Jesus Christ has a God that he worships

[onewithhim]

Jesus said that we all must love Jehovah our God and worship only Him. He stated clearly that his Father was the only true God (John 17:3); he didn't say that we are the only true God. In many places in the Scriptures he calls the Father "my God."

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3, KJV)

"Jesus saith unto her [Mary], Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father, but go to my brethren and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God. (John 20:17, KJV)

"At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted: My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Mark 15:34, KJV)

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall no more go out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (Revelation 3:12, KJV)

I think Jesus wants us to recognize that his Father, Jehovah, is God, and he is God's Son. (John 10:36) What do you make of this?

[onewithhim]

I, for one, think that we can see clearly that Jesus is subordinate to Jehovah God, the Father. Jesus worships Him and indicates that everyone should do so.

[onewithhim]

I, for one, think that we can see clearly that Jesus is subordinate to Jehovah God, the Father. Jesus worships Him and indicates that everyone should do so.

If Jesus worships God, then he cannot be God.

[The Tanager]

The problem with this issue is that there are groups of verses that if they alone were read, you’d have one group of fresh people saying Jesus wasn’t God (by looking at only one group of verses) and the other group saying the Bible teaches Jesus was God (by looking at the other group). One must deal with both groups of passages.

The trinity is not contradicted by the verses you quoted. They weren’t addressing the issue of the trinity at all, they have different contexts. We can’t read issues into texts that aren’t being addressed.

In John 17:3, Jesus is talking about what eternal life is. It’s through knowing the Father he was praying to and knowing Jesus; not just the Father. Jesus then talks about sharing the glory with God before the world was created (v. 5), a glory that God shares with no one (Isa 42:8). You don’t claim equality with God like that if you don’t think you are God.

In John 20:17, Jesus is comforting Mary and his disciples with a message, not addressing later questions of the trinity. He then proceeds to breathe the Holy Spirit on them; only God pours out his spirit on others (v. 22). Jesus gives them the right to forgive sins, which only God can do (v. 23). Then Thomas’ story comes in where Thomas directly calls Jesus “my God” (v. 28) and Jesus doesn’t correct him (v. 29).

In Mark 15:34, Jesus is quoting the first line of Psalm 22 so that its message would come into the minds of those around him, one that ends in great hope and praise after beginning to feel abandoned by God as the women and John (maybe others) watching must have felt seeing Jesus up there.

In Rev 3:12, Jesus gives a message to John for the church in Philadelphia of praise for their obedience to his word and name, encourages them to continue to endure, and promises the reward of eternal life poetically through those three names. It’s not addressing the trinity one way or the other. Just two chapters earlier (1:17), Jesus called himself the first and the last, which is a title for God (Rev, 1:8 and Isa 44:6). John describes him as the one like a Son of Man (1:13) from Daniel’s prophecy, whom Daniel calls the Ancient of Days (Dan 7:9), which was a title for God. Revelation goes on, a couple of chapters later, to say Jesus, the Lamb, is worshiped and given praise, honor, glory, and power with God (Rev 5:11-14).

In John 10:36, Jesus has been accused of blasphemy and instead of denying it, he doubles down saying look at his works to know he is what he claimed to be.

Jesus calling the Father “my Father and my God” doesn’t contradict the trinity. Calling my wife “my love” or “my heart” doesn’t address what I feel about myself in relation to those terms. Jesus was human and, as a human, can and should call the Father his Father and his God. But Jesus, even in the immediate context of each of those verses you quote, not to mention the many other passages trinitarians point to, is painted as being equal with God in spite of the terms Jesus uses to talk to the Father.

[onewithhim]

The problem with this issue is that there are groups of verses that if they alone were read, you’d have one group of fresh people saying Jesus wasn’t God (by looking at only one group of verses) and the other group saying the Bible teaches Jesus was God (by looking at the other group). One must deal with both groups of passages.

The trinity is not contradicted by the verses you quoted. They weren’t addressing the issue of the trinity at all, they have different contexts. We can’t read issues into texts that aren’t being addressed.

