Christianity and Apopleptics

[Jax Agnesson]

I've spent a while in the last year or two exploring Christian discussion boards, and I note that homosexuality seems to provoke some of the most passionate division and debate.
Some Christians are fine with it, up to and including welcoming gay marriage, gay clergy, very positively.
Some Christians seem to go blue in the face at the very thought of two men twiddling with each other's naughty bits..
Others take varying attitudes between the two extremes.

I'm not here inviting yet another debate about the rights and wrongs of homosexuality per se, but asking (and this is my question for debate) why, of all the 'sins' Christians are not entirely agreed about, homosexuality provokes such strong reaction?

[Jax Agnesson]

Mention homosexuality, on which there is barely a mention in either the OT or NT, and suddenly all hell breaks loose. What's the big deal?

Have you asked the people on those sites that question?

Yep. Result? Rage and threats of Damnation. It's why God rained down fire on Sodom an Gomorrah... and yadda yadda. But no cogent discussion of the facts.

On this site, I have noticed that issues related to homosexuality are primarily introduced by those who are in favor of homosexual activity.

Could that be because the people opposed to homosexuality don't even want to talk about it?

It is interesting that even though it is Haven who introduced the idea of anger and unforgiveness as sin, it is Rkrause who was required to defend it.

Haven can handle his own arguments. As well you know!

The wording of the OP is rather interesting also.

Some Christians are fine with it, up to and including welcoming gay marriage, gay clergy, very positively.
Some Christians seem to go blue in the face at the very thought of two men twiddling with each other's naughty bits..
Others take varying attitudes between the two extremes.

Would the reaction have been different if it was worded as follows:

Some Christians are fine with two men twiddling with each other's naughty bits..
Some Christians seem to go blue in the face at the very thought of gay marriage and gay clergy.

Yep, that's equally valid. I was emphasising the perspective i wanted to emphasise. As one does in a debate.
Even fairer would have been
"Some people are OK about gay men doing their thang, some people hate it. What's that about?" Same question. But I'm interested in the range of Christian responses particularly, (from the perspective of Christian moralities, Christian theologies, and so forth,) and this being a Christian forum, y'know, I just felt I should put the question in terms that make clear the angle I was coming from.

[AquinasD]

I think a fair amount of it might be a reaction to widespread ridicule and consistently misinformed understandings of the issue which are latched onto by many Christians who have the sense that this is a "defining issue" but who otherwise lack any clear catechesis which would better ground their moral reasoning beyond "The Bible says it" or something like that. So you get a feedback loop on this issue, with those Christians being inclined to take a certain position about which they aren't educated, and opponents making this picture about what constitutes the Christian position on sexuality.

Then, when you do have a Christian with a better informed view who gets into this debate, he makes an argument that most opponents don't even know how to characterize or rebut, so they try to square them away as just another of the bad arguments, which can be a frightfully frustrating experience if you're the one who's argument is being given short shrift.

So you take an issue about which many people in the culture are passionate, add a healthy dose of consistent misinformation and a general lack of education to those who would defend the view, and you're bound to have discussions which are tense if not uncivil.

[Haven]

Haven can handle his own arguments. As well you know!

I don't think he was trying to insinuate that Rkrause was arguing for me. I simply touched on the issue of anger / unforgivness as sins, and Rkrause expanded upon it. It's cool .

[Burninglight]

Personally, I think it all boils down to bigotry, ignorance, and personal disgust. Homophobic people are disgusted by male homosexual sex (does anyone else notice how little lesbianism is mentioned on these topics? I don't think the reason is religious) and use religion in an attempt to justify their personal hatred of gay men. They also tend to buy into the myths surrounding gay promiscuity, AIDS, the "gay agenda," etc., which further fans the flames of prejudice.

It's not about "sin," as plenty of other "sins" (remarriage after divorce, adultery, anger, unforgiveness) almost never get mentioned by fundamnetalists. Homosexuality is in a class of its own, and it has little to do with the Bible.

People know anger, unforgiveness and adultery are sins. No one goes around promoting or advocating for things like theft, murder, adultery, anger and unforgiveness. It seems like you are comparing homosexuality to these other sins. At least you got this sin in the right catergory or you know that it is sin.

Some sins are seen for what they are. Others, however, are subtle and spread like a cancer on society. Just because someone calls homosexuality sin doesn't mean they are afraid of men or homophobic. You are confusing when people fear sinning against God with man being afraid of men! The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and knoweldge

Care to show a quote from the bible that says 'Anger is a sin'?
how about forgiveness.

anger can lead to sin.
Ephesians 4:26
“In your anger do not sin� : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,

Well, it says that anger can lead someone to sin.. so it's best not to be angry. However, that is different about being angry being a sin.

No forgiving someone is also a sin.
Matthew 18:34-35
New International Version (NIV)

34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.�

Well, it does appear that when it comes to 'fellow christians, this might be true.. but it does seem ironic, that God, who is put forth as the paramount of forgiveness, does not forgive either, but tortures instead.

