Sentient Earth - Is the planet mindful and would this explain why there is life in earth?

[The Tanager]

In another thread, William and I were talking about morality and we got off on some topics like the one above. We decided to have that conversation here. This is the first question I'd like to look at. I do think life on earth is only ultimately explained via some kind of mind (or personal agent or creator). I think this belief is rationally supported by various arguments such as the Kalam cosmological argument, the fine-tuning argument, the moral argument, the applicability of mathematics, and the argument from consciousness. I do not think these arguments lead us to the conclusion that a sentient Earth is the ultimate mind behind it all or that it is a mindful link in the chain of creation. I don't think these arguments necessarily rule out a sentient Earth either (although I haven't given this point more than a surface consideration). But logical possibility is not a deciding test of truth, so we need to go further and find reasoning to lead us to the planet actually being mindful. Currently, I see no good reason to believe our planet is mindful.

So, William, I'd love to hear why you think we are rationally warranted in asserting that the planet is mindful and at least part of the chain of creation that led to us. In that other thread you seemed to just assert the Earth as a mindful example and thought that I was doing the same with the immaterial Mind behind creation. If I was that would certainly be a double standard, but I think the above arguments support an immaterial Mind behind creation. What arguments do you think support a sentient Earth?

[The Tanager]

What has me wondering is why any theist would deny God is material in composition and that God is not observed interacting within the creation rather than simply existing "elsewhere" aloof and separate (even to the point of being declared as "immaterial") from said creation.

To clarify, I don’t think God exists “elsewhere” or is aloof. I believe God is not the same “stuff” material things are, but is still intimately involved with all of them.

Presently I neither reject or accept that their Christianity played a part in their claim.

Okay, then we’ll drop that.

Stop wasting my time arguing stuff I am not saying.

You know that we have a hard time understanding each other. I am not trying to misrepresent you. Simply clarify, William.

Well how about that.

Perhaps they also disagree as to what they mean by matter. Perhaps some mean matter that is obviously matter, while others mean matter which has not formed into the identifiable objects we see in the universe.

The Kalam is addressing matter in this second, general sense. I forget if that video addresses matter in both senses or just one.

Why is God portrayed as formful in every biblical encounter if that is error?

There are “formful” encounters, as well as other ones that aren’t (dreams, visions, voices, etc.).

Then get to it Jason. Show me why I should accept premise 2 as true.

You are obviously frustrated and I am not trying to frustrate you. I really am trying to have a cordial fireside conversation with you. Here is the first philosophical argument:

1. An actual infinite cannot exist.
2. An infinite temporal regress of events (which is what would have to be true if reality is eternal) is an actual infinite.
3. Therefore, an infinite temporal regress of events cannot exist.

Do you understand premise 1 or do I need to explain it more? If you understand it, then do you agree with it or not?

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #101]

There are “formful” encounters, as well as other ones that aren’t (dreams, visions, voices, etc.).

Lets focus on the formful encounters then, since these are directly related to physical encounters re God being material.

Explain if you will, how you think an immaterial entity achieves the creation and animation of form.

Obviously I think it is because mind is material and further to that, a mindful planet is as easy to achieve as any other mindful incarnation.

Also - out of interest, is your immaterial God bigger than the universe or smaller?

[Waterfall]

Namaskaram...



Your friend forever

Waterfall

Hi Waterfall

The video you posted re the Gospel of Thomas starts off with something I understand is relevant to the idea that the planet is mindful.

Transcript

2:38
Jesus said let one who seeks not stop seeking until one finds when one finds one will be disturbed when one is Disturbed One will Marvel and will Reign Over All

(this saying emphasizes the importance of seeking spiritual knowledge and understanding even when the search is difficult or unsettling it suggests that those who persevere in their search will ultimately achieve a sense of wonder and Mastery over their lives)

Jesus said if your leaders say to you look the kingdom is in the sky then the birds of the sky will precede you if they say to you it is in the sea then the fish will precede you rather the kingdom is inside of you and it is outside of you when you come to know yourselves then you will become known and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father but if you will not know yourselves you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty

(This saying emphasizes the idea that the Kingdom of Heaven is not a physical place that can be located but rather a spiritual state of being that can be achieved through self-knowledge and understanding it suggests that those who fail to seek this knowledge will remain trapped in spiritual poverty)
4:01

Overall the ideas presented represent an inner realisation that nothing and no one is truly separate from The Father (The Creator Mind) and one is indeed a child of God.

The idea that God is both immaterial and exists outside of the things created stems from those who have yet to realize who they are and this is why they "dwell in poverty" - a type of self imposed ignorance as to their true nature, they struggle to comprehend the significance of themselves in that light, and consequently remain unmindful (in poverty) of that truth.

