Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

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Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #1

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Across my Biblical studies in the old testament there is a chapter named Daniel and this chapter has some visions that's supposed to represent the future events to come and in most of the time those visions are represented in real Historic facts, in this post I would like to discuss the vision of Daniel 7 https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Daniel-Chapter-7/
So I will make 4 main points in this post:

1- The 4 beasts
2- The 10 horns
3- The small horn
4- The time after the small horn

First point is the 4 beasts no one will had different interpretation of the beasts other than the 4 empires, 1- Babylon 2- Persian 3- Greek 4- Roman

Second point is the 10 horns.
23-Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24-And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The Hakham Saadia Gaon said in his Book
The ten could be :
1- The greatest emperors.
2- The greatest fathers ( The earliest Emperors )
3- The greatest one of each family.
If we take any of the above conditions only 10 emperors will remain.

In my opinion they are the 10 emperors that conquered Jerusalem and killed both monotheists and Trinitarians and they are ten starting from Nero up to Diocletian 305 not just my humble opinion but also the opinion of many Christian theologians.

Now the small Horn
24 - and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
The small horn here should be also an emperor from the Romans and after 10 emperors and he shall conquer three and say great things against God and will be different from those 10 and the one matching the vision is Constantine the Great.
Constantine the Great in 313 made the Edict of Milan which declared tolerance for Christianity in the Roman Empire, he began to favor Christianity beginning in 312, finally becoming a Christian and being baptised by either Eusebius of Nicomedia an Arian bishop or Pope Saint Sylvester which is maintained by the Catholic Church and the Coptic Orthodox Church. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_the_Great).
he eliminated 3 emperors

In his book History of Christian Church, Philip Schaff mentioned
With his every victory, over his pagan rivals, Galerius, Maxentius, and Licinius, his personal leaning to Christianity and his confidence in the magic power of the sign of the cross increased; yet he did not formally renounce heathenism, and did not receive baptism until, in 337, he was laid upon the bed of his death
(https://worthychristianbooks.com/histor ... an-empire/)
The very brightest period of his reign is stained with gross crimes, which even the spirit of the age and the policy of an absolute monarch cannot excuse. After having reached, upon the bloody path of war, the goal of his ambition, the sole possession of the empire, yea, in the very year in which he summoned the great council of Nicaea, he ordered the execution of his conquered rival and brother-in-law, Licinius, in breach of a solemn promise of mercy (324). Not satisfied with this, he caused soon afterwards, from political suspicion, the death of the young Licinius, his nephew, a boy of hardly eleven years. But the worst of all is the murder of his eldest son, Crispus, in 326
Also in their book (The Complete Book of When and Where) E. Michael Rusten · Sharon O. Rusten wrote
But there was a darker side to Constantine. In 326, he had his wife, the sister of Maxentius, and one son executed under suspicious circumstances. He also never relinquished his position as chief priest of the pagan state religion, and his coins proclaimed his allegiance to the sun god. He delayed Christian baptism until shortly before his death.

https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... nstantine/
His conversion was not accompanied by a sharp break with his former paganism. Rather, a transition is discernible from the worship of the divine Sun to the service of the one true Christian God. When, in 321, he made the first day of the week a holiday, he described it as the day of the sun (but so do Christians today!).
https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/m ... rly-church
What Constantine did about Christmas further suggests he had Christianity in mind. Early Christians, of course, had no information that would help the, calculate the date of Christ's birth. The earliest evidence for the observance of December 25 as the birthday of Christ appears in the Philocalian Calendar, composed at Rome in 336. For many years this date was observed only in the west ; the eastern churchs observed Jan 6, Epiphany. Curiously, pagan holidays lay behind both of these dates. December 25 was the Natalis Soli Invicti, the birthday of the Unconquered Sun. Jan 6 was the feast of Dionysus.
so regarding the quotations above we can say for sure the small horn is Constantine the Great

Now before going to 4th point we need to highlight some points
1- His converting to Christianity was political issue
2- He eliminated monotheists and declared trinitarians
3- He was never baptized until his death
4- He killed many of his family members
5- He mixed Christianity and paganism
6- He killed anyone owned Arian books


Now we move to point 4, the point that Christians ,Muslims and other theologians have interpreted differently
He will speak words against the Most High [God] and wear down the saints of the Most High, and he will intend to change the times and the law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, [two] times, and half a time [three and one-half years].
https://biblehub.com/daniel/7-25.htm

we need to ask first who ended the Ruling of Constantine and his followers, and the answer is clear, Muslims ended the ruling of Constantine and his followers over Jerusalem ( Kingdom of God). Constantine and his followers reigned over Jerusalem from 305 up 636 means 331 years which is by lunar years 640 and which is almost 3.5 portions of time ( 1 portion = 100 years )

This post was nothing but a personal view to the vision.