Didn't Jesus say if you're angry at your brother for no reason you are in danger of hell fire? I think one can infer from that it would have to be a sin in that case.

[Goat]

Personally, I think it all boils down to bigotry, ignorance, and personal disgust. Homophobic people are disgusted by male homosexual sex (does anyone else notice how little lesbianism is mentioned on these topics? I don't think the reason is religious) and use religion in an attempt to justify their personal hatred of gay men. They also tend to buy into the myths surrounding gay promiscuity, AIDS, the "gay agenda," etc., which further fans the flames of prejudice.

It's not about "sin," as plenty of other "sins" (remarriage after divorce, adultery, anger, unforgiveness) almost never get mentioned by fundamnetalists. Homosexuality is in a class of its own, and it has little to do with the Bible.

People know anger, unforgiveness and adultery are sins. No one goes around promoting or advocating for things like theft, murder, adultery, anger and unforgiveness. It seems like you are comparing homosexuality to these other sins. At least you got this sin in the right catergory or you know that it is sin.

Some sins are seen for what they are. Others, however, are subtle and spread like a cancer on society. Just because someone calls homosexuality sin doesn't mean they are afraid of men or homophobic. You are confusing when people fear sinning against God with man being afraid of men! The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom and knoweldge

Care to show a quote from the bible that says 'Anger is a sin'?
how about forgiveness.

anger can lead to sin.
Ephesians 4:26
“In your anger do not sin� : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry,

Well, it says that anger can lead someone to sin.. so it's best not to be angry. However, that is different about being angry being a sin.

No forgiving someone is also a sin.
Matthew 18:34-35
New International Version (NIV)

34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.�

Well, it does appear that when it comes to 'fellow christians, this might be true.. but it does seem ironic, that God, who is put forth as the paramount of forgiveness, does not forgive either, but tortures instead.

Didn't Jesus say if you're angry at your brother for no reason you are in danger of hell fire? I think one can infer from that it would have to be a sin in that case.

Well, you will be in DANGER of being judged.. .. Being in danger is not doing the deed.

And it's calling your brother a FOOL. .. not being angry at him. Sounds like it is the actions that might come along with the anger that is the sin.

[KCKID]

Jax, the fundamentalist mindset is not based upon reason or rationality, but a dogmatic commitment to the text of the Bible, which they view as the "verbally inspired, inerrant, infallible word of God." In other words, if the Bible says it, evangelicals see it as the final, unquestionable authority, and in their minds, it is not up for debate. If the Bible said walking on two legs was wrong, fundamentalists would hop on one foot without question.

For traditionalist Catholics, substitute "the Magisterium" for the Bible, but the same principle applies.

I know, Haven. I do visit an evangelical site, (where the denizens are surprisingly friendly and polite to me) and you describe their position well. Whatever the Bible says is true, and that's that. But I am trying to get some of them to open up about why, of all the things they believe about Scripture, homosexuality is the one they most regularly get passionate about, without being able to present a single bit of evidence, or any supporting ethical argument, outside of "God says it's bad".
For example I recently joined in a discussion about shops and gas stations trading on a Sunday. There was a range of opinion, and the debate got a little heated, but after all, their God set this one in stone for them "Remember that thou keep Holy the Sabbath day!" Stiil the discussion remained within bounds, (or 'irenic' as they're fond of saying on that particular site) and included consideration of workers' rights, and consumerism, and so forth. And no-one started foaming at the mouth.
Mention homosexuality, on which there is barely a mention in either the OT or NT, and suddenly all hell breaks loose. What's the big deal?

Interesting thread involving a question I too have asked many times. Unfortunately, a logical answer to the question will not happen any time soon. However, lest I be accused of having a one-track mind re this issue, I'll briefly digress from the topic at hand and say that Sunday is not and never has been 'the Sabbath' of the 4th-command.

[The Nice Centurion]

I think there are several reasons.

Christianity seems to be focused on the idea that the world is getting worse and worse and thus make way for the need for the second coming. However, all statistics show the world living longer, having fewer children lower murder rates and higher happiness. So to maintain the view the world is getting worse, something must be pointed to and claim that this is bad. I think sex and sexuality are the main targets of this. But the goalpost has move far beyond single parents, interracial marriage, artificial insemination and one of the few places of traction is in homosexuality.

Another reason is Christians have no reason to argue over something noncontroversial. So there is not a huge debate on bestiality, pedophilia (coverups are a different issue), or rape even though they oppose all of these. The first place they do get push back is homosexuality.

I think the number one reason people are against gay marriage is they find homosexuality icky.

I think it is also human nature to try to group up and see other groups as bad.

I suspect another thing; The Homosexualist problem is the one that concerns grown men the most, because it is ABOUT grown men.

And christianity is highly patriachal. But bestiality, pedophilia, rape neednt concern a Patriarchate (Thats the christian way of thinking), nor female christian grownups that much.