THE ANGEL OF THE LORD IS ALWAYS GOD HIMSELF

[Eddie Ramos]

When somoene mentions the word "angel", mankind has already been conditioned by this world to imagine someone in a white robe with giant wings and maybe a halo or not, depending on what you've been exposed to. As a result, when we read the Bible and come across the word "angels", we immediately associate it with spiritual angelic beings. But when we take the time to examine both the Hebrew and Greek word God used for "angel", we discover that very few times is it actually speaking of spiritual angelic beings or even human beings. And most of the times it's a refernce to God himself.

The reason is because when we look up the Hebrew (malak) and Greek (angelos) word for "angel", we notice that God purposely used this word to refer to three things, angelic spiritual beings, human beings and God himself. So, when the translators felt that a spiritual being was in view, (most of the time) they translated it as "angel", and when they felt that it was just refering to a person, (most of the time) they translated it as "messenger" in order to try and help the reader differentiate between the two. But in doing so, they actually caused more confusion.

So, our job as students of the Bible is to examine each and every instance of the use of the word "malak" and "angelos" to be able to determine who is in view. And we can start with the very common phrase, "the angel of the LORD". I will defend the fact that this is always referring to God himself. And I will provide my first example. This is the first place in the Bible where the phrase "the angel of the LORD" is used and it's speaking of Hagar who fled from Sari after Sarai dealt harshly with her.

Genesis 16:7–13 (KJV 1900)
And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. 8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. 9 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. 10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. 12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. 13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

The first thing w enotice as we study the angel of the LORD is that God often speaks of himself in the first person, but also in the third person. This is why it can be confusing when we see the angel of the LORD speaking as if though he's speaking on behalf of the one who sent him, then at other times he speaks in the first person, as if though he's God himself. But when we can see that God does this all throughout the Bible (not just in the setting of the angel of the LORD) then first person and third person references are not a problem when it comes to understanding who is the angel of the LORD.

But what we don't find in the Bible are actual angelic spiritual beings speaking as if though they were God himself. This is one way we can be sure that when the angel of the LORD says, "I will multiply thy seed..." that it's God himself speaking and not an angelic spiritual being. This is why it's important to translate the word "angel" into the word "messenger" everytime it appears in the Bible. This way we will be forced to examine the text much closer to see who is in view in each case. Thus, the angel of the LORD is best understood as the messenger of JEHOVAH, which is Christ. This means that God is not an angel, the way we understand angelic beings to be, but he is the messenger because he has given us the Word of God (Christ).

Question for debate: Can you provide any references that show that the angel of the LORD is not JEHOVAH himself?

[JehovahsWitness]

LUKE 2:9-12 - King James Version

9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. 12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger

the angel of the LORD is best understood as the messenger of JEHOVAH, which is Christ.

[Eddie Ramos]

LUKE 2:9-12 - King James Version

9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. 12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger

the angel of the LORD is best understood as the messenger of JEHOVAH, which is Christ.

Good scripture. How can the angel of the LORD, or the messenger of JEHOVAH (who is Christ himself), bring this message to the shepherds in the field while the baby Jesus is himself lying in a manger as this messenger is speaking? This becomes difficult for JEHOVAH's witnesses to comprehend because they deny the triune godhead and deny the fact that Jesus himself is GOD Almighty in the flesh. But this is even a good question for those who can see the divinity of God because this would suggest that Christ was in 2 places at once. And while this is not impossible for God, there is no need to use that point as a blanket statement every time we need to answer something difficult. But the Bible actually provides for us an answer that answers this question and harmonizes with the Bible as a whole.

John 3:13 (KJV 1900)
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven (this means that Christ was first to ascend up to heaven, and he's now manifested himself in the flesh and has come down from heaven. This means that he is now on earth dewlling with man. But he's not only on earth because he also says....), even the Son of man which is in (present active tense) heaven.

So, the messenger of JEHOVAH that spoke to the shephers in the field about the manifested messiah (himself) presents no problem to the scriptures at all for the mesenger of JEHOVAH to be Christ himself.

