God and time...

[Corvus]

This topic began in the Creationism vs Evolution forum when I challenged a statement by An Observer:

Time had to begin. To say otherwise is to say that time had no beginning, and that is the same as saying that the "beginning" of time was infinitely far in the past! But that does not make sense. If the "beginning" of time was infinitely far in the past, then the time required to get from the "beginning" of time to this point in time would be infinite! And we could never have gotten to this point in time! But, we are here at this point in time! Therefore, time had to have a beginning, that was not infinitely far in the past.

I have to hand it to you, Observer, you almost convinced me there, and that is a significantly rare occurence. But I still thought the argument flawed in a way, but I did not know how. Only now, several days later, did my subconscious brain discover why.

The reason I believe your argument is flawed is because it hangs finite time on an infinite clothesline. God would have to create, at one point in time in an existence where time does not exist, a timed narrative, and how could a timed narrative exist when it is part of a larger timeless narrative? And how does a timeless narrative exist coherently at all?

The common response to the argument of first causes is; "what caused the First Cause (God)?" The common answer is; "God is infinite and he exists outside of time, thus not requiring a cause". I believe this overlooks a step, and that is, the question of what caused the First Cause to cause an effect at all . If God is infinite and time has no meaning to him, what is the cause of his intent to create earth, and how does this required cause exist at all in chronological vacuum? The cause of the act of creating would have to exist at one point in non-time and not another. Phrased in the clearest way possible, I am asking; What provoked the First Cause to be the first cause? This may deserve its own topic.

His response:

......

The reason I believe your argument is flawed is because it hangs finite time on an infinite clothesline. God would have to create, at one point in time in an existence where time does not exist, a timed narrative, and how could a timed narrative exist when it is part of a larger timeless narrative? And how does a timeless narrative exist coherently at all?

.......

Maybe this does deserve its own topic .... but ... for the time being let me say that the "infinite clothsline" you reference is not made out of time! It is made out of logic (part of the nature of God).



To assert that there was a point in time when time did not exist is to assert the contradiction that:
1) time existed
and
2) time did not exist,
both at the same time.
The contradiction proves the assertion to be false.

Now, I certainly do not have all the details of how and why God created space and time (there are many mature theological explanations developed over the ages). However, I do know that space has no meaning without time, and time has no meaning without space. Time is measured via movement and changes of physical things. Physical changes are measured via time. Space and time are, in a sense, the same thing.

I also know that logic is not dependent upon the physical universe (space and time), but the physical universe (space and time) is dependent upon logic (among other things).

There are prerequisites of the physical universe, in the same way that the concept of a side of a triangle is a prerequisite of the concept of a triangle. The concept of the side is not necessarily temporally before the concept of a triangle. It is logically before the concept of a triangle. But, the concept of a triangle is not necessary for there to be a concept of a side. Therefore the concept of a side is a foundational to the triangle, not the other way around.

In the same way, logic is a prerequisite to the physical universe. The physical universe (space and time) is not a prerequisite to logic (part of the nature of God). God created the universe out of nothing (no space, time), not the other way around.

The question; Is God as a first cause a logical answer to the creation of the universe?

[Corvus]

Maybe this does deserve its own topic .... but ... for the time being let me say that the "infinite clothsline" you reference is not made out of time! It is made out of logic (part of the nature of God).

But as you stated earlier, Time is measured via movement and changes of physical things. Physical changes are measured via time. But why is that limited to physical changes? As soon as any single event happens, wouldn't time begin? How can there be any coherence if events, even supernatural ones, happen without any narrative structure? In the beginning, God created time, but without a narrative structure, one might as well say that during the end, middle, and anything else, time was created.

But let's just accept God occupies no time, and that the the infinite clothesline is logic. This logic would have spurred him on to create the world. But now we have a big problem. The creation of the earth is either an effect without a cause (as I argued when I asked what could have possibly provoked a being for whom time does not exist to create it), OR earth is logically necessary to a being who exists without time, which is to say when the being came into existence, so too did the earth, and since the being has always existed, voila, so too does the logical necessity of the earth. This would be the same as saying the beginning of the universe was infinitely far in the past, which, as you say, is impossible.

