Prayer

[POI]

For Debate: Is prayer just talking to yourself? If not, why not? Sure, prayer may make one feel satisfied/other, but there is likely no agency, on the other side, facilitating such desired response(s).

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People pray to many differing god(s) and/or other. Statistically speaking, many god(s) and/or other aren't answering, as many of these god(s) and/or other likely do not even exist. Hence, at least in part, many are merely talking to themselves in prayer. If many of the desired result(s) can happen in prayer, without any agency actually responding, because such agency does not exist, then it's quite plausible this is the case for all prayer.

[Mae von H]

Not satisfied with the given theist answers, to this point. I offer up posts 52 and 58 for a response. Why is prayer not merely talking to yourself?

Depends upon who you are addressing whether they are there at all or whether they are listening at all.

Hello

Hello

Prayer
- self- mutterings....Yes!
- a cry for help.....Yes!
- a message in a bottle......Yes!
- a radio transmission to the cosmos...Yes!
- an act of desperation.....Yes!
- a re- reinvigorating mantra...Yes!

I could probably do 20...'a cry for help and protection to the Great Out-there', is my staple modus. All of what we do is us talking to ourselves, POI, take me washing my Tesla, on the front drive-way every Saturday morning.

The Our Father is my go-to.

Thanks

You know, when I read this and think about it, anyone with this view is very likely talking to themselves so it might be that you have spoken truly.

Hello MvH

I cannot dress it up for you. I cannot make it interesting for you. That is just the way I roll!
Thanks

You are wrong on it not being interesting. I find it very interesting.

[Masterblaster]

Hello Mae von H

You say - "You are wrong on it not being interesting. I find it very interesting"
----'
Thanks,....I think?

I see it like this. Why would God want to communicate with me? Wasn't placing me here enough? I need to do the motions of prayer for me. Is God listening? No
Is prayer effective? I think so.
I fire out little cameos of prayer in my head every day. If I start to verbalize them I will be taken away by the guys with white coats. My prayer is a crude form of eastern meditation( I think). Today I said a silent prayer for women minding small babies and for the miracle that is motherhood. At 3 pm today I will hang my head in shame as I contemplate the cross. My prayer will be that people see themselves in the wood and nails of the cross. To cross these two prayerful references, I will contemplate the ordeal being suffered by mothers on all sides of the Israeli- Palestinian conflict. I could ramble into prayer as Narcissus would gaze into a pond.
This may all be more garbage for TRANSPONDER's composter...but ,as I said, I cannot dress it up. That is the way I roll.

Prayer, at a high level is amazingly powerful. I have seen this in the Chapel at the top of the Spanish Steps in Rome. It is like a trance to proper practitioners of the art. The people of the Buddhist villages in places like Thailand feed their monks and recognise the importance that their advanced meditation and practise confers on their own secular existences.
In short, MvH, I am not an expert in prayer, in any way. I think that prayer gets its sincerity from personal need, but I cannot even guess at its overall effectiveness. It works for me.
Thanks

[TRANSPONDER]

Yes, but it's the old problem - limited human perception.

Although believers aim this at science, it is actually more relevant to Beleivers. They observe prayer, what does and they adapt the (undeniable) effect to their own legends and fairytales. Prayer is a mental effect, common to all peoples and cultures, but the idea that it really achieves anything other than a feleood/confidence factor let alone supposedly being answered by a god and even more delusionary, Not answered for people who pray to a different god, is a very common misunderstanding of a natural, evolved instinct.

[TRANSPONDER]

Yes, but it's the old problem - limited human perception.

Although believers aim this at science, it is actually more relevant to Beleivers. They observe prayer, what does and they adapt the (undeniable) effect to their own legends and fairytales. Prayer is a mental effect, common to all peoples and cultures, but the idea that it really achieves anything other than a feleood/confidence factor let alone supposedly being answered by a god and even more delusionary, Not answered for people who pray to a different god, is a very common misunderstanding of a natural, evolved instinct.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "Prayer is a mental effect, common to all peoples and cultures, ...... a natural, evolved instinct.

-----
Ok,T, now you know about prayer. Not bad for a professed atheist.

You say it is a natural evolved instinct...a mental effect..

How did it evolve?
Is prayer peculiar to humans?
Why would that be so?
Outline its evolvement,...like dates and stages ( just generally)...share your declared knowledge. As you say, (all the time)give us proof!

Let us see what a professed atheist knows about what theistic prayer is. Is there an atheistic equivalence. What is it? How would that work?

Do atheists wish upon a star?
I hope they do!
Imagine,...some where over the rainbow,
Thanks

[POI]

Not satisfied with the given theist answers, to this point. I offer up posts 52 and 58 for a response. Why is prayer not merely talking to yourself?

Depends upon who you are addressing whether they are there at all or whether they are listening at all.

You already know which claimed God we are speaking about, the claims for the Bible God. If you are not going to engage it, then just don't respond.

[TRANSPONDER]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "Prayer is a mental effect, common to all peoples and cultures, ...... a natural, evolved instinct.

-----
Ok,T, now you know about prayer. Not bad for a professed atheist.

You say it is a natural evolved instinct...a mental effect..

How did it evolve?
Is prayer peculiar to humans?
Why would that be so?
Outline its evolvement,...like dates and stages ( just generally)...share your declared knowledge. As you say, (all the time)give us proof!

Let us see what a professed atheist knows about what theistic prayer is. Is there an atheistic equivalence. What is it? How would that work?

Do atheists wish upon a star?
I hope they do!
Imagine,...some where over the rainbow,
Thanks

I will not lie to you, nor pull the trick of: 'You disprove my claim'. I argue that prayer is a mental effect, because people in all cultures do it. The effect of contact with 'god' (or whatever) through meditation and asking for some favor or another are different sides of the same coin.

