The Crucifixion:
I wrote the following some 25 years ago. I do not recall the name of the doctor who did the research concerning the human body when put through the torture of crucifixion. But I remember how it moved me. We read casually about the punishment and crucifixion, not fully getting the impact and degree of suffering.
The Persians between 539 B.C. and 335 B.C. were the inventors of the Crucifixion. They tied their victims to a single stake and left them there to die a slow and agonizing death. Eventually, around 100 B.C., the Romans picked up on this form of torture and death, then brought it to a new level of pain and eventual death. The word ‘excruciating’ did not exist until Christ was crucified. Excruciating interpreted means, “Pain out of the cross.”
Jesus' suffering began in earnest at Gethsemane. It was the day before the Jewish Passover, in early April of 31 A.D. Luke 22:44, “And being in agony he (Jesus) prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood.” because blood may have been mixed with his sweat, he would have been under great physiological stress.
He was then blindfolded and then taken to the high priest’s palace where he was falsely accused of blasphemy, spit on, and beaten. He was then taken to Pilate, and here was Pilate’s offer to the people.
Matthew 27:17, “Who will you that I release unto you? Barabbas or Jesus which is called Christ? And the crowd answered “Barabbas.” They also cried out, “Let his blood be on us, and on our children.”
Barabbas means “son of the Father.” The people called for the “son of God, so they called for Barabbas. The Roman soldiers mocked him, stripped him, put a scarlet robe on him, then made a crown of thorns and placed it on his head. The thorns that grow in that area are two inches in length. The soldiers would have pressed the thorns down on his head cutting deeply into the flesh. They then bowed down mocking him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!”
Isaiah gives further details concerning Jesus' punishment. Isaiah 53:3, He was despised, rejected,” --- Verse 4, “Surely he hath born our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten”--- wounded, bruised, and “with his stripes” we are healed.”
The Roman whip consists of three braided pieces of rawhide, attached to a round wooden handle, the last 12 inches were not braided. At the ends of the three lashes were tied pieces of sheep bone and iron lead balls. The iron balls would cause deep contusions in the skin tissue, and the bone would cause deep lacerations in the skin, tendons, and muscles under the skin.
The victim was tied to a post, and the Roman soldier doing the lashing would whip the upper back and work their way down the legs. He would move to the other side and repeat his work. When finished, there would be deep cuts and trauma to the back and legs. The blood loss would be significant, causing a significant drop in his blood pressure. Normally 39 lashes were required by law, but the Romans were not obligated to Jewish law, and depending on their mood no count was necessary.
The crossbeam Jesus carried is estimated to weigh 75 to 100 lbs. When they arrived where the sentence was to be carried out, the crossbeam was nailed to the vertical beam that lay on the ground. He was then laid down on top of the vertical beam his arms in a horizontal position before being nailed to it. The nails used were about 6” long and ¼ inch square. They were driven into the wrist just below the carpal bones, considered part of the hand back then. The nails crushed the median nerve and carpal tunnel causing a great deal of excruciating pain. Then the feet were nailed down into the vertical beam. But before they were nailed down, the knees would have to be bent to bring the feet down flat on the beam. The driven nail would crush the medial plantar nerve causing great pain throughout his body.
When finished, the vertical beam was lifted and set in place. When this happened, the weight of Jesus' body would be pulled downward, placing a great deal of pressure on the elbow and shoulder joints, as well as the nails in his feet being driven up into the bones of the feet. It is estimated that the load on his elbow and shoulder joints was between 150 to 200 lbs. on each arm. This would cause the bones of his joints to separate, lengthening his arms six inches. What prevented the arms from tearing off were the tendons and muscles.
In this position, breathing out was much more difficult than breathing in. To exhale, the Lord had to push down on the nails holding his feet to the beam to raise himself. Each time he would make this move, the open flesh on his back would rub up and down on the beam.
Eventually, in his condition, the blood became filled with carbon dioxide causing him to suffocate. Also, from the loss of blood, he would become very thirsty as his tongue would cleave to the roof of his mouth. Due to the loss of blood, he would go into bulimic shock and eventually die of heart failure.
The Roman guard then plunged a spear into the right side of his heart causing blood and water to come out through the wound, proving that he was dead. If he had been alive, they would have broken both of his legs.
So, the next time you look at, or speak of the man hanging from the cross, understand fully what he suffered for every one of us. Also, have you ever considered how the Lord feels when we fail him in words, deeds, motives, and love?