[An Observer]

Maybe this does deserve its own topic .... but ... for the time being let me say that the "infinite clothsline" you reference is not made out of time! It is made out of logic (part of the nature of God).

But as you stated earlier, Time is measured via movement and changes of physical things. Physical changes are measured via time. But why is that limited to physical changes?

Can you think of any changes that did-not, do-not, or will-not occur in time? ... I cannot. Maybe I am basing my argument on empirical evidence?

As soon as any single event happens, wouldn't time begin?

Yes, I would say this is true ... as with for example the postulated "big Bang".

How can there be any coherence if events, even supernatural ones, happen without any narrative structure?

For "God" all time is simultaneous. We are locked in time, God is not locked in time. Coherence-of-events presumes time. Narrative-structure presumes time. We need time, for coherence of events and narrative structure. That does not mean that God needs time.

In the beginning, God created time, but without a narrative structure, one might as well say that during the end, middle, and anything else, time was created.

If you are talking about the physical universe, I must say...
Absolutely!!!!!! I will also say .... "Amen!!!!"

But let's just accept God occupies no time, and that the the infinite clothesline is logic. This logic would have spurred him on to create the world.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't pretend to know the answer for sure. I certainly do not believe that God is logic. It seems, however, that logic is a part of the nature of God.

But now we have a big problem. The creation of the earth is either an effect without a cause (as I argued when I asked what could have possibly provoked a being for whom time does not exist to create it),

I know of no effects in time without a cause. Therefore, the cause of time must be outside of or transcend time.... To get to the reasons as to why God would choose to create time, I think we need to start a new thread, since the reasons, I suspect, are beyond philosophy. I think the proper subject area would be theology.

OR earth is logically necessary to a being who exists without time, which is to say when the being came into existence, so too did the earth, and since the being has always existed, voila, so too does the logical necessity of the earth. Saying the infinite clothesline is logic doesn't change a thing.

If you measure the existence of God via the dimension of time, then you would think that God came into existence when time began. Your measurements began when time began, and God was there, necessarily. And, you have no means of measuring "before" time. In other words, you cannot accurately measure something infinite with something finite!

Time is a necessary feature of the the physical universe. But it is not clear to me that the physical universe has to exist!!!!! The physical universe is not a necessary component of all that is.

[An Observer]

potwalloper. wrote:
Quote:
I also know that logic is not dependent upon the physical universe (space and time), but the physical universe (space and time) is dependent upon logic (among other things).


Out of interest why is the physical universe dependent upon logic? It could be argued that logic is simply conceptual and therefore would not exist without sentience; as such in a physical universe without sentient life forms logic would not exist.

everything is dependent upon logic (but not only logic).

That's nice. But it didn't answer the question. Why is everything dependent upon logic?

I do not know the answer.
But, I challenge you to point to anything real that is not logical!!!!
I think you will realize that you cannot even consider searching for something that is non-logical without using logic. Every thought in your head presumes the basics of logic.

If a branch of science is real, it is logical, and does not violate the law of non-contradiction.

What precisely is the law of non-contradiction? Although I would not consider myself to be an academic elite of sorts, I am in some relatively high level science classes (physics, chemistry, etc...) in college, and I've yet to hear of it.

The law of non-contradiction is a (actually it is THE) most basic law of philosophy.

To put it simply, it states:

Something cannot be and not be at the same time without redefinition of terms.

for example:

A ball cannot be a ball and not be a ball at the same time (unless the meaning of the words "ball" and "be" are changed between the first and second usage). Any violation of the law of non-contradiction results in nonsense, non thought, nihilism, meaninglessness.

[potwalloper.]

potwalloper. wrote:
Quote:
I also know that logic is not dependent upon the physical universe (space and time), but the physical universe (space and time) is dependent upon logic (among other things).