I do not claim to 'know' any more than that, and I hypothesise that any such effect, trait or ability we have has evolved as a survival mechanism.

I can guess at some of the reasons for religious feelings, myth - making, fortune - telling, prayer, communal worship and the like; and I suggest they are starting -points for study, not a final answer i have myself.

But whatever this thing is, and whether I'm right or not, one thing is clear - no one religion has dibs on it and whatever it is, it is no evidence for any one single religion. That much I do know.

[TRANSPONDER]

Not satisfied with the given theist answers, to this point. I offer up posts 52 and 58 for a response. Why is prayer not merely talking to yourself?

Depends upon who you are addressing whether they are there at all or whether they are listening at all.

You already know which claimed God we are speaking about, the claims for the Bible God. If you are not going to engage it, then just don't respond.

I'm sure it is talking to one's self. In the case of mental discussions. I do it all the time and I know it's me. So I don't believe those who claim they are communing with God or Jesus or both. It happens in all religions so, even if one credited a 'god' behind it, it does not validate any particular god, religion or Holy Book.

I do know that 'God hates the same people you do'. And I was struck by an opponent suddenly went from ET to UR in religious belief - and his god in the head went with him. Before yore werry eyes, proof it is all in the head.

It is no surprise to find, then, that some deconversion stories where the believer had doubts, and the usual smooth, slick and slimy apologetics didn't stand up against proper questions, nor the appeal to Faith cut the mustard, the voice in the head reasoned past the stock apologetics, and finally asked God directly for help.
Nothing.

I hear it so often. All the time the questioner is willing to accept their own lies or those of others, then 'God' is answering them; but when the doubts and questions cut through accepting Faith and demand more...why then we end up where we en up on the board - crickets, apart from the persistent denial, personals and grubby tricks of religious apologetics.

This forum was started (so I read) to argue about (if not for) the case for religion. I appreciate that. But the fact is that it has gone the way it did on my 'Other piano' - the atheist case dominated so well that, aside from beating off all the attacks on 'atheism' forum, the 'religion forum' became the holding fief of atheism too, and 'Christianity' forum was having to demand that atheists be forbidden from posting there.

So whatever the purpose of this excellently run, and well - monitored forum, the atheist case is doing much better and all Theism has in the end, is denial, fiddling and personals.

[Mae von H]

Not satisfied with the given theist answers, to this point. I offer up posts 52 and 58 for a response. Why is prayer not merely talking to yourself?

Depends upon who you are addressing whether they are there at all or whether they are listening at all.

You already know which claimed God we are speaking about, the claims for the Bible God. If you are not going to engage it, then just don't respond.

Your description does not fit the God I know but includes deities others pray to. If you want to speak ONLY of the God in the Bible, don’t describe others.

[Mae von H]

Not satisfied with the given theist answers, to this point. I offer up posts 52 and 58 for a response. Why is prayer not merely talking to yourself?

Depends upon who you are addressing whether they are there at all or whether they are listening at all.

You already know which claimed God we are speaking about, the claims for the Bible God. If you are not going to engage it, then just don't respond.

I'm sure it is talking to one's self. In the case of mental discussions. I do it all the time and I know it's me. So I don't believe those who claim they are communing with God or Jesus or both. It happens in all religions so, even if one credited a 'god' behind it, it does not validate any particular god, religion or Holy Book.

Which other religions? I’ve talked to Hindus and Muslims and they have no such experience! They aren’t taught it can happen either. It’s very troubling when you keep making up stuff. Some Atheists just boldly make up stuff to support their claim.

I do know that 'God hates the same people you do'. And I was struck by an opponent suddenly went from ET to UR in religious belief - and his god in the head went with him. Before yore werry eyes, proof it is all in the head.

It is no surprise to find, then, that some deconversion stories where the believer had doubts, and the usual smooth, slick and slimy apologetics didn't stand up against proper questions, nor the appeal to Faith cut the mustard, the voice in the head reasoned past the stock apologetics, and finally asked God directly for help.
Nothing.

No mere human who has an ounce of wisdom is going to explain himself to those who have already decided to embrace lies about them. I know whereof I speak. He explains Himself to me every time I ask Him. But I have trained my self to love the truth. No one explains themselves to those who are eager to hate them. It’s very foolish.

I hear it so often. All the time the questioner is willing to accept their own lies or those of others, then 'God' is answering them; but when the doubts and questions cut through accepting Faith and demand more...why then we end up where we en up on the board - crickets, apart from the persistent denial, personals and grubby tricks of religious apologetics.

I hear it so often. The form of Christian doctrine they were taught (but isn’t Biblical) doesn’t stand up to doubts, How many Christians have I encountered who abandon all reason rather than find the truth because what they were taught doesn’t stand up to real life. Now I’ve done this and did not come out with the hatred towards God the atheists feed in themselves as evidenced by the words they choose when expressing themselves. I've come to know the truth and the truth has set me free. And God explaining Himself has been extremely delightful intellectually.

This forum was started (so I read) to argue about (if not for) the case for religion. I appreciate that. But the fact is that it has gone the way it did on my 'Other piano' - the atheist case dominated so well that, aside from beating off all the attacks on 'atheism' forum, the 'religion forum' became the holding fief of atheism too, and 'Christianity' forum was having to demand that atheists be forbidden from posting there.

The atheists in general find it very difficult to not employ personal attacks. They cannot even bring themselves to describe God (who definitely isn’t posting with them) in such hateful demeaning terms, its difficult to look through the stinking garbage for a bit one can address. And if they lose an exchange then the venom just increases.

So whatever the purpose of this excellently run, and well - monitored forum, the atheist case is doing much better and all Theism has in the end, is denial, fiddling and personals.

Case closed. One cannot help a blind man see the color green.