The Fall!

[POI]

Otseng stated "Yes, I believe the fall is a thing. As for why, it is out of scope for the current discussion, but can be addressed later."

Your wish has been granted.

For debate: Outside the claim being made from an ancient human writing, why is the assertion of 'the fall' a real thing?

[TRANSPONDER]

Only when Christians and Muslims stop telling their children that there is a god that loves them so much as to send them to a heaven, but hates the other so much as to send them to a hell

When it stops being true, then we (Christians) will stop telling them.

will we ever stop the violence and bloodshed caused by these religions.

When you pray for rain, you gotta deal with the mud too.

Humans can choose to be a part of the problem or a part of the solution.
The division and suffering caused by most religious/god concepts is disgusting. More so for any religion that claims to be based in love.

Love?

John 15:13

"There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends".

Sounds foolishness?

1 Corin 1:18

18 "The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction.

But other eligions think their religions are true, too, and will not stop telling you. And the debate here is about why Christians are right and they are wrong.

When you prayy for rain, you gotta deal with the mud? Clever. But it translates as ' When you bring religious conflict, you gotta deal with the collateral damage.

Answer, no religious conflict. We got enough mud in the world to deal with.


Lay down one's life? A better use of the life is to say 'Friends, there is nothing worth giving and taking life for, here'. I can think of no worse reason to lay down one's life or take that of others for than religious differences, and I sometimes think there has been no greater cause of doing do than religious differences.

Crusades, Jihads, pogroms, inquisitions. Up there with politics, as the biggest cause of wars on the planet, and all for a bunch of myths.

[POI]

[Replying to SiNcE_1985 in post #250]

Post 246? Were you planning on responding to it?

[SiNcE_1985]

But other eligions think their religions are true , too, and will not stop telling you

It is less about what people think, and more about what people can prove.

. And the debate here is about why Christians are right and they are wrong.

Instead of telling you why they are wrong, I'll tell you why Christianity is right.

Christianity has the most historical evidence supporting it.

When you prayy for rain, you gotta deal with the mud? Clever. But it translates as ' When you bring religious conflict, you gotta deal with the collateral damage.

Well, I guess people tend to take their religions seriously.

Answer, no religious conflict. We got enough mud in the world to deal with.

I agree.

Lay down one's life? A better use of the life is to say 'Friends, there is nothing worth giving and taking life for, here'. I can think of no worse reason to lay down one's life or take that of others for than religious differences, and I sometimes think there has been no greater cause of doing do than religious differences.

Look at it this way...

You are at an authentic Italian restaurant...and you are either drunk or foolish enough to run up a expensive tab full of food and drinks.

When you are hit with the bill, you are unable to pay it.

The restaurant is run by the mob, some of whom is in attendance at the restaurant that night.

They come to your table and surround you and say "this is gonna cost you, buddy. Come with us".

Right before they take you away, the waiter approaches your table.

Waiter: Excuse me, sirs. But that gentleman (Jesus) sitting at the table with 12 guests (the disciples) have covered his bill.

You look at Jesus' table and he lifts up his glass of wine to you and nods his head.

Mob guy: Oh, it looks like your debt has been covered. Dont let it happen again.

You go to Jesus' table and you thank him for his grace.

Jesus: No problem, friend.
.....

Crusades, Jihads, pogroms, inquisitions. Up there with politics, as the biggest cause of wars on the planet, and all for a bunch of myths.

Yeah, sometimes religious followers give the religions a bad name.

[SiNcE_1985]

Your question continues to be irrelevant. See below.

Wait a minute, so me asking you to define a concept that YOU brought up is irrelevant?

Hahahahaha.

Then Adam/Eve are held culpable for something for which they were not yet aware of....

Yet, the fact that they didn't eat the fruit (yet) based on God's commandment not to eat it (according to Eve), demonstrated their awareness.

They were not yet aware of God's actual standard, so how would they know? God tells them to do something, but Adam/Eve did not yet know that disobeying God would be considered wrong. Why? Because they had not yet eaten from the tree of knowledge, pertaining to "good and evil". They did not yet know that disobeying a direct order from God is 'evil'. So evil in fact, that God cursed all of humanity yet to come. You know, with the painful child births and all that jazz.

God's standard: Don't eat the fruit. (Gen 2:16-17)

Eve: God said don't eat the fruit .(Gen 3:2-3)

Seems like there was some "knowing" going on there.

Dude, you are reaching.

This is sensationalism at it's finest...POI style.

I would if so many people did not actually believe this stuff. I mean, if we were speaking about the veracity of Thor, you may have some kind of a point. I know of virtually no one inside, or outside my circle, who believes in this particular god.

Yeah, just like so many people believe in this idea that mindless and blind processes (evolution) can have inanimate matter come to life and begin to talk, think, and have sex...and all the other jazz that comes with it.

I don't see you exerting any energy towards that.

[TRANSPONDER]

But other eligions think their religions are true , too, and will not stop telling you

It is less about what people think, and more about what people can prove.

. And the debate here is about why Christians are right and they are wrong.

Instead of telling you why they are wrong, I'll tell you why Christianity is right.

Christianity has the most historical evidence supporting it.

When you prayy for rain, you gotta deal with the mud? Clever. But it translates as ' When you bring religious conflict, you gotta deal with the collateral damage.

Well, I guess people tend to take their religions seriously.

Answer, no religious conflict. We got enough mud in the world to deal with.

I agree.