[1213]

...
But what we don't find in the Bible are actual angelic spiritual beings speaking as if though they were God himself. This is one way we can be sure that when the angel of the LORD says, "I will multiply thy seed..." that it's God himself speaking and not an angelic spiritual being. ...

I think it means, the angel said what God had said, not his own message. Not a good reason to think the angel of the Lord means God himself.

[Eddie Ramos]

...
But what we don't find in the Bible are actual angelic spiritual beings speaking as if though they were God himself. This is one way we can be sure that when the angel of the LORD says, "I will multiply thy seed..." that it's God himself speaking and not an angelic spiritual being. ...

I think it means, the angel said what God had said, not his own message. Not a good reason to think the angel of the Lord means God himself.

First you also have to ask yourself, who does verse 13 say spoke to her? An angelic being as a messenger, or JEHOVAH?

Genesis 16:13 (KJV 1900)
And she called the name of JEHOVAH that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

But you are corect in that the messenger said what God said, that's because the messenger was God himself in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 14:10 (KJV 1900)
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

This means that the godhead is not independent of one another, even though they portray themselves in a deity of 3. But the initial conclusion was not based on one verse, but on every verse that uses the phrase, "the messenger of JEHOVAH" (the angel of the LORD). Here is another example:

Genesis 22:12 (KJV 1900)
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God (this would be a great proof text to show that if this was indeed an angelic being speaking on behalf of God because we see him referring to God in the third person. But then he says this...), seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Now, what seems like inconsistency here, is actually very common throughout the Bible as God speaks of himself in both, the first and the third person. That of course is to show us that while he indeed is one God, he describes himself as 3 deities.

Genesis 18:1–3 (KJV 1900)
And JEHOVAH appeared (He made himself seen) unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him (these are God's words which teach us about his divinity) : and when he saw them (the 3 men), he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, 3 And said, My Lord (My master), if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

The passage starts off by addressing a single individual (JEHOVAH), then he manifests himself as 3 men, then Abraham runs to meet the three men and bows down, showing reverence, and addresses them singularly as "master". So, those who deny the triune godhead will conclude that only one of those men was JEHOVAH and the other 2 were angels (messengers). But the scriptures refute that without a problem. BUt before we get to that, let's continue to see how these men speak to Abraham.

Genesis 18:5 (KJV 1900)
And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

Now, while most will just write this off as mere conversation, nothing in the Bible is written to fill up space. So, either the three men spoke in unison or they were all in agreement, either way, this also confirms for us this verse:

1 John 5:8 (KJV 1900)
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Nothing in the Bible is coincidence. Now, in verse 9, they still continue to speak in what seems to be in unison (or, as one).

Genesis 18:9 (KJV 1900)
And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.

And now JEHOVAH switches it up and speaks as one man. Still in agreement with 1 John 5:8.

Genesis 18:10 (KJV 1900)
And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him.


Genesis 18:13–15 (KJV 1900)
And JEHOVAH said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? 14 Is any thing too hard for JEHOVAH (speaking of himself in the third person, like the angel of the LORD also often does)? At the time appointed I (first person) will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son. 15 Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh.

As the story continues, God continues speaking of himself in both the first and third person.

Genesis 18:16–19 (KJV 1900)
And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way. 17 And the LORD said, Shall I (first person) hide from Abraham that thing which I do; 18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD (third person), to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he (third person) hath spoken of him.

Now this is where it gets interesting because these three men are about to split up. And if we just glance at the text, we may miss what is actually taking place because these 3 men are still JEHOVAH.

Genesis 18:20–22 (KJV 1900)
And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now (JEHOVAH is going to go to Sodom), and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. 22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

So, here is where those who deny the triune godhead conclude that only one of the three men was in fact JEHOVAH, and the other 2 men were just angels/messengers. But let's see what the Bible says. Now, as the two men depart to the city of Sodom we read of JEHOVAH and Abraham still having a conversation. BUt after this conversation, we read that JEHOVAH "returned unto his place". And his place is not a reference to his house on a plot of land, his place is in heaven. I'll explain why that is important in a sec.