The Roman Crucifixion
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Re: The Roman Crucifixion
Post #41I posted something similar to this yesterday, but don't see it, so I'm posting again. Was Jesus crucified on a single post?historia wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2025 8:01 pmJehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 5:56 pmI would be interested in the actual evidence Mr Brown presentedhistoria wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2024 1:15 pm
Consider Raymond Brown's magisterial two-volume work on the crucifixion, The Death of the Messiah (1994).
On pages 947-49 he treats the question "On What Type of Cross was Jesus Crucified?" Speaking of Roman crucifixion in the first century, he notes:
Brown wrote:
Occasionally just an upright stake was used, and the condemned's hands were raised vertically and nailed extended above his head. (This is not what happened in Jesus' case, since he carried a cross[beam] to the place of execution.)
Okay, let's get into the details here.onewithhim wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2025 9:24 am
I'm just curious. Where do you get the idea that Jesus carried his "cross-beam" to his execution?
First, a note on methodology: What we are trying to do in any historical analysis is to determine which hypothesis best explains the available evidence in light of our background knowledge.
That last part -- our background knowledge -- is where we have to start. We have to first determine what was common or typical in a given time and place before we look at the evidence for the specific event in question.
Historical accounts are sometimes ambiguous, so, unless the evidence clearly shows that what happened was out of the ordinary, we would have to say that what was common or typical best explains the evidence. It is, in that way, our default explanation.
Second, the Latin language had precise terms to describe the various elements of Roman crucifixion.
(Greek, on the other hand, did not -- more on that later.)
In particular, in Latin, there were separate terms to describe the vertical beam (crux) and the horizontal crossbeam (patibulum) that were often used in Roman crucifixion.
Those terms were also used to describe the resulting "cross" that the two beams would form when put together -- which by itself shows how common the "cross" shape was in Roman crucifixion. But it's usually clear, in context, whether the author is referring to just the vertical beam (crux), just the horizontal crossbeam (patibulum), or both together.
Third, we have a number of sources that tell us about this practice that was sometimes used in Roman crucifixion where the person condemned to die was first tied to a wooden beam and then usually whipped or scourged before being forced to carry that beam through the streets of the city to their eventual crucifixion site.
Here are some examples of that with the original Latin text and an English translation. I've also noted the date of the text to show this was common well before the first century AD, so not just typical of later Roman crucifixion practices.
Titus Maccius Plautus, Mostellari, 55-57 (c. 225–185 BC):
Titus Maccius Plautus, Carbonaria fr. 2 (c. 225–185 BC):Plautus wrote:
O butcher's sieve, which I believe it will become, they will pierce you through and through as you carry the crossbeam through the streets, with goads from the executioners, if the old man returns here.
O carnuficium cribrum, quod credo fore, ita te forabunt patibulatum per vias, stimulis carnufices, si huc reveniat senex.
Lex Puteolana II.8-10 (c. 27 BC to 14 AD)Plautus wrote:
Let him carry the crossbeam through the city, then let him be affixed to the vertical beam.
Patibulum ferat per urbem, deinde adfigatur cruci.
Clodius Licinus, Libri rerum Romanarum 21 (c. 50-70 AD), quoted by Nonius in De compendiosa doctrina:Lex Puteolana wrote:
Whoever will want to exact punishment on a male or female slave at private expense, as he [the owner] who wants it to be inflicted, he [the contractor] exacts the punishment in this manner: if he wants him to lead the crossbeam to the vertical beam, the contractor will have to provide wooden posts, chains, and cords for the floggers and the floggers themselves. And anyone who will want to exact punishment will have to give four sesterces for each of the workers who bring the crossbeam and for the floggers and also for the executioner.
Qui supplicium de seruo seruaue priuatim sumere uolet uti is qui sumi uolet, ita supplicium sumet; si in crucem | patibulus agere uolet redemptor asseres uincula restes uerberatoribus et uerberatores praebere debeto, et | quisquis supplicium sumet pro operis singulis quae patibulum ferunt uerberatoribusque item carnifice HS IIII dare debeto
Notice that in all of these examples, the author explicitly tells us that what the condemned person carried to the site of their crucifixion was the patibulum, the horizontal crossbeam. When they get to the crucifixion site, the crux, the vertical beam, is already there.Licinus wrote:
One fastens to crossbeams. People are fastened and led around and then are nailed to a vertical beam.
deligat ad patibulos. deligantur et circumferuntur, cruci defiguntur.
