Obvious Designer?

[POI]

Otseng's statement: "This is the variation of the omnipotent God argument by imagining a hypothetical perfect design. There is no need for God to be a "perfect" designer.

In human designs as well, things are not perfect and have flaws, but they are still designed. Nobody claims since iPhones have flaws in them that Apple engineers are either crappy designers or they don't exist at all."

*****************************

There is just so much to flesh out in this cluster of statements, I do not know where to begin. I guess we can start here and see where this goes.

For Debate: Is it obvious humans were designed, or not? Please explain why or why not. If you believe so, does this design lead more-so towards...

a) an intelligent designer?
b) an unintelligent designer?
c) a deceptive designer?

Like all other topics, let's see where this one goes.... And for funsies, here is a 10-minute video -- optional, but begins to put forth a case for options b) or c), if "designed" at all:

[TRANSPONDER]

In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

So, were you forgiven

Only if he returned the stolen bike.

That's a fair point - repentance is an integral part of forgiveness. But where there is none 'justification' can be applied "They had it coming; they deserverd it, they were sinners". There's the problem with Religious morality. It is not even handed, but massively biased.

Though this is not about Design so much as the problem of evil, which is a kind of a design - claim.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
For Debate: Is it obvious humans were designed, or not? Please explain why or why not. If you believe so, does this design lead more-so towards...

a) an intelligent designer?
b) an unintelligent designer?
c) a deceptive designer?
...

I believe humans were designed and created. Humans can't make as intelligent design, and have no idea how to create life from non-organic dead material, therefore I think the design is very intelligent.

Other reason for me to think the designer is intelligent is that everything works very finely, in spite of the corruption that has happened many thousands of years.

Everything in nature points to that in the beginning the creation was good, and after God was rejected, things have started to corrupt and get weaker. For example atheists say whales had feet once, not they are so corrupt that they don't have much remaining. And there are also many other alleged atrophies that tell about great degeneration, that some mistakenly call "evolution", which obviously is not very intelligent theory.

Your belief is irrelevant. What is your evidence? Your argument from decay is pure ignorance and denial. If you think that human existence isn't three times better than it was three hundred years ago, then you are are simply making claims based on lack of knowledge, information and understanding and you do not deserve the paradise of easy living, convenience and paradise that science has designed for you.

But to the only minor point you have 'we can't create Life'. The last ditch gap for God. There are three responses:

1. We at least have an explanatory mechanism, while goddunnit has no more than a claim.

2. Even if we concerded that a god (name your own) diddit, the evidence is that Life evolved from the first Blob, and did not gate made in a 6 -day Lump. The Bible is wrong, and that is the actual point of the argument.

3 goes like this:

"You can't make Life in the laboratory."

"But we have an explanation."

"Doesn't count unlessv you can do it in front of us."
"Well, then, can you make a body rise from the dead?"

"What? No, so what?"

"Then if we can't credit Abiogenesis, why would we credit the resurrection?"

"Because it's recorded in the Bible."

"So is evolution recorded in the fossil record."

Ok, That a crummy argument, but the 'goddunnit because we can't create Life'is a crummy one also.

[Mae von H]

In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

So, were you forgiven

Only if he returned the stolen bike.

That's a fair point - repentance is an integral part of forgiveness. But where there is none 'justification' can be applied "They had it coming; they deserverd it, they were sinners". There's the problem with Religious morality. It is not even handed, but massively biased.

Sounds like your input has been the faulty theology so common. You aren’t to blame. No one teaches restitution anymore. Jesus forgive one guy only after he agreed to return misappropriated funds…only after. The church today wants free and cheap grace/forgiveness. How can an atheist learn the truth when a believer doesn’t know it?

Though this is not about Design so much as the problem of evil, which is a kind of a design - claim.

Yes, I agree. It’s complex. But I studied science and that’s complex. What a complex Being creates is complex which is not to be wondered at. When one reaches maturity, the answers given in childhood no longer suffice. Rightly so.

