Persecution; what it is, what it is not

[cnorman18]

A little clarity is in order here, I think.

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Having others openly disagree with one's views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from forcing others to follow one's own views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Not having one's own views or beliefs held to be superior to, or held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from falsifying or misrepresenting the arguments of those with whom one disagrees is NOT persecution.

Being held to the same standards of behavior as everyone else is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for contemptuously disparaging the views or beliefs of others is NOT persecution.

Having others refuse to accept, or even listen to, one's arguments for one's own views and beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for uttering threats or predictions of dire consequences, directed at those who do not accept or listen to one's views or beliefs, is NOT persecution.

On the other hand...

Preventing or attempting to prevent others from expressing views that differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution.

Falsifying or misrepresenting the views of others IS persecution.

Holding others to standards of behavior not expected of everyone IS persecution.

Contemptuously disparaging the beliefs and views of others because they differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Uttering threats, or making predictions of dire consequences, directed at others who do not share one’s own beliefs and views IS persecution.

-----

It's a pretty simple rule, really. If you don't want it done to you, you don't do it to others.

Edit: If anyone here thinks that these remarks are intended to address fundamentalists only -- that person would be wrong.

[cnorman18]

...I have a rather narrower standard of what persecution is than do you, I think. Words alone don't quite reach it--unless they are very loud, overwhelm any other voices, and threaten later realized action.

Of course I have a different standard on what constitutes persecution. I'm a Jew. The Holocaust started with words -- articles and speeches and cartoons and the like that others shrugged off as merely unpleasant, uncomfortable and irritating. Misrepresenting the beliefs and actions of Jews, for instance; claims of Blood Libel, of worldwide conspiracy, of nefarious plotting, financial shenanigans, desecration of the Host, and so on. Just words....

<snip to end>

I understand the idea. I'm a Mormon. Now what that means is....not a whole lot, except that we do understand the idea of persecution.

Not to the extent that Jews have, by any means, nor do I pretend to...but we do understand pogroms and diasporas. This is why I included the bolded and italicized words above.

Words without action are not persecution. Bigotry and stupidity? Oh, yes. However, it is only when the words prompt to action that they reach the level of persecution, IMO.

...and we fight words with words, misinformation with information, lies with truth, idiocy with patienc...ok, I don't deal with idiots patiently. IT's a flaw. I try, though.

LOL! I have an advantage there. I used to teach middle school...

I see your points, all of them. I'm just wary of complacency. That way lies the gas chambers -- or Haun's Hill.

[Moses Yoder]

A little clarity is in order here, I think.

-----

Having others openly disagree with one's views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from forcing others to follow one's own views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Not having one's own views or beliefs held to be superior to, or held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from falsifying or misrepresenting the arguments of those with whom one disagrees is NOT persecution.

Being held to the same standards of behavior as everyone else is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for contemptuously disparaging the views or beliefs of others is NOT persecution.

Having others refuse to accept, or even listen to, one's arguments for one's own views and beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for uttering threats or predictions of dire consequences, directed at those who do not accept or listen to one's views or beliefs, is NOT persecution.

On the other hand...

Preventing or attempting to prevent others from expressing views that differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution.

Falsifying or misrepresenting the views of others IS persecution.

Holding others to standards of behavior not expected of everyone IS persecution.

Contemptuously disparaging the beliefs and views of others because they differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Uttering threats, or making predictions of dire consequences, directed at others who do not share one’s own beliefs and views IS persecution.

-----

It's a pretty simple rule, really. If you don't want it done to you, you don't do it to others.

Edit: If anyone here thinks that these remarks are intended to address fundamentalists only -- that person would be wrong.

The above things are unpleasant. They are uncomfortable. They are irritating.

But they are not persecution, except for those items that include things done to people by force of law or...just force.

For instance: invading a community, kidnapping all the women and children, separating the children from their parents and placing those children in situations far more dangerous than the ones they were 'rescued' from....because the invaders didn't like the religion...that's persecution.