Genesis 19:1–2 (KJV 1900)
And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; 2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

Now the Bible uses the word "angels/messengers" to describe these 2 men, just the same way the Bible describes the angel of the LORD. And here, we see Lot bowing himself with his face toward the ground, same as Abraham did when he saw JEHOVAH. This presents a problem if these are just standard angelic beings as mesengers because they are being worshipped (that's exactly what the word "bow down" means).

Revelation 22:8–9 (KJV 1900)
And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Now comes the end of this account, and we have to continue to pay close attention to what's being said:

Genesis 19:12–14 (KJV 1900)
And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: 13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it (So, if we're convinced that these are just angelic messengers sent to cary out a task, then these verses would seem to support that idea. But as with any conclusion, all the pieces have to be considered before arriving at one. And now we know that it was these 2 angels task to destroy this city. Well, let's see what happens) . 14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city (Is that what the 2 messengers specifically said? No, but here we can see that it means the same thing) . But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

Now Lot is asking for a special request. And once again God shows us his singleness and plurality by the words he chose to use here.

Genesis 19:18–22 (KJV 1900)
And Lot said unto them (plural), Oh, not so, my Lord (singular) : 19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight (remember, Lot is speaking unto 2 angels), and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die: 20 Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live. 21 And he (singular) said unto him, See, I have accepted thee concerning this thing also, that I will not overthrow this city, for the which thou hast spoken. 22 Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither. Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.

And now who destroys Sodom and the round about cities? JEHOVAH does.

Genesis 19:24–25 (KJV 1900)
Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; 25 And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

This last passage may also be overlooked if read too quickly because it specifically says that JEHOVAH rained fire and brimstone from JEHOVAH out of heaven. So, now we have to put the pieces together. The 2 angels said that they were sent to destroy, and after JEHOVAH spoke with Abraham, he went to his place. If "his place" means heaven (which it does), then we have agreement with verse 24 because the 2 messengers were JEHOVAH and JEHOVAH was also in heaven (just like we read in Jn 3:13). And now verse 24 also finds agreement with verse 12 and we don't have to sweep verse 12 under the rug.

And the closer we look, the more the Bible contiues to confirm that the angel of JEHOVAH is JEHOVAH himself.

[onewithhim]

LUKE 2:9-12 - King James Version

9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. 12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger

the angel of the LORD is best understood as the messenger of JEHOVAH, which is Christ.

Good scripture. How can the angel of the LORD, or the messenger of JEHOVAH (who is Christ himself), bring this message to the shepherds in the field while the baby Jesus is himself lying in a manger as this messenger is speaking? This becomes difficult for JEHOVAH's witnesses to comprehend because they deny the triune godhead and deny the fact that Jesus himself is GOD Almighty in the flesh. But this is even a good question for those who can see the divinity of God because this would suggest that Christ was in 2 places at once. And while this is not impossible for God, there is no need to use that point as a blanket statement every time we need to answer something difficult. But the Bible actually provides for us an answer that answers this question and harmonizes with the Bible as a whole.

John 3:13 (KJV 1900)
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven (this means that Christ was first to ascend up to heaven, and he's now manifested himself in the flesh and has come down from heaven. This means that he is now on earth dewlling with man. But he's not only on earth because he also says....), even the Son of man which is in (present active tense) heaven.

So, the messenger of JEHOVAH that spoke to the shephers in the field about the manifested messiah (himself) presents no problem to the scriptures at all for the mesenger of JEHOVAH to be Christ himself.

No problem. Surely an angel stepped in for Jesus while Jesus was on the earth, particularly when he was a baby. No trinity necessary. That's makes as much sense as the trinity explanation, or more so. As I recall, it was Gabriel who spoke to Mary before Jesus was born on Earth.

[Eddie Ramos]

LUKE 2:9-12 - King James Version

9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. 12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger

the angel of the LORD is best understood as the messenger of JEHOVAH, which is Christ.

Good scripture. How can the angel of the LORD, or the messenger of JEHOVAH (who is Christ himself), bring this message to the shepherds in the field while the baby Jesus is himself lying in a manger as this messenger is speaking? This becomes difficult for JEHOVAH's witnesses to comprehend because they deny the triune godhead and deny the fact that Jesus himself is GOD Almighty in the flesh. But this is even a good question for those who can see the divinity of God because this would suggest that Christ was in 2 places at once. And while this is not impossible for God, there is no need to use that point as a blanket statement every time we need to answer something difficult. But the Bible actually provides for us an answer that answers this question and harmonizes with the Bible as a whole.