Out of interest why is the physical universe dependent upon logic? It could be argued that logic is simply conceptual and therefore would not exist without sentience; as such in a physical universe without sentient life forms logic would not exist.

everything is dependent upon logic (but not only logic).

That's nice. But it didn't answer the question. Why is everything dependent upon logic?

I do not know the answer.
But, I challenge you to point to anything real that is not logical!!!!
I think you will realize that you cannot even consider searching for something that is non-logical without using logic. Every thought in your head presumes the basics of logic.

But you said that everything in the universe is dependent upon logic. This is a very sweeping statement and you have not really answered my question.

The law of non-contradiction is a (actually it is THE) most basic law of philosophy.

To put it simply, it states:

Something cannot be and not be at the same time without redefinition of terms.

A subatomic particle can be both a particle and a wave at the same time. A subatomic particle can pass through both a left hand hole and a right hand hole at the same time, being neither left, nor right and both at the same time.

Logic as we know it does not necessarily apply at a quantum level...

...and in any case is logic not simply conceptual and as such has no effect on the physical universe in real terms and as I said before is purely dependent upon sentience?

[Corvus]

Maybe this does deserve its own topic .... but ... for the time being let me say that the "infinite clothsline" you reference is not made out of time! It is made out of logic (part of the nature of God).

But as you stated earlier, Time is measured via movement and changes of physical things. Physical changes are measured via time. But why is that limited to physical changes?

Can you think of any changes that did-not, do-not, or will-not occur in time? ... I cannot. Maybe I am basing my argument on empirical evidence?

As soon as any single event happens, wouldn't time begin?

Yes, I would say this is true ... as with for example the postulated "big Bang".

I think you missed my point. The big bang first started outside of time, when God decided to make such a thing. That would mean as soon as God first moved a finger, an event happened, narrative structure began, and so did God's Time, which is absolutely necessary, otherwise He would never get anywhere, much like your idea about time being infinitely far in the past.

How can there be any coherence if events, even supernatural ones, happen without any narrative structure?

For "God" all time is simultaneous. We are locked in time, God is not locked in time. Coherence-of-events presumes time. Narrative-structure presumes time. We need time, for coherence of events and narrative structure. That does not mean that God needs time.

He would if his actions are to have any logical coherence. Doesn't the existence of a time that is simultaneously past, present and future invalidate the law of non-contradiction you just mentioned?

In the beginning, God created time, but without a narrative structure, one might as well say that during the end, middle, and anything else, time was created.

If you are talking about the physical universe, I must say...
Absolutely!!!!!! I will also say .... "Amen!!!!"

Then how is this any different then your claim that; If the "beginning" of time was infinitely far in the past, then the time required to get from the "beginning" of time to this point in time would be infinite! And we could never have gotten to this point in time! But, we are here at this point in time! Therefore, time had to have a beginning, that was not infinitely far in the past.? If time has an existence that is in the past, present and future, why are we here at all?

But now we have a big problem. The creation of the earth is either an effect without a cause (as I argued when I asked what could have possibly provoked a being for whom time does not exist to create it),

I know of no effects in time without a cause. Therefore, the cause of time must be outside of or transcend time.... To get to the reasons as to why God would choose to create time, I think we need to start a new thread, since the reasons, I suspect, are beyond philosophy. I think the proper subject area would be theology.

Not at all. I believe they are a related matter, and trust me when I say that threads with specific topics have been allowed a great amount of leniency in the past, since questions that arrive in them usually they are related in such a way that to separate them would not allow any progress in the topic.

Choice is a curious word to use here, since, again, that presumes a narrative, and God requires no narrative.

But, regardless of what is God's actual intent, it is safe to say that nothing could have provoked him to create the universe. That desire would have had to come from himself. If it came from himself, then it would have had to always have existed, like him, and if it had to have always existed, that is enough to say, as you claim is an illogical impossibility, that the beginning of time is infinitely far in the past.