Making Jews wear yellow stars of David so that they will be easier to spot and put on trains to Dachau...that's persecution.

Putting people in jail because they are pacifists and won't submit to a draft...that's persecution.

Forcing churches to not only pay for, but actually dispense, products that are against their doctrine....that's persecution.

Blocking the entrance to religious meeting places so that worshipers cannot enter, while mocking their beliefs and sacred objects....yeah, that's persecution.

Sending an army after a religious group because the leaders don't like the religious beliefs of the target? that's persecution.

Beheading heretics. Crucifying believers. Stuff like that.

I have a rather narrower standard of what persecution is than do you, I think. Words alone don't quite reach it--unless they are very loud, overwhelm any other voices, and threaten later realized action.

Of course I have a different standard on what constitutes persecution. I'm a Jew. The Holocaust started with words -- articles and speeches and cartoons and the like that others shrugged off as merely unpleasant, uncomfortable and irritating. Misrepresenting the beliefs and actions of Jews, for instance; claims of Blood Libel, of worldwide conspiracy, of nefarious plotting, financial shenanigans, desecration of the Host, and so on. Just words....

Then it moved to boycotts and demonstrations and more speeches and cartoons and propaganda. Then to petty regulations and rules: preventing Jews from entering certain professions, holding office... Holding them to different standards. Baby steps, Increments. Fostering hatred and/or apathy on everyone's part.

And then came the Night of Broken Glass...

Do you fight persecution when it begins, or wait till it's too late? Those are your choices. History has proven it, over and over.

To fight persecution would be persecution. In Germany during Hitler's time Hitler and his followers thought the Jews should be exterminated. The Jews disagreed. If the Jews attempted to force their view point onto the Germans, they would have been persecuting the Germans according to your definition of persecution. To your way of thinking as posted in the OP, they would have been better people if they simply had not resisted. So the question of resisting before or after is a moot point; tthe question is whether to resist.

[Moses Yoder]

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Here you have written a post in an attempt to force your view of what persecution is and is not onto others, saying that it is persecution to do so.

Ah, yes. "Intolerance of intolerance is itself intolerance." IOW, "we must embrace and accept the bigots and bullies among us or else become bigots and bullies ourselves."

Phfft. I was stating my opinions, and nothing more.

There are ways to word things in such a manner as to come across as an opinion, in my opinion. Your OP comes across more like a manifesto than an opinion. But then that may be just my view.

[dianaiad]

LOL! I have an advantage there. I used to teach middle school...

All middle school and high school teachers should be given triple raises and combat pay. I know. I am one. ....but I'm a coward; I teach online.

I see your points, all of them. I'm just wary of complacency. That way lies the gas chambers -- or Haun's Hill.

Indeed...and if you pick on a group too long and too hard, you get the Mossad (don't get me wrong; I'm a fan) ...and Mountain Meadows; the Mossad is a well thought out and intelligent response to persecution, and the other? Panic and knee jerk response; people who have been pushed too far will snap and do unto others as others did unto them---and not consider whether the ones they are about to 'do to,' were the ones guilty of the 'doing' in the first place.

Persecution isn't good for either the 'done to' or the 'doers.'

[cnorman18]

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Here you have written a post in an attempt to force your view of what persecution is and is not onto others, saying that it is persecution to do so.

Ah, yes. "Intolerance of intolerance is itself intolerance." IOW, "we must embrace and accept the bigots and bullies among us or else become bigots and bullies ourselves."

Phfft. I was stating my opinions, and nothing more.

There are ways to word things in such a manner as to come across as an opinion, in my opinion. Your OP comes across more like a manifesto than an opinion. But then that may be just my view.

Since I have now clarified that matter, I presume the subject is closed.

[St. Anger]

A little clarity is in order here, I think.

-----

Having others openly disagree with one's views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from forcing others to follow one's own views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Not having one's own views or beliefs held to be superior to, or held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from falsifying or misrepresenting the arguments of those with whom one disagrees is NOT persecution.