As several scholars point out, there are no classical Latin sources that say condemned individuals carried a crux, or vertical beam, to their crucifixion.
Fourth, material science seems to indicate it would be unlikely one person could carry the vertical beam for any significant distance.
placebofactor and servant1 have already addressed this point above:
placebofactor wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2025 11:56 am
The Romans did not have lumber yards to make 4x4 or 6x6es. They were tree trunks; they were heavy, and the vertical post was at least 10 feet in length. Go in your backyard and try lifting a 10-foot log.
Now, I don't know exactly how tall or exactly how heavy the vertical beam typically was, but these seem like reasonable estimates to me.
(servant1 is, of course, talking here about a "cross," but doesn't seem to realize that the vast majority of the weight in a "cross" is in the vertical beam, not the horizontal crossbeam, so this is as much an argument against the plausibility of carrying a vertical beam as a "cross.")
The vertical beam would have to be not only taller than the individual being crucified, in most cases with their arms stretched above them -- otherwise their feet would touch the ground -- but several feet taller than that, since part of the goal of crucifixion was to raise the person up off the ground for display. But it has to be even taller than that, since the vertical pole was likely sunk into a hole in the ground so it could stand upright on its own. If the average adult male at that time was 5 feet tall, 10 feet for the vertical beam seems entirely reasonable.
The vertical beam would also have to be sturdy enough to hold the weight of an individual, usually for several days. And these poles were most likely reused for many crucifixions. We're talking here about a heavy piece of timber -- probably a roughly hewn tree trunk, as placebofactor suggested.
The crossbeam, by comparison, is much shorter: probably only three or four feet long. That is also a rather heavy piece of wood, and difficult to carry if you had not eaten for days or had been heavily scourged before being forced to carry it. But it is much more plausible that one could carry a beam of that size through the streets.
This is, as we saw above, also what the historical sources say people carried to a crucifixion site. So that all makes perfect sense.
Fifth, if someone was carrying a crossbeam to their crucifixion, then they were most likely crucified on a "cross," not just a vertical beam.
The whole point of carrying the crossbeam to the place of crucifixion is to use it as part of the crucifixion. The condemned individual would have their hands tied or nailed to the crossbeam, before being placed or hoisted onto the vertical beam, to which their feet would then be nailed or bound.
Conclusion:
Given our background knowledge, if we come across a first century account of someone being scourged and forced to carry a beam of wood as part of a Roman crucifixion -- regardless of who that is -- we would have to say, a priori, that what is likely being described in that account is that the person was carrying a crossbeam, since that is by all accounts what was common or typical, and so that person was likely crucified on a "cross."
When we look at the actual accounts of this event -- we'll look at the gospels and other early Christian sources next -- we may find that they tell us something different. But, unless those accounts clearly show that what happened in that specific crucifixion was out of the ordinary, we would have to say that what was common or typical best explains the evidence.
Agreed?
Let’s take a close look at the reality of a single post. The average Jew in Jesus day was short, about 5’ 5” or 5’ 6”. Weighed between 140 and 150. They were not like Americans today, tall, fat, and strong, but out of shape. Jesus was about 33 ½ years of age.
Now if crucified with his hands above his head, we would need at least another 18” more than his height. So, 5’6” + 18” = 7 feet. Above his hands was a sign, “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.” Now let's add one foot for the posted sign. Now we have the 7 + 1 = 8 foot. A pole would have to be placed into the ground at least 4’ for it to stand upright, especially with the weight of a man nailed to it. So now we would have at a minimum a 12-foot post. Let’s also say this post was a light wood made of Pine. Fir and cypress were the wood around Jerusalem.
The circumference would have to be at least four feet. So, we have a post 12’ high and 3' or 4’ in circumference or I’3” diameter. I checked with a builder who is a Jehovah’s Witness, a good friend of mine. He said a log that big would weigh 650 Lbs. Let’s cut that in half to 325 Lbs. No one man having been beaten, whipped, had a loss of blood, no water to drink, weighting 150 Lbs. could carry a post that size ½ mile.
But a horizontal post, 6’ or 7’ long would be a reasonable weight for a small person to carry.
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Re: The Roman Crucifixion
Post #42I didnt mean I am completely disinterested obviously but your approach and premise (that secular sources provide the deciding factor to our take on scriptural ambiguity ) is not one I hold.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Jan 11, 2025 2:15 pm
I'm not interested in a "historical analysis" but a biblical one.
