Is this true? One doesn't have to believe in the trinity to be saved?The Tanager wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 4:28 pmNo, I’m saying the complete opposite. I’m explicitly saying one doesn’t have to have the correct/true view of God’s nature (trinitarian or not) to be saved. I’m saying one can be wrong about the trinity and still be saved.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:40 pm"Correct view" you say. Clear this up for me. You mean one must believe in the basic belief of the trinity to be saved right?
You Don't Need to Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?
Moderator: Moderators
-
2timothy316
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4217
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 178 times
- Been thanked: 465 times
You Don't Need to Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?
Post #1-
myth-one.com
- Savant
- Posts: 7161
- Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
- Has thanked: 31 times
- Been thanked: 87 times
- Contact:
Re: You Don't Need to Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?
Post #21The Kingdom of God cometh not with observance: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21)
-
konagold3
- Student
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2024 9:58 pm
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 6 times
Re: You Don't Need to Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?
Post #22[Replying to myth-one.com in post #19]
Aloha myth-one.com
Again Mahalo for the reply!
You write : "All scripture is given by inspiration of God...(II Timothy 3:16)
But you seem to claim otherwise. Was anything written by by Paul inspired of God?"
Paul acknowledged instances where he was not 'inspired by God' :
1 Corinthians 7 6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
2 Corinthians 8:8 (KJV) I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others,
The II Timothy quote was written by Paul, which would be narcissistically biased were he including his own writings even tho he states some of what he wrote was not inspired by God.
In context at the time he wrote the words "all scripture", [to Paul, a Jew, a Pharisee, a convert to belief writing in the first century], actually refers to, what we call, 2000 years later, the Old Testament the books of Moses included.
Most of Paul's writings were letters to several early Christian congregations meant to be inspirational Paul most certainly did not consider his own writings to be scripture at THAT time .
His writings were collected and deemed scripture many years later and also not written in Hebrew or Aramaic but in Greek.
Books were rare and precious [scrolls of animal hide parchment or papyrus which were laboriously copied by scribes as most folks could neither read or write only about 3% of Jews were literate in Paul's time.
As a 'religious zealot' Pharisee Saul[Paul] a member of the [ by several years ] post resurrection Sanhedrin he approved the stoning of Stephen.
As to "Was anything written by by Paul inspired of God?"
Yes.
You write first quoting me:
konagold3 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 1:45 am
The rather morbid and negative assertion that Jesus died for the sins of man dilutes and to some degree obscures and deviates from the much more positive and more glorious fact that Jesus LIVES that we may not only love but have abundant life.
Amen to that! We are not saved by any human sacrifice. Being a man, Jesus' first death was mandatory:
And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)
If He had no choice but to die His first death, then His first death saved no one.
Perhaps Paul being a convert [AD33] after the Crucifixion [AD30] and not having actually sat at Jesus feet or ever heard Him speak mistook the meaning of Jesus life and mission and resurrection and taxed the Son's previously freely given for the obeisance to two commandments eternal life with Saul[Paul]'s theory of atonement .
Before and after His mortal life as Jesus, the Son of God exist with God Our Father and the Eternal Infinite Spirit in eternal life.
In His earthly nativity, life, ministry, and resurrection, Jesus the Son of God reveled God to mankind!!
and
by the life He lived the Son of man revealed a perfected man to God!!
In revealing God to man Jesus does not call forth Jehovah from near by Mt Sinai rather He introduces God to mankind in teaching us to pray TO "Our Father" in Heaven
God IS love !!
God loves each of us!!!
The Kingdom of God is within because when we pray to Our Father in private we commune with Him in our heart mind and spirit .
The Kingdom of God is within because that is the only place where each and any individual can find Him.
When one finds God within one is actually in the Kingdom of God which is why Jesus pointed out the Kingdoms location as being within so God can be found.
At the time of the Resurrection, to the apostles the FACT that Jesus LIVES was the BIG news
The Good News Jesus taught that God loves us, and that we are sons and daughters of Our Father got diminished to a secondary status of lessor importance
The Gospel of the Kingdom of God that Jesus taught the Apostles to go door to door proclaiming became secondary tp Paul's atonement theory, the idea that God is so cold and austere that His tender mercies and forgiveness for the sins of Adam were not forthcoming until He saw His blameless Son crucified on the cross of Calgary;
What a travesty on the face of God, who IS love, to be so mischaracterized as as grudge carrying vengeful wrathful and petty.