Being held to the same standards of behavior as everyone else is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for contemptuously disparaging the views or beliefs of others is NOT persecution.

Having others refuse to accept, or even listen to, one's arguments for one's own views and beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for uttering threats or predictions of dire consequences, directed at those who do not accept or listen to one's views or beliefs, is NOT persecution.

On the other hand...

Preventing or attempting to prevent others from expressing views that differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution.

Falsifying or misrepresenting the views of others IS persecution.

Holding others to standards of behavior not expected of everyone IS persecution.

Contemptuously disparaging the beliefs and views of others because they differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Uttering threats, or making predictions of dire consequences, directed at others who do not share one’s own beliefs and views IS persecution.

-----

It's a pretty simple rule, really. If you don't want it done to you, you don't do it to others.

Edit: If anyone here thinks that these remarks are intended to address fundamentalists only -- that person would be wrong.

I think you're right. But uh, what's the debate topic?

[cnorman18]

A little clarity is in order here, I think.

-----

Having others openly disagree with one's views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from forcing others to follow one's own views or beliefs is NOT persecution.

Not having one's own views or beliefs held to be superior to, or held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others is NOT persecution.

Being prevented from falsifying or misrepresenting the arguments of those with whom one disagrees is NOT persecution.

Being held to the same standards of behavior as everyone else is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for contemptuously disparaging the views or beliefs of others is NOT persecution.

Having others refuse to accept, or even listen to, one's arguments for one's own views and beliefs is NOT persecution.

Being criticized for uttering threats or predictions of dire consequences, directed at those who do not accept or listen to one's views or beliefs, is NOT persecution.

On the other hand...

Preventing or attempting to prevent others from expressing views that differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Imposing or forcing one’s own views and beliefs upon others who do not share them IS persecution.

Insisting that one’s own views are superior to, or should be held in greater esteem or respect than, those of others IS persecution.

Falsifying or misrepresenting the views of others IS persecution.

Holding others to standards of behavior not expected of everyone IS persecution.

Contemptuously disparaging the beliefs and views of others because they differ from one’s own IS persecution.

Uttering threats, or making predictions of dire consequences, directed at others who do not share one’s own beliefs and views IS persecution.

-----

It's a pretty simple rule, really. If you don't want it done to you, you don't do it to others.

Edit: If anyone here thinks that these remarks are intended to address fundamentalists only -- that person would be wrong.

I think you're right. But uh, what's the debate topic?

Oops. Point taken. Again...

[AquinasD]

"Making predictions of dire consequences..."

That's not persecution. If I tell you that crossing the road without looking both ways could lead to great personal harm, that isn't persecution. Likewise, if I tell you that implementing socialism in a country will lead to widespread poverty and degradation, that also isn't persecution.

That, and OP is awfully smug.

Note: Lack of comment on other articles implies neither agreement nor disagreement by myself.

[cnorman18]

"Making predictions of dire consequences..."

That's not persecution. If I tell you that crossing the road without looking both ways could lead to great personal harm, that isn't persecution. Likewise, if I tell you that implementing socialism in a country will lead to widespread poverty and degradation, that also isn't persecution.

That, and OP is awfully smug.

Note: Lack of comment on other articles implies neither agreement nor disagreement by myself.

I was speaking, of course, of threats relating to one's beliefs, e.g. Hell, not "If you step in that open manhole..."

And I have already admitted that I overstated my case.

[The Nice Centurion]

[Replying to cnorman18 in post #1]
First and foremost; THE MYTH OF PERSECUTION
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Persecution
is an invented christian propaganda vehicle fine tuned to perfection. But in modern times it fails more and more.

For example:
Neronian persecution never existed.

Bringing Arsonist mass murderers to justice is not persecution.

The emperor Nero wouldnt even have known what a christian is if Jack Chick handed him a tract texted in latin.
This jewish sect was not distinguished yet from other jews.