Yes, words do have multiple meanings but if the bible writers wrote "stauros" and there is some ambiguity of what they meant, it is for scripture to settled the matter. If the matter cannot be thus settled , then it will remain ambiguous (which is not in my opinion the case here). The favor is not given to secular sources* , but to the biblically historical understanding.
If the greek scriptures reference or quote from a Hebrew passage refering undoubtedly to a single pole/blank, and related that Hebrew passage to (or implied that was related to) the execution of Christ, then its game over. Simple.* For example, if 2000 years from now people dug up this forum and noticed 99% of posts refering to "Jesus" were refering one part of a truine god, as confirmed by numerous documented sources (not least of which being the Vatican) and found this to be official "christian" doctrine. Would any of that be decisive in understaning a page found in a Watchtower magazine from the same period?
The analysis remains primarily internal (what is the root meaning of the word ? what is the root meaning of its Hebrew equivalent (as established by the septuguint)? Is there anything in scripture that imposes a shift or evolution of that original biblical usage ? (If not, regardless of external usage), the original meaning as established above , stands. Does the narrative support the conclusion (for example in this case, do the the gospel narratives suggest the possibillity that the Roman governor may have made any concessions to Jewish tradition regarding choice of execution method) ....
Additional, not decisive considerations, are indeed : Is there anything that renders this biblical conclusion physically impossible? And, merely as a matter of interest , how does this agree or contrast with secular sources from the period?
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Re: The Roman Crucifixion
Post #43Does the bible narrative say Jesus was able to carry the stauros or was he finally he unable to do so?placebofactor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:20 pm No one man having been beaten, whipped, had a loss of blood, no water to drink, weighting 150 Lbs. could carry a post that size ½ mile.
"The matter of one man like Simon of Cyrene bearing a torture stake, as the Scriptures say, is perfectly reasonable, for if it was six inches (15 centimeters) in diameter and twelve feet (3.6 meters) long, it probably weighed little more than a hundred pounds (45 kilograms).—Mark 15:21." Insight on the scriptures Vol II p. 825 pub Watchtower Society

100-120Ilbs is about the weight of an average sized woman. In good health I think the average man (for example Simon of Cyrene) could probably carry a woman of that weight for some miles even if she had fainted and was "dead weight" , and if he dragged her (her feet trailing along the ground) probably even further. It would certainly not be physically impossible
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PS I presume a crossbeam would have been equivanent to the apex of the average man which , while still representing a challenge , might in theory have arguably been managable for a Jesus even in a weakened state.
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Re: The Roman Crucifixion
Post #44J.W. I was curious how honest you were about the facts, your answer above tells me you're not interested in the truth, only what you're trying to sell. Add this to what follows. How far off the ground do you think Jesus' feet were while hanging from the cross, 2 feet, 3 feet? Let's compromise, 2 1/2 feet. Now, add 2 1/2 feet of tree trunk to the 12 feet I spoke of before. Now it would be a 14 1/2-foot log: minimum weight, 400 Lbs. You say 100 Lbs., You must think they used Balsa wood or hollowed the inside of the pole out. Take a 14 1/2-foot telephone pole, there is no way one man can carry it. For a 14 1/2-foot pole to remain upright, one-third of its length would have to be secured into the ground. There is nothing in the Bible saying Jesus dug a hole in the ground to secure the pole. The ground around Jerusalem is hard and stony, the hole had to be dug before, and the vertical pole secured into the ground before he arrived.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 12:53 amDoes the bible narrative say Jesus was able to carry the stauros or was he finally he unable to do so?placebofactor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:20 pm No one man having been beaten, whipped, had a loss of blood, no water to drink, weighting 150 Lbs. could carry a post that size ½ mile.
"The matter of one man like Simon of Cyrene bearing a torture stake, as the Scriptures say, is perfectly reasonable, for if it was six inches (15 centimeters) in diameter and twelve feet (3.6 meters) long, it probably weighed little more than a hundred pounds (45 kilograms).—Mark 15:21." Insight on the scriptures Vol II p. 825 pub Watchtower Society
100-120Ilbs is about the weight of an average sized woman. In good health I think the average man (for example Simon of Cyrene) could probably carry a woman of that weight for some miles even if she had fainted and was "dead weight" , and if he dragged her (her feet trailing along the ground) probably