Edit Important note: -
Main researcher ( Ahmed Spea )
The post is a modified English version of the main research.
Last edited by mms20102 on Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #81

Post by GoldenCup »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #79]
So the dragon ceased to exist ceases to influence mankind?
Never said that. The Great RED dragon is still very much in power but WORKING THROUGH the Sea Beast. That's why the beast is Scarlet/Red. The dragon is the last to go into the lake of fire AFTER the BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET who are the 7th and 8th head.

Rev. 20:10, and the devil (dragon) who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say the sea beast is an expression of the dragon's dominance?
I can agree with that, but more accurately it's A PUPPET being used by the Dragon.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #82

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GoldenCup wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 2:30 pm
Wouldn't it be more accurate to say the sea beast is an expression of the dragon's dominance?
I can agree with that, but more accurately it's A PUPPET being used by the Dragon.
So, the Sea beast is the PUPPET of the Dragon. I agree. So there are two different beast, 1. the PUPETEER (the manipulator) and 2. the instrument (puppet) he manipulates. A puppets is the creation of the pupeteer .

If "the pupeteer" is THE DEVIL (represented in scripture as 1. "The Dragon") ... what is "The puppet" (represented by 2. The leopard (sea beast)?

=====================

GoldenCup wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 2:21 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #77]
The woman is sitting on the scarlet (red) beast , identified as the beast that "was but is not" . It is this scarlet beast Not the sea beast, that is the so-called 8th King (not 8th head).
"And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a GREAT RED DRAGON, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems"
So are you arguing that the scarlet beast is the DRAGON because they are both RED? Are you suggesting there Are not THREE but only TWO beasts?
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #83

Post by GoldenCup »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #82]
So are you arguing that the scarlet beast is the DRAGON because they are both RED? Are you suggesting there Are not THREE but only TWO beasts?
What I'm asserting based on scriupture, is that the Red Dragon uses TWO BEASTS: the sea Beast and the earth Beast (aka False Prophet), as PUPPETS to do his bidding. The color connection between the dragon and the sea beast, and the connection of the Lamb like Earth Beast (False Prophet) that speaks as a DRAGON, shows that Satan is working through both of these. The color scarlet/red on the sea beast, and the speaking like a dragon by the earth beast, shows the relationship/connection between them & the Dragon.

That's why we see in Rev. 16:13, And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs coming out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet.

The dragon works through the beast and false prophet and that's why we see similar triats characteristics of the Dragon in BOTH the Sea and the Earth Beast. Scarlet Red like the dragon in the sea beast, and speaking like the Dragon in the earth beast.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #84

Post by JehovahsWitness »

============================================


GoldenCup wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 3:27 pm [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #82]
So are you arguing that the scarlet beast is the DRAGON because they are both RED? Are you suggesting there Are not THREE but only TWO beasts?
What I'm asserting based on scriupture, is that the Red Dragon uses TWO BEASTS: the sea Beast and the earth
I've no problem with that but ....I'm still unclear: are you saying as far as RED beasts are concern, that there is only ONE, namely the DRAGON. In short are you saying that the SCARLET beast (upon which the harlot sits) is the dragon? And there is no other RED beast?
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Jun 13, 2024 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #85

Post by GoldenCup »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 3:30 pm
I've no problem with that but ....I'm still unclear: are you saying as far as RED beasts are concern, that there is only ONE, namely the DRAGON. In short are you saying that the SCARLET beast (upon which the harlot sits) is the dragon? And there is no other RED beast?
What I'm saying is that the scarlet beast and sea beast are one and the same not SEPARATE. That the reason the sea beast has similar triats to the Red Dragon (Scarlet) is because of its relationship and connection to the Dragon, who works through it, and gave it its power , throne, and authority. We have a 2nd biblical example that attests to this, in the connection of the earth beast to the dragon; it looks like a lamb but has the characteristic of SPEAKING AS A DRAGON.

On the other hand, you speculate that because the woman sits on a scarlet beast in Rev. 17, and just because the word "Scarlet" wasn't mentioned earlier concerning the sea beast, that this somehow proves your extremely speculative assumption that the scarlet beast is DIFFERENT from the sea beast, and erroneously assert that it must be THE IMAGE OF THE SEA BEAST. This is conjecture and an extremely speculative theory not suppoerted by scripture.

What you fail to realize is that the 7th head (which is when the dragon gives the sea beast its power) "IS ALSO" an 8th.
The 8th comes out of the 7th head which is the EARTH BEAST False Prophet.

These two puppets get thrown into the lake of fire FIRST since they're the last two heads. Then the puppeteer Dragon is thrown in the lake of fire LAST.

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #86

Post by GoldenCup »

[Replying to GoldenCup in post #85]
In short are you saying that the SCARLET beast (upon which the harlot sits) is the dragon?
Nope, I'm saying that the woman sits on the sea beast (which is scarlet colored) because of its connection to the red Dragon that controls it. There's 3 beasts: A red Dragon, A sea beast, and an earth beast. The scarlet colored beast is the same as the SEA beast NOT different.