OR earth is logically necessary to a being who exists without time, which is to say when the being came into existence, so too did the earth, and since the being has always existed, voila, so too does the logical necessity of the earth. Saying the infinite clothesline is logic doesn't change a thing.

If you measure the existence of God via the dimension of time, then you would think that God came into existence when time began. Your measurements began when time began, and God was there, necessarily. And, you have no means of measuring "before" time. In other words, you cannot accurately measure something infinite with something finite!

But I am not measuring the existence of God via the dimension of time. I am saying that a volition cannot exist at one point in non-time and not in another. So the volition must exist at all times. Something infinite that exists without time can only logically create something infinite. Otherwise his actions in creating time only make him subject to a narrative that most certainly cannot exist in his special case.

Time is a necessary feature of the the physical universe. But it is not clear to me that the physical universe has to exist!!!!! The physical universe is not a necessary component of all that is.

But the universe does exist, as you claim, by the desire of a God. And since it exists, it is necessary for it to exist. It certainly could not come about by accident or in response to something else. And since it is necessary to exist, it must exist at all times.

[Tigerlilly]

Well. As I have learned, Time was a product of the Big Bang and the expansion of the universe.

[An Observer]

The law of non-contradiction is a (actually it is THE) most basic law of philosophy.

To put it simply, it states:

Something cannot be and not be at the same time without redefinition of terms.

A subatomic particle can be both a particle and a wave at the same time. A subatomic particle can pass through both a left hand hole and a right hand hole at the same time, being neither left, nor right and both at the same time.

Logic as we know it does not necessarily apply at a quantum level...

...and in any case is logic not simply conceptual and as such has no effect on the physical universe in real terms and as I said before is purely dependent upon sentience?

Logic as we know it applies ABSOLUTELY at the quantum level.

Your examples are not contradictions. The are called paradoxes. Paradoxes do not only exist at the quantum level. They even exist at the Macroscopic level. The ball in my example can be two things at the same time. It can be a ball and it can be a paperweight at the same time without redefinition of terms. Someone lacking the mental dexterity necessary to understand why someone might use a ball as a paperweight, might think it odd that the ball would be used as a paperweight. But he would certainly not be justified in claiming the use of the ball as a paperweight to be a contradiction.

There is no contradiction when photons, for example, manifest themselves as both waves and particles. It is merely a paradox.

There would be a contradiction if the photons manifest themselves to be photons and to NOT be photons at the same time in the same way.

Further, your example of the subatomic particle passing through holes exposes deficiencies with the current model used to explain observed data. It does not expose a contradiction.

I have never heard of an experiment that demonstrated a contradiction at the sub-atomic level.

All science (including sub-atomic particle science) is based on a presumption that the universe is logical. When scientists discover apparent contradictions (or paradoxes) they know it is time to do more research, collect more data, and create new models to explain the phenomena .

[An Observer]

.....

I think you missed my point. The big bang first started outside of time, when God decided to make such a thing. That would mean as soon as God first moved a finger, an event happened, narrative structure began, and so did God's Time, which is absolutely necessary, otherwise He would never get anywhere, much like your idea about time being infinitely far in the past.

I don't claim to know how God existed outside of time. I only claim to know that existence outside of time must be possible in order for there to be time. The source of time must be outside of time.

(As a related note, have you ever heard of Godel's Theorem?)

.

How can there be any coherence if events, even supernatural ones, happen without any narrative structure?

For "God" all time is simultaneous. We are locked in time, God is not locked in time. Coherence-of-events presumes time. Narrative-structure presumes time. We need time, for coherence of events and narrative structure. That does not mean that God needs time.

He would if his actions are to have any logical coherence. Doesn't the existence of a time that is simultaneously past, present and future invalidate the law of non-contradiction you just mentioned?

I don't think there is a violation.

Everything in time must be logically coherent because time is built on logic and causality. But, logical coherence is not built on time. Logic is a prerequisite of time, not the other way around.

.