[1213]

...Your argument from decay is pure ignorance and denial. If you think that human existence isn't three times better than it was three hundred years ago, then you are are simply making claims based on lack of knowledge, information and understanding and you do not deserve the paradise of easy living, convenience and paradise that science has designed for you.

So, you think it is not true that for example there is constantly errors in DNA replication? If we accept that to be true, it shows everything is decaying from a state that was more complete before.

[TRANSPONDER]

...Your argument from decay is pure ignorance and denial. If you think that human existence isn't three times better than it was three hundred years ago, then you are are simply making claims based on lack of knowledge, information and understanding and you do not deserve the paradise of easy living, convenience and paradise that science has designed for you.

So, you think it is not true that for example there is constantly errors in DNA replication? If we accept that to be true, it shows everything is decaying from a state that was more complete before.

There indeed DNA mutations, which is why evolution works. But this not (contrary to ID propaganda) always a decay. The mutations can be beneficial as much as deleterious or neutral. But evolution - theory argues that even mutations leading to loss of features can be an advantage. Cave fish lose sight as it is of no value to them.

The argument from'errors' (mutations is based on ignorance as much as the the point actually being discussed which is that human society is not actually getting worse, overall and our standard of living, health and longevity is better than a couple of centuries ago.

[1213]

There indeed DNA mutations, which is why evolution works. But this not (contrary to ID propaganda) always a decay. The mutations can be beneficial as much as deleterious or neutral. But evolution - theory argues that even mutations leading to loss of features can be an advantage. Cave fish lose sight as it is of no value to them.

Even if the mutation would be beneficial, it always is a result of degeneration.

[POI]

Do you know why people get the UTI's?

There exist many reasons. Some of which have to do with 1) legal sex between a married couple, 2) improper whipping, or 3) having a much shorter urethra than a male. Do you opt for B) inept design, or C) a deceptive design, or D) no designer? It cannot be A) 'intelligent design'.

I think it is very intelligent design that urinary tract is there, because urine is a disinfectant. Probably the whole reproduction system would not work without it being so.

See above.

I believe, if people would live by God's rules, it would greatly reduce the risk of getting UTI's. And if people would not have rejected God at the beginning, I believe such problems would not exist.

Even if all you state were true, you have to admit that UTI's would still happen. Crap designer at best...

God has no such rules against having married sex, or instructions about proper whipping, or the fact that the female's urethra is much shorter than the males.

[POI]

those who think the design is flawed, generally are uneducated in human anatomy and physiology. Ignorance is bliss for the atheists in this discussion.

Wow! More of the pot calling the kettle black here...

I'm currently exchanging with 1213 about the female vagina (post 17), how it possesses some "crap" design at best. Feel free to set all us 'atheists' straight, as we are all ignorant.

[The Nice Centurion]

Otseng's statement: "This is the variation of the omnipotent God argument by imagining a hypothetical perfect design. There is no need for God to be a "perfect" designer.

In human designs as well, things are not perfect and have flaws, but they are still designed. Nobody claims since iPhones have flaws in them that Apple engineers are either crappy designers or they don't exist at all."

*****************************

But Apple engineers are not commonly presupposed to be All good, All knowing, All powerful. Thats the difference.

And because of that difference comparing them with the christian god as plan to help him out of the DD (Designer Dilemma) is futile

[POI]

Otseng's statement: "This is the variation of the omnipotent God argument by imagining a hypothetical perfect design. There is no need for God to be a "perfect" designer.

In human designs as well, things are not perfect and have flaws, but they are still designed. Nobody claims since iPhones have flaws in them that Apple engineers are either crappy designers or they don't exist at all."

*****************************

But Apple engineers are not commonly presupposed to be All good, All knowing, All powerful. Thats the difference.

And because of that difference comparing them with the christian god as plan to help him out of the DD (Designer Dilemma) is futile

And additionally, even if we were to compare God to an Apple designer, the current iphone is on version 15, where-as God's humans are still in beta?