So yes - it is important not to hide one's light (this information) from others, even in the hope that they will at some stage in their journey stop resisting that awareness and begin the journey into the riches such awareness offers in an extended hand.

Yes we are all born into sin (ignorance) as a natural aspect of the human experience, but we are not left in ignorance and to fight against receiving the knowledge, is to wilfully remain in sin (ignorance).

Hi William

Can you explain this...

Yes we are all born into sin (ignorance) as a natural aspect of the human experience, but we are not left in ignorance and to fight against receiving the knowledge, is to wilfully remain in sin (ignorance).

Did we not know anything? Why do you call it a sin? I have just seen this on another forum (Facebook)...



Maybe it is time for some more music...









Your friend forever

Waterfall

[The Tanager]

Lets focus on the formful encounters then, since these are directly related to physical encounters re God being material.

Explain if you will, how you think an immaterial entity achieves the creation and animation of form.

Obviously I think it is because mind is material and further to that, a mindful planet is as easy to achieve as any other mindful incarnation.

Yes, a mindful planet would be as easy to achieve as any other mindful incarnation, but that doesn't mean the Mind chooses to do that. As to the how question, what do you mean? Following how you answered that question for the material mind above: I think it is because mind is immaterial and further to that, immaterial interacting with matter is as easy to achieve as material interacting with matter. Those are two identical explanations, so mine can't be obviously false, while yours is obviously true. So I think you think there are some steps you have in your explanation that make all the difference, but they are hidden. Could you pull those out? In other words, could you explain, in more detail, how you think a material entity achieves the creation and animation of form?

Also - out of interest, is your immaterial God bigger than the universe or smaller?

Size and other quantities are characteristics that belong to material things. Therefore it makes no sense to ask what size an immaterial entity is.

[William]

[Replying to Waterfall in post #103]

Can you explain this...

Yes we are all born into sin (ignorance) as a natural aspect of the human experience, but we are not left in ignorance and to fight against receiving the knowledge, is to wilfully remain in sin (ignorance).

Did we not know anything? Why do you call it a sin?

Hi Waterfall

In a way I was talking out loud...remembering something I read along those lines. years ago which has stuck with me.

Sin - in religious terminology is often defined as evil. Online dictionaries define sin as
"an offense against religious or moral law. b. : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible."
"In a religious context, sin is a transgression against divine law or a law of the deities. Each culture has its own interpretation of what it means to ..."
"Sin is regarded in Judaism and Christianity as the deliberate and purposeful violation of the will of God."
"any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense:"

I think the idea of sin (like so many ideas which pass through the hands of organised religion) has been twisted to suit those agendas (agendas which might be understood as evil) and I wanted to take the common beliefs (predominantly peddled by Abrahamic religions) and shine a different light on those concepts.

"Born into sin" "Die in sin" "Sacrificed for our sin" et al...and show the stigma attached.

I have also seen "sin" interpreted as "missing the mark" and in that sense it makes more sense...when attached to "ignorance".

Since most of us enter into the human experience without knowledge of a prior existence (as I wrote about a few post back) should we consider this to be "Evil"?

Of course not! That is simply the way the design works and if The Creator Mind is not evil, then niether is the design.

In post 71 I wrote:

If it is the truth that we exist within The Creator Mind, then why we have not known it involves many reasons - primarily because if we believed we were kindred to The Creator, rather than separate from, unworthy of etc, we would not be so beholding to those who teach us otherwise. We would more likely be self empowered, see one another differently (as family) and so the truth is concealed from us by those who want to remain in controlling positions and said truth may well not even be something they themselves are fully aware of. The truth still exists (because it cannot be destroyed) but it can be hidden.

We can even assist in the deception by wilfully remaining ignorant (not wanting to know the truth or insisting we already know the truth we are told) but I think the truth is that we intuit it... deep inside we all know what the truth is...but that is deep inside, and most prefer the shallows...

If you like, we can examine the story in John 8: through the lens of this idea that "sin means ignorance"...

[William]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #104]

Yes, a mindful planet would be as easy to achieve as any other mindful incarnation, but that doesn't mean the Mind chooses to do that.

Then we would have to examine why TCM wouldn't have chosen to do that.

Explain if you will, how you think an immaterial entity achieves the creation and animation of form.

what do you mean?

You don't understand the question?

Following how you answered that question for the material mind above:

Do not waste my time Jason.

I think it is because mind is immaterial and further to that, immaterial interacting with matter is as easy to achieve as material interacting with matter.

How? How does an immaterial mind interact with the material. What is the process?