Yes, we must deal with both groups of passages. The trinity is addressed every time Jesus says something about the Father who is God. It is important to view God in the correct manner. When Jesus says to the Father, "YOU are the only true God," this undermines the whole view of Jesus being God. The Scriptures I quoted show that Jesus is SUBJECT TO the Father, and this speaks volumes about any "trinity."

[The Tanager]

Yes, we must deal with both groups of passages. The trinity is addressed every time Jesus says something about the Father who is God. It is important to view God in the correct manner. When Jesus says to the Father, "YOU are the only true God," this undermines the whole view of Jesus being God. The Scriptures I quoted show that Jesus is SUBJECT TO the Father, and this speaks volumes about any "trinity."

I've given some of those passages (simply by reading a few verses beyond the ones you quoted, not even bringing in the many other passages trinitarians point to), so if we must deal with them, deal with them by responding to post 4. I'll summarize:

1. How can Jesus share in the glory God had and has (John 17:5) if God shares His glory with no one (Isa 42:8)?

2. How can Jesus pour out the spirit of God on his disciples (John 20:22) if he isn't God?

3. How can Jesus give the right to forgive sins (John 20:23) if he isn't God?

4. Why does Thomas call Jesus "my God" (John 20:28) and Jesus not correct him?

5. Why does quoting the first line of a Psalm equate to a claim that "I'm not God"?

6. How can Jesus take titles reserved for God (first and last, the Ancient of Days), if he isn't God?

7. How can Jesus receive worship, praise, honor, glory, and power with God, if he isn't God?

8. Why does Jesus double down when accused of blasphemy (John 10:36)?

[onewithhim]

Yes, we must deal with both groups of passages. The trinity is addressed every time Jesus says something about the Father who is God. It is important to view God in the correct manner. When Jesus says to the Father, "YOU are the only true God," this undermines the whole view of Jesus being God. The Scriptures I quoted show that Jesus is SUBJECT TO the Father, and this speaks volumes about any "trinity."

I've given some of those passages (simply by reading a few verses beyond the ones you quoted, not even bringing in the many other passages trinitarians point to), so if we must deal with them, deal with them by responding to post 4. I'll summarize:

1. How can Jesus share in the glory God had and has (John 17:5) if God shares His glory with no one (Isa 42:8)?

2. How can Jesus pour out the spirit of God on his disciples (John 20:22) if he isn't God?

3. How can Jesus give the right to forgive sins (John 20:23) if he isn't God?

4. Why does Thomas call Jesus "my God" (John 20:28) and Jesus not correct him?

5. Why does quoting the first line of a Psalm equate to a claim that "I'm not God"?

6. How can Jesus take titles reserved for God (first and last, the Ancient of Days), if he isn't God?

7. How can Jesus receive worship, praise, honor, glory, and power with God, if he isn't God?

8. Why does Jesus double down when accused of blasphemy (John 10:36)?

(1) The Hebrew ka-vohdh is most often translated as "glory," but originally meant "opinion or reputation." A couple of its senses are "honor" (Luke 14:10) and "splendor" (Luke 2:9; ICorinthians 15:40). As to the meaning of "glory" in relation to Jehovah God, the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, edited by G. Kittel explains: "If in relation to man(ka-vohdh) denotes that which makes him impressive and demands recognition, whether in terms of material possessions or striking (dignity or importance), in relation to God it implies that which makes God impressive to man."(Translated by G. Bromiley, 1971, Vol.2, p.238) So "glory" may refer to an impressive evidence of God's almighty power.

Concerning Jesus....the Bible says that, at his first miracle, "he made his glory manifest." (John 2:11) "Glory" here refer to an impressive evidence of miraculous power identifying Jesus as the promised Messiah (John 11:40-44). Jesus prayed, on another occasion, "Father glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was." Jesus used the term here to refer to the EXALTED STATE that he enjoyed in heaven before coming to the earth. In answer to that prayer, Jehovah "glorified" his Servant, Jesus, by resurrecting him and bringing him back into heaven (Acts 3:13-15). The glory that was seen at the transfiguration had to do with the regal magnificence that Jesus was to receive at his coming in Kingdom power (2Peter 1:16). So Jesus isn't usurping any glory that belonged to his Father, but was reflecting his Father's glory as kindness to him concerning his resurrection and ascention once again to heaven. And all this is impressive evidence of God's power. The term "glory" has various shades of meaning. Jesus' glory wasn't the same as the glory that belongs to Almighty God, but showed God's power in relation to his resurrection and return to heaven.