Such is more the attributes of a tyrannical earthly king than Our Loving Heavenly Father.
Perhaps Paul, the religious zealot Pharisee, who once condemned Stephen to stoning, had the wrong idea of who God is as revealed by Jesus.
Perhaps the Message the Gospel that Jesus commanded be proclaimed has been benched by a 'uninspired by God' atonement doctrine??
"Put Christ BACK In Christianity
• Love God
• Love Your Neighbor As You Do Yourself
• Forgive 70 x 7
• Whoever Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone
• Treat Others The Way You Want To Be Treated
• Feed The Hungry
• Don’t Return Evil For Evil
• Visit Those In Prison
• Clothe The Naked
• House The Homeless
• Welcome The Foreigner
• Don’t Judge
• Care For The Sick
• Love One Another As I Have Loved You"
Aloha myth-one.com
Again Mahalo for the reply!
You write : "All scripture is given by inspiration of God...(II Timothy 3:16)
But you seem to claim otherwise. Was anything written by by Paul inspired of God?"
Paul acknowledged instances where he was not 'inspired by God' :
1 Corinthians 7 6But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
2 Corinthians 8:8 (KJV) I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others,
The II Timothy quote was written by Paul, which would be narcissistically biased were he including his own writings even tho he states some of what he wrote was not inspired by God.
In context at the time he wrote the words "all scripture", [to Paul, a Jew, a Pharisee, a convert to belief writing in the first century], actually refers to, what we call, 2000 years later, the Old Testament the books of Moses included.
Most of Paul's writings were letters to several early Christian congregations meant to be inspirational Paul most certainly did not consider his own writings to be scripture at THAT time .
His writings were collected and deemed scripture many years later and also not written in Hebrew or Aramaic but in Greek.
Books were rare and precious [scrolls of animal hide parchment or papyrus which were laboriously copied by scribes as most folks could neither read or write only about 3% of Jews were literate in Paul's time.
As a 'religious zealot' Pharisee Saul[Paul] a member of the [ by several years ] post resurrection Sanhedrin he approved the stoning of Stephen.
As to "Was anything written by by Paul inspired of God?"
Yes.
You write first quoting me:
konagold3 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 1:45 am
The rather morbid and negative assertion that Jesus died for the sins of man dilutes and to some degree obscures and deviates from the much more positive and more glorious fact that Jesus LIVES that we may not only love but have abundant life.
Amen to that! We are not saved by any human sacrifice. Being a man, Jesus' first death was mandatory:
And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (Hebrews 9:27)
If He had no choice but to die His first death, then His first death saved no one.
Perhaps Paul being a convert [AD33] after the Crucifixion [AD30] and not having actually sat at Jesus feet or ever heard Him speak mistook the meaning of Jesus life and mission and resurrection and taxed the Son's previously freely given for the obeisance to two commandments eternal life with Saul[Paul]'s theory of atonement .
Before and after His mortal life as Jesus, the Son of God exist with God Our Father and the Eternal Infinite Spirit in eternal life.
In His earthly nativity, life, ministry, and resurrection, Jesus the Son of God reveled God to mankind!!
and
by the life He lived the Son of man revealed a perfected man to God!!
In revealing God to man Jesus does not call forth Jehovah from near by Mt Sinai rather He introduces God to mankind in teaching us to pray TO "Our Father" in Heaven
God IS love !!
God loves each of us!!!
The Kingdom of God is within because when we pray to Our Father in private we commune with Him in our heart mind and spirit .
The Kingdom of God is within because that is the only place where each and any individual can find Him.
When one finds God within one is actually in the Kingdom of God which is why Jesus pointed out the Kingdoms location as being within so God can be found.
At the time of the Resurrection, to the apostles the FACT that Jesus LIVES was the BIG news
The Good News Jesus taught that God loves us, and that we are sons and daughters of Our Father got diminished to a secondary status of lessor importance
The Gospel of the Kingdom of God that Jesus taught the Apostles to go door to door proclaiming became secondary tp Paul's atonement theory, the idea that God is so cold and austere that His tender mercies and forgiveness for the sins of Adam were not forthcoming until He saw His blameless Son crucified on the cross of Calgary;
What a travesty on the face of God, who IS love, to be so mischaracterized as as grudge carrying vengeful wrathful and petty.