John 3:13 (KJV 1900)
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven (this means that Christ was first to ascend up to heaven, and he's now manifested himself in the flesh and has come down from heaven. This means that he is now on earth dewlling with man. But he's not only on earth because he also says....), even the Son of man which is in (present active tense) heaven.

So, the messenger of JEHOVAH that spoke to the shephers in the field about the manifested messiah (himself) presents no problem to the scriptures at all for the mesenger of JEHOVAH to be Christ himself.

No problem. Surely an angel stepped in for Jesus while Jesus was on the earth, particularly when he was a baby. No trinity necessary. That's makes as much sense as the trinity explanation, or more so. As I recall, it was Gabriel who spoke to Mary before Jesus was born on Earth.

Yet John 3:13 shows us that it's not a problem for Christ to be in 2 places at once (just like God). So, there's no need to speculate on what is possible or not possible for God. Furthermore, understanding who the angel of the LORD is (Jesus) begins by looking at each and every instance it's used in the Bible, paying attention to how God (not man) chose each word to convey His truth. The problem is that we've been so trained into picturing an actual spiritual angelic being evrytime we read the word "angel" in the Bible, that we tend not to even think twice about the fact that God uses this word to describe spiritual angelic beings, but also humans, as well as God himself. That's why I feel that the translators were better off by translating this Hebrew and Greek word as "messenger" everytyime it appears in the Bible. This way it would have caused more people to look closer to see exactly who was in view in each case.

Exodus 3:1–8 (KJV 1900)
Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. 2 And the angel of the LORD (the messenger of JEHOVAH) appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. 3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him (not from heaven) out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. 5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said (this is the messenger of JEHOVAH speaking), I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 (now the messenger of JEHOVAH is just refered to as JEHOVAH) And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows; 8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

Who is the messenger of JEHOVAH but JEHOVAH himself.

[Tcg]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

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[onewithhim]

LUKE 2:9-12 - King James Version

9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. 12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger

the angel of the LORD is best understood as the messenger of JEHOVAH, which is Christ.

Good scripture. How can the angel of the LORD, or the messenger of JEHOVAH (who is Christ himself), bring this message to the shepherds in the field while the baby Jesus is himself lying in a manger as this messenger is speaking? This becomes difficult for JEHOVAH's witnesses to comprehend because they deny the triune godhead and deny the fact that Jesus himself is GOD Almighty in the flesh. But this is even a good question for those who can see the divinity of God because this would suggest that Christ was in 2 places at once. And while this is not impossible for God, there is no need to use that point as a blanket statement every time we need to answer something difficult. But the Bible actually provides for us an answer that answers this question and harmonizes with the Bible as a whole.

John 3:13 (KJV 1900)
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven (this means that Christ was first to ascend up to heaven, and he's now manifested himself in the flesh and has come down from heaven. This means that he is now on earth dewlling with man. But he's not only on earth because he also says....), even the Son of man which is in (present active tense) heaven.

So, the messenger of JEHOVAH that spoke to the shephers in the field about the manifested messiah (himself) presents no problem to the scriptures at all for the mesenger of JEHOVAH to be Christ himself.

No problem. Surely an angel stepped in for Jesus while Jesus was on the earth, particularly when he was a baby. No trinity necessary. That's makes as much sense as the trinity explanation, or more so. As I recall, it was Gabriel who spoke to Mary before Jesus was born on Earth.

.

[Eddie Ramos]

[Replying to Eddie Ramos in post #1]

Moderator Clarification

Please take note of the following rule:

3. When you start a new topic in a debate subforum, it must state a clearly defined question(s) for debate.

A question(s) for debate needs to be added or this topic will be moved to Random Ramblings.

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Moderator clarifications do not count as a strike against any posters. They serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received and/or are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels a clarification of the rules is required.

I updated my OP. I knew better but forgot.