Athanasian Creed - The Man-Made Doctrine

[2timothy316]

For clarity, is the Athanasian Creed found here https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/c ... sian-creed the accepted belief of the trinity for all trinitarians?
If not what is? Who is reading this creed for the first time? Who considers it to be holy scripture?

The creed ends with "one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully."
If it isn't scripture...How do they have the authority to say such a thing?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #1]

Good questions. I'll bet you get zero responses. Probably most posters here don't even know what the Athanasian Creed is.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #1]

Good questions. I'll bet you get zero responses. Probably most posters here don't even know what the Athanasian Creed is.

You're probably right.

I mean...

"The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son."

How can a being be both begotten and not created?
Begotten - "Something is begotten when it's been generated by procreation — in other words, it's been fathered."
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/begotten

As I was reading it I felt embarrassed and pity for others that believe in this creed. I mean I can't even get one trinitarian to make a single post to attempt to defend the creed or even say its not correct.

[The Tanager]

I do not think the creed is holy scripture or that its acceptance is required for salvation. The most accepted creed for trinitarians would probably be the Niceno-Constantinople Creed, but it also isn’t holy scripture or required for salvation either.

As to how a being can be begotten and not created, they weren’t using vocabulary.com’s definition (or English for that matter). Being ‘begotten’ refers to being of the same substance, so it doesn’t directly address whether one began to exist (was created) or not.

[2timothy316]

I do not think the creed is holy scripture or that its acceptance is required for salvation. The most accepted creed for trinitarians would probably be the Niceno-Constantinople Creed, but it also isn’t holy scripture or required for salvation either.

As to how a being can be begotten and not created, they weren’t using vocabulary.com’s definition (or English for that matter). Being ‘begotten’ refers to being of the same substance, so it doesn’t directly address whether one began to exist (was created) or not.

So there are different trinity doctrines? Interesting.
What determines the one that should take the higher authority?

[The Tanager]

So there are different trinity doctrines? Interesting.
What determines the one that should take the higher authority?

There is the basic doctrine of "one being-three persons" that is universal, but there are different attempts to try to use further language to get at understanding the trinity. Why is that "interesting"? There are various different non-trinitarian doctrines as well; that fact alone doesn't make a non-trinitarian view incorrect.

[2timothy316]

So there are different trinity doctrines? Interesting.
What determines the one that should take the higher authority?

There is the basic doctrine of "one being-three persons" that is universal, but there are different attempts to try to use further language to get at understanding the trinity. Why is that "interesting"?

Sadly no other trinitarians are willing to touch this thread. They certainly like to push their doctrine on almost every thread, except here for some reason. However, I have talked to other trinitarans that would take issue with your statements. Some would argue the 'basic doctrine' is the ONLY doctrine. This is what makes it interesting.

There are various different non-trinitarian doctrines as well; that fact alone doesn't make a non-trinitarian view incorrect.

So because others have many doctrines that gives trinitarians license to do the same with their doctrine? Who comes up with these rules? Who gives others the authority to stray from the 'basic doctrine' of the trinity?
You say that salvation doesn't depend on believing the Athanasian creed. Isn't that creed the basic creed all other trinity doctrines come from? Who has the authority to toss out "one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully" from the creed?

[2timothy316]

As to how a being can be begotten and not created, they weren’t using vocabulary.com’s definition (or English for that matter). Being ‘begotten’ refers to being of the same substance, so it doesn’t directly address whether one began to exist (was created) or not.

Who made this up?

[The Tanager]

Sadly no other trinitarians are willing to touch this thread. They certainly like to push their doctrine on almost every thread, except here for some reason. However, I have talked to other trinitarans that would take issue with your statements. Some would argue the 'basic doctrine' is the ONLY doctrine. This is what makes it interesting.

I think you misunderstood me because I would agree with them.

So because others have many doctrines that gives trinitarians license to do the same with their doctrine? Who comes up with these rules? Who gives others the authority to stray from the 'basic doctrine' of the trinity?

No, and I didn’t say it did give trinitarians license. All I claimed is that there are (second and third tier) disagreements within any broad worldview. The attempts at understanding the trinity (like the Athanasian creed and others) don’t stray from the basic doctrine, but try to get at the deeper stuff within that doctrine.

You say that salvation doesn't depend on believing the Athanasian creed. Isn't that creed the basic creed all other trinity doctrines come from? Who has the authority to toss out "one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully" from the creed?

No, the basic source that all orthodox Christian trinitarian explanations come from is the Bible. The Athanasian creed came in the 4th century AD as one attempt to explain the Biblical data which many, but not all Christians accept. The Bible doesn’t say you have to espouse the correct view of the trinity to be saved.

As to how a being can be begotten and not created, they weren’t using vocabulary.com’s definition (or English for that matter). Being ‘begotten’ refers to being of the same substance, so it doesn’t directly address whether one began to exist (was created) or not.

Who made this up?

Who made what up? What “begotten” meant? It was a Greek word that Christians used to talk about Jesus’ one-of-a-kind relationship with the Father based on their understanding of Jesus’ life and teachings.

[2timothy316]

No, the basic source that all orthodox Christian trinitarian explanations come from is the Bible. The Athanasian creed came in the 4th century AD as one attempt to explain the Biblical data which many, but not all Christians accept. The Bible doesn’t say you have to espouse the correct view of the trinity to be saved.

"Correct view" you say. Clear this up for me. You mean one must believe in the basic belief of the trinity to be saved right?