Those are two identical explanations,

Use your words Jason. When you use my words, then obviously the same explanation is identical to the original...

so mine can't be obviously false, while yours is obviously true.

It isn't your explanation. You simply appropriated my explanation and in that way came up with the conclusion that using my explanation resulted in "showing" your view has no obvious fault while my explanation is obviously true.

So I think you think there are some steps you have in your explanation that make all the difference, but they are hidden.

No they are not hidden...although perhaps they are "hidden" in the sense that you rejected them...but certainly they have been shared by me, here in this thread - and no, (to be clear) I am not going to play into the "remind me I forgot" distraction (in case you are tempted to use that).

(This may assist you in your search - Index for Sentient Earth Thread post 1 - 32)

Could you pull those out? In other words, could you explain, in more detail, how you think a material entity achieves the creation and animation of form?

Nor am I going to be distracted by the switcheroo strategy.
I have explained how, and am asking you to do the same - since you have yet to explain how.

Size and other quantities are characteristics that belong to material things. Therefore it makes no sense to ask what size an immaterial entity is.

I agree with this if it were simply a case of only the immaterial mind existing. Once such interacts with (or is claimed to have created such a vast and complex universe) then it should have some bearing on the outcome - and may even shed some light on the mystery as to the "how" question you have been asked to supply an answer to.

Is this immaterial mind smaller than a Higgs boson?
Larger than the universe?

Something else? What do you think?

[The Tanager]

[Replying to William in post #106]

Hey William. Our approaches are just too different to have a constructive discussion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and giving me space to share mine. Have a wonderful day.

[William]

[Replying to William in post #106]

Hey William. Our approaches are just too different to have a constructive discussion.

Hey Jason,
I don't think they are, but it is your call, if that is what you think.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and giving me space to share mine. Have a wonderful day.

No problem. I plan to delve a little deeper into some of the things you argued anyway, so you are welcome to post here as you want to.

I hope all the best in your journey through this human experience.

Here's a song I wrote - enjoy...

[William]

1. An actual infinite cannot exist.

The actual infinite argument does not apply to the idea that the universe exists within The Creator Mind, or that the planet is a mindful entity or that The Creator Mind is material.

It appears to apply only to an idea that there are an infinite number of rooms within the house (Creator Mind), which has not been/is not being argued here.

Creator Mind Theory.
The Creator Mind is Eternal.
All things experienced are within The Creator Mind.
There is no outside of The Creator Mind.
The Creator Mind is fundamentally material.

brings with it simplicity and solution.


Creator Mind Theory Summary

Key Concepts:
Eternal and Material Creator Mind:

The Creator Mind is eternal and exists beyond time.
It is fundamentally material, not immaterial.

Vibrational Fields and Creation:

The universe and all its structures are manifestations of the Creator Mind’s vibrational frequencies.
Creation is an ongoing process where the Creator Mind modulates these frequencies to produce various forms and phenomena.

Integration with Science:
Galaxies and Cosmic Structures:

Observed cosmic structures, such as galaxies, can be seen as patterns created by the Creator Mind’s vibrational fields, similar to cymatic patterns formed by sound frequencies.

Quantum Mechanics and Field Theory:

Concepts like wave-particle duality and quantum fields support the idea that material reality is fundamentally vibrational.

Philosophical and Scientific Coherence:
The theory aligns with scientific discoveries by interpreting them through the lens of a unified, vibrational material reality.
It avoids the need for immateriality and ex nihilo creation, offering a coherent explanation for the nature of the universe.

By integrating these elements, the Creator Mind Theory provides a holistic framework that connects metaphysical ideas with empirical scientific observations, fostering a deeper understanding of the universe and our place within it.

[Waterfall]

[Replying to Waterfall in post #80]

Are you saying that the earth is our God? Or something like that...

No.
I am saying that the earth mind plays the role of all of human Gods imagined/imaginable since the dawn of human mythology. We are the mindful aspects of the planet mind incarnated into the humans forms on the planet and that all life-forms are mindful (to different degrees depending of form) and all mindfulness is related in that way.

I am also saying with that idea, that we are not "created"...form is what is created. Mind is eternal (was never created)

The earth form was created. The Earth Mind is incarnate within the planet form, and is itself a mindful aspect of The Creator Mind.

Namaskaram William

Is there one big mind and many small minds? God has always existed but I am not so sure about us? How do others think...

https://human.libretexts.org/Bookshelve ... gavad_Gita

If we are not created spirits then I will have to drop this book...

https://carstenplougolsen.com/english-section/

https://carstenplougolsen.com/the-truth ... the-light/

Do you find this true...

https://www.krishna.com/where-do-fallen-souls-fall

Are we sources of inspiration...







Your friend forever

Waterfall