Lay down one's life? A better use of the life is to say 'Friends, there is nothing worth giving and taking life for, here'. I can think of no worse reason to lay down one's life or take that of others for than religious differences, and I sometimes think there has been no greater cause of doing do than religious differences.

Look at it this way...

You are at an authentic Italian restaurant...and you are either drunk or foolish enough to run up a expensive tab full of food and drinks.

When you are hit with the bill, you are unable to pay it.

The restaurant is run by the mob, some of whom is in attendance at the restaurant that night.

They come to your table and surround you and say "this is gonna cost you, buddy. Come with us".

Right before they take you away, the waiter approaches your table.

Waiter: Excuse me, sirs. But that gentleman (Jesus) sitting at the table with 12 guests (the disciples) have covered his bill.

You look at Jesus' table and he lifts up his glass of wine to you and nods his head.

Mob guy: Oh, it looks like your debt has been covered. Dont let it happen again.

You go to Jesus' table and you thank him for his grace.

Jesus: No problem, friend.
.....

Crusades, Jihads, pogroms, inquisitions. Up there with politics, as the biggest cause of wars on the planet, and all for a bunch of myths.

Yeah, sometimes religious followers give the religions a bad name.

I agree it (the best case) is not shown by what people Think (Faith) but what they can prove, or make the best case for as (axiomatically) nothing is 100% sure.

It is often claimed that Christianity is best supported by history, but really, it isn't. The Flavian Testimony in Josephus is known for sure to be part forgery. On examination, it is arguably ALL forgery. Tacitus is just repeating what he heard, not what he knows like from Roman records, or he'd know that Pilate was Prefect, not procurator. Suetonius is probably not talking about Jesus at all but a Jewish agitator with the not uncommon name 'Chrestus'. The rest counts for nothing. Cite any of them. Pliny, Bar- Serapeon, Phlegthon. Not Philo though He mentions Pilate, but not a word about Jesus.

Mind, I do think there was a real Jesus, but he was nothing like the Christian re-invention of him, and the resurrection is simply invented.

And the thing is, if historical support was what made for a religion, why not LDS or Scientology? We know what Joseph Smith and Ron Hubbard looked like (there is a case that we have a photo of Smith). And I'm at least as confident that the Muhammad of the Quran was a sight more like the actual one than gospel Jesus is like the real one. No, Christianity is not the best supported by history.

Your nice little analogy left a lot out. It is actually Jesus who owns the restaurant and you have to eat there whether you like it or not (or in an Indian, Thai or Lerbanese restaurant where you get leaned on). You get the bill.

"But that's twenty times more than the menu said, and i only got half what I ordered."

"God owns the place, He can do as he likes"

"What if I don't pay?"

"We burn you alive. But worry not, the boss will excuse you paying."

"That's very nice of him"

"You just become his slave, body and soul."

But I worry not because analogies prove nothing if the whole thing is not true. But the point is that the claim of free forgiveness is a sham.

"Knock knock"

"Who's there?"

"Jesus, your savior."

"What do you want?"

"To save you."

"From what?"

"from what I'm going to do to you if you don't let me in."

Jesus is not saving you from the Mob; he is the Mob.

Ah. so everything good; credit the religion...oh, sorry, Christianity, not the others. Anything bad, blame men.

Men have to take responsibility for the evil they do, and so does religion. Including the evil that religion may do that otherwise would just be down to politics or boundary disputes.

[POI]

God's standard: Don't eat the fruit. (Gen 2:16-17)

Eve: God said don't eat the fruit .(Gen 3:2-3)

Seems like there was some "knowing" going on there.

Dude, you are reaching.

No, you are avoiding. Genesis 3:7 states that "then their eyes were opened". Before eating of this fruit, they were not. Why would God hold them accountable if they lacked having 'open eyes'?

I don't see you exerting any energy towards that.

Right, because no one I know believes in Thor. I'm challenging the belief(s), for which I am not in agreement with, in this debate forum.

[SiNcE_1985]

No, you are avoiding. Genesis 3:7 states that "then their eyes were opened". Before eating of this fruit, they were not. Why would God hold them accountable if they lacked having 'open eyes'?

Um, usually the shame/guilt comes AFTER (analogous with their eyes being open after they disobeyed God) you've committed the act of which you are now shameful and guilty about.

I don't see why you feel as if you are letting this big cat out of bag with some groundbreaking discovery in Genesis.

Making a big fuss out of absolutely NOTHING, is what you continue to do.

Right, because no one I know believes in Thor. I'm challenging the belief(s), for which I am not in agreement with, in this debate forum.

No one was talking about (nor cares about) Thor.

Reread what I said.

[SiNcE_1985]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #255]

Hey man, history has always been my favorite subject...and I dig the fact that you are seemingly well versed in the subject, at least as it relates to Christianity.

I don't want to hijack the thread with it though, but I'd love to intellectually slap you around on this topic on another thread.

[Tcg]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #255]

I don't want to hijack the thread with it though, but I'd love to intellectually slap you around on this topic on another thread.

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[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #255]

Hey man, history has always been my favorite subject...and I dig the fact that you are seemingly well versed in the subject, at least as it relates to Christianity.

I don't want to hijack the thread with it though, but I'd love to intellectually slap you around on this topic on another thread.

I don't claim to be an expert in Christian history or anything else. In apologetics, one has to know just enough to detect wrong arguments on the other side.

But if you can frame a Christian history point as a Question (as required by ToS) then by all means, start such a thread.