Such is more the attributes of a tyrannical earthly king than Our Loving Heavenly Father.
Perhaps Paul, the religious zealot Pharisee, who once condemned Stephen to stoning, had the wrong idea of who God is as revealed by Jesus.
Perhaps the Message the Gospel that Jesus commanded be proclaimed has been benched by a 'uninspired by God' atonement doctrine??
"Put Christ BACK In Christianity
• Love God
• Love Your Neighbor As You Do Yourself
• Forgive 70 x 7
• Whoever Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone
• Treat Others The Way You Want To Be Treated
• Feed The Hungry
• Don’t Return Evil For Evil
• Visit Those In Prison
• Clothe The Naked
• House The Homeless
• Welcome The Foreigner
• Don’t Judge
• Care For The Sick
• Love One Another As I Have Loved You"
-
bob the baptist
- Student
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:53 pm
- Been thanked: 1 time
Re: You Don't Need to Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?
Post #23I'm not answering a question with a question, I'm just asking if a trinitarian worships the same God as one who is not a trinitarian? It would be like asking, can a Muslim go to Heaven? I could see a person being saved who did not understand nuances of the Holy Spirit, or did not have certain knowledge of Jesus. i.e. a new Christian or an immature Christian may not understand or have even considered the trinitarian concept. But one who truly and knowingly denies Jesus as God, or that the Holy Spirit is only "the power of God", I don't think they worship the same God. In that case, I think the answer to your question is, false. No bible verse of support would be necessary in this case as we would be arguing apples and oranges, unarguable questions; such as, is the watchtower a Christian organization. All can claim whatever but part of the gospel of Christ is that God came to Earth as a human (Immanuel).2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 4:32 pmIs this true? One doesn't have to believe in the trinity to be saved?The Tanager wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 4:28 pmNo, I’m saying the complete opposite. I’m explicitly saying one doesn’t have to have the correct/true view of God’s nature (trinitarian or not) to be saved. I’m saying one can be wrong about the trinity and still be saved.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:40 pm"Correct view" you say. Clear this up for me. You mean one must believe in the basic belief of the trinity to be saved right?
Last edited by bob the baptist on Mon Apr 29, 2024 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
2timothy316
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4217
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 178 times
- Been thanked: 465 times
Re: You Don't Need to Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?
Post #24What are the answers to your own questions.bob the baptist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 8:27 amI'm not answering a question with a question, I'm just asking if a trinitarian worships the same God as one who is not a trinitarian? It would be like asking, can a Muslim go to Heaven?2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 4:32 pmIs this true? One doesn't have to believe in the trinity to be saved?The Tanager wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 4:28 pmNo, I’m saying the complete opposite. I’m explicitly saying one doesn’t have to have the correct/true view of God’s nature (trinitarian or not) to be saved. I’m saying one can be wrong about the trinity and still be saved.2timothy316 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 3:40 pm"Correct view" you say. Clear this up for me. You mean one must believe in the basic belief of the trinity to be saved right?
-
onewithhim
- Savant
- Posts: 9109
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
- Location: Norwich, CT
- Has thanked: 1243 times
- Been thanked: 319 times
Re: You Don't Need to Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?
Post #25The Pharisees were there listening. Would Jesus say that THEY had the Kingdom within them? Not hardly. Jesus simply meant that he was there in their midst, the King of that Kingdom.myth-one.com wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 2:52 pm
The Kingdom of God cometh not with observance: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21)
The NASB puts it this way: "...Behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
-
2timothy316
- Under Probation
- Posts: 4217
- Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
- Has thanked: 178 times
- Been thanked: 465 times
Re: You Don't Need to Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?
Post #26In your opinion, one that willingly and knowing denies Jesus as God will not be saved. Thanks for your input. Quite different from your fellow trinitarians.bob the baptist wrote: ↑Mon Apr 29, 2024 8:27 am But one who truly and knowingly denies Jesus as God, or that the Holy Spirit is only "the power of God", I don't think they worship the same God. In that case, I think the answer to your question is, false.