In the beginning, God created time, but without a narrative structure, one might as well say that during the end, middle, and anything else, time was created.

If you are talking about the physical universe, I must say...
Absolutely!!!!!! I will also say .... "Amen!!!!"

Then how is this any different then your claim that; If the "beginning" of time was infinitely far in the past, then the time required to get from the "beginning" of time to this point in time would be infinite! And we could never have gotten to this point in time! But, we are here at this point in time! Therefore, time had to have a beginning, that was not infinitely far in the past.? If time has an existence that is in the past, present and future, why are we here at all?

I don't think that the past, present, and future exist at the same time. I think it is logically necessary that the the past, present, and future be "observable" from a "dimension" that is orthorgonal to the dimension of time.

But now we have a big problem. The creation of the earth is either an effect without a cause (as I argued when I asked what could have possibly provoked a being for whom time does not exist to create it),

I know of no effects in time without a cause. Therefore, the cause of time must be outside of or transcend time.... To get to the reasons as to why God would choose to create time, I think we need to start a new thread, since the reasons, I suspect, are beyond philosophy. I think the proper subject area would be theology.

Not at all. I believe they are a related matter, and trust me when I say that threads with specific topics have been allowed a great amount of leniency in the past, since questions that arrive in them usually they are related in such a way that to separate them would not allow any progress in the topic.

Choice is a curious word to use here, since, again, that presumes a narrative, and God requires no narrative.

But, regardless of what is God's actual intent, it is safe to say that nothing could have provoked him to create the universe. That desire would have had to come from himself. If it came from himself, then it would have had to always have existed, like him, and if it had to have always existed, that is enough to say, as you claim is an illogical impossibility, that the beginning of time is infinitely far in the past.

"Choice" necessarily implies "will" and logical coherence,..... but not necessarily time and temporal causality!

Why God "willed" to create time is a question of theology. I think I would be more comfortable relying on someone like Saint Augustine.

OR earth is logically necessary to a being who exists without time, which is to say when the being came into existence, so too did the earth, and since the being has always existed, voila, so too does the logical necessity of the earth. Saying the infinite clothesline is logic doesn't change a thing.

If you measure the existence of God via the dimension of time, then you would think that God came into existence when time began. Your measurements began when time began, and God was there, necessarily. And, you have no means of measuring "before" time. In other words, you cannot accurately measure something infinite with something finite!

But I am not measuring the existence of God via the dimension of time. I am saying that a volition cannot exist at one point in non-time and not in another. So the volition must exist at all times. Something infinite that exists without time can only logically create something infinite. Otherwise his actions in creating time only make him subject to a narrative that most certainly cannot exist in his special case.

The above paragraph is not clear to me. It is not clear to me that something infinite can only create something infinite.

But, again, I do not pretend to know philosophically how or why God created space and time. I only claim to know that space and time were created (and is being created), and therefore had (has) a creator, who exists outside of his creation.

Time is a necessary feature of the the physical universe. But it is not clear to me that the physical universe has to exist!!!!! The physical universe is not a necessary component of all that is.

But the universe does exist, as you claim, by the desire of a God. And since it exists, it is necessary for it to exist. It certainly could not come about by accident or in response to something else. And since it is necessary to exist, it must exist at all times.

I agree that the universe (space and matter) existed at all times. I do not agree that time encapsulates all of existence.

[mrmufin]

I don't claim to know how God existed outside of time. I only claim to know that existence outside of time must be possible in order for there to be time. The source of time must be outside of time.

Not if time is a coordinate function given meaning by observers within a particular frame of reference.

(As a related note, have you ever heard of Godel's Theorem?)

Which of Gödel's theorems is related to time?

Everything in time must be logically coherent because time is built on logic and causality. But, logical coherence is not built on time. Logic is a prerequisite of time, not the other way around.

Logic is a tool of language used to put boundaries on statements. Are you able to demonstrate the existence of any axiomatic logical system which predates and/or is independent of language?

Regards,
mrmufin