[SiNcE_1985]

I, for one, think that we can see clearly that Jesus is subordinate to Jehovah God, the Father. Jesus worships Him and indicates that everyone should do so.

That would all be a great point, if it weren't for the fact that we have Phil 2:5-9 which states that Jesus was in the form of God and thus temporary gave up his Godship, taking the form of a servant...thus, even though him and Yahweh were equals, Jesus willfully made himself subordinate to Yahweh and came on earth to identify with his creation in human form.

And part of that identity was playing the role of a son who learns, yearns, listens, loves, and carries out the will of his beloved Father.

And if that isn't good enough for you, we have quite a few scriptures of Jesus being worshipped by his followers (and even the angels).

And we all know that worship is reserved ONLY for God..and Jesus would not have welcomed worship if he was not to be worshipped...and instead of rebuking those who worshipped him, he accepted it...which would be blasphemy had he not been worthy of it.

[JehovahsWitness]

I, for one, think that we can see clearly that Jesus is subordinate to Jehovah God, the Father. Jesus worships Him and indicates that everyone should do so.

That would all be a great point, if it weren't for the fact that we have Phil 2:5-9 which states that Jesus was in the form of God and thus temporary gave up his Godship,

That would be great except that even after his return to an elevated position in heaven as a mighty spirit Jesus is STILL shown to be subordinate to the Father.



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[JehovahsWitness]

1. How can Jesus share in the glory God had and has (John 17:5) if God shares His glory with no one (Isa 42:8)?

JOHN 17: 5

So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was

In what sense does YHWH not "share his glory"?

Glory in scripture refers to the name or reputation. Jehovah Himself is intricially glorious (worthy of honour) as the eternal and perfect Creator of all things (Rev 4:11). His not **sharing** HIS glory means that nobody equal his reputation as the Supreme ruler of the universe.

Does this mean that Jehovah cannot glorify someone else?

THE BIBLE speaks of God "glorifying" or giving kings, people cities even objects glory (Rev 21:11, 1 Cor 15:41; Isaiah 10:18 ). He does this by elevating their worth, notable by using them for His purpose; all the while preserving for himself his glory as the Creator.

To illustrate : A wealthy business man has unlimited income which he keeps in a bank. One account is reserved under his name but others He gifts to friends, associations, he uses to buy buildings, art and many other things.

In similar way, while there is glory that belongs to Jehovah alone, he can also give glory (glorify) others as he sees fit, including Jesus the son.

What glory did Jesus have?

Jesus said that previous to his time on earth he enjoyed glory. He did not say he enjoyed glory as the supreme ruler of the universe, or glory as Almighty God Himself, he simply said he had glory with / before / in his Father's presence. Jesus, as God's son and first creation reflects God's glory in that he is a representative of God (Heb 1:3)

Did Jesus not "share" God's Glory?

Some translations do refer to the glory Jesus "shared" with God or "the glory that he had with the Father" but none speak of them sharing God's glory or name as the Supreme ruler of the universe . Plus Jesus words do no do not say whose glory he shared. If someone says they shared or had a Pizza with the President can that not mean you shared your own with him rather he shared his with you? Further, did Jesus say the share was equal? Note 2 Thesselonians 2:14 says that Christ's brothers share in his glory; yet none of them can possibly claim equality with him (Jesus), much less claim the glory of God's firstborn (2 Pet 5:10b). Similarly, the Son "sharing" his own glory with the Father, does not mean he (Jesus) possessed the glory of the uncreated Almighty or that Jesus' glory was in equality to God's.

TRINITY 2023: viewtopic.php?p=1112469#p1112469

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