But even if I did believe that the dragon and the sea beast are one and the same upon where the Harlot sits, how would you refute that assumption?
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #87

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GoldenCup wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 3:27 pm the Red Dragon uses TWO BEASTS: the sea Beast and the earth Beast (aka False Prophet), as PUPPETS to do his bidding
GoldenCup wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 4:09 pmWhat I'm saying is that the scarlet beast and sea beast are one and the same not SEPARATE.
Okay , I just re-read what you said

1. The DRAGON : Satan
2. The SEA beast / aka The SCARLET is the beast upon which the woman sits
QUESTION #1 What does the SEA beast /the SCARLET beast represent?

QUESTION #2 If the SEA beast is presumed to be red because it is controlled by the Devil, is the EARTH beast not also red for the same reason?


RELATED POSTS

What are the differences between the SEA beast and the SCARLET BEAST?
viewtopic.php?p=1151625#p1151625
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #88

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GoldenCup wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 4:14 pm...the sea beast (which is scarlet colored) because of its connection to the red Dragon that controls it.
So you presume the beast is red solely on the basis that it is controlled by the Devil, despite the fact that John said it was " like a leopard "? There is no actual scripture that supports your colour assumption.
GoldenCup wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 3:27 pm The color connection between the dragon and the sea beast..
What "color connection between the dragon and the sea beast"? The sea beast is not described as red. Please provide a chapter and verse that creates a "color connection between the dragon and the sea beast"

Thanks

Rev 13:2 " Now the wild [ SEA] beast that I saw was like a leopard"
Image

So you deliberately refuse to even acknowledge that John's explicittly stated observation might be a reference to colour/appearance while doggedly imposing an assumption that is not based on any of his (John's) stated observations. This is conjecture and an extremely speculative theory not suppoerted by scripture.

Image

Do you think it wise in a book with so much precise imagery, to super impose imagery based on an unstated assumption ?

NOTE : KEY: What the Beasts represent (sees post --> # 128 )
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Jun 15, 2024 4:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #89

Post by GoldenCup »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #88]
So you presume the beast is red solely on the basis that it is controlled by the Devil, despite the fact that John said it was " like a leopard "? There is no actual scripture that supports your colour assumption.
NOT solely on the basis that the Great RED dragon gave it its power/throne/authority, but because of the clear similarities/connections made between the same beast mentioned in two separate visions found in Rev 13, and Rev. 17... John was shown two visions of the same beast, there was no need to repeat "body of leopard, feet of bear, and mouth of lion" a 2nd time, since its understood to be the same beast based on the SIMILAR characteristics THAT IT DOES MENTION. See below:

Rev. 13:1-2,
Then I saw a beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of the sea. There were ten royal crowns on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. The beast I saw was like a leopard, with the feet of a bear and the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.

Rev. 17:3 And the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, where I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns

Both beasts in Rev. 13 & 17 have Blasphemous names, 7 heads, and 10 horns

Is it necessary to repeat: Body of Leopard, feet of bear, and mouth of Lion for us to understand this is the same beast form the sea?

Daniel didn't give us the full details of the 4th beast that he saw except that it had great iron teeth and claws of brass, the other details were revealed by John. Does that mean that the beast that Daniel & John saw wasn't the same beast because certain details revealed in the book of Revlation are omitted in the book of Daniel? NO

In the same way, John not mentioning "Scarlet" in Revelation 13, doesn't mean it wasn't scarlet, or that it's a different beast from the one in Rev. 17, which does give us this detail.

Lastly, I have a question for you. You believe that the scarlet beast in Rev. 17 is the IMAGE of the Sea beast from Rev.13 correct? Therefore, the scarlet beast comes AFTER the sea beast chronologically? Please correct me if I'm wrong...

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Re: Daniel Vision vs Constantine the Great

Post #90

Post by JehovahsWitness »

GoldenCup wrote: Thu Jun 13, 2024 5:24 pmNOT solely on the basis that the Great RED dragon gave it its power/throne/authority, but because of the clear similarities... the SIMILAR characteristics ..
So your assumption ( unstated by John) that the SEA beast is the SCARLET beast is based in 3 things :

(a) both controlled by the Devil (so it must be red)
(b) 7 years / 10 horns (similarities)
(c) blasphemous (similarities)

Is the above correct? Anything else ?

QUESTION Do you completely reject any possibility that John's reference to the SEA BEAST being like a leopard might include its appearance / colour
NOTE : As John describes what he sees he mentions PHYSICAL characteristic (feet like a bear, month like a lion) it seems reasonable then that his description of it also being "like a leopard" not be limited to its behaviour but be linked with his the beast appeared.
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