I am not a Mormon but I know what you mean. Same with JWs. There is something occultic about dealing with them. But you ask a fair question and I answer it straightforward, I am neither a JW, a Mormon or a member of any other cult. How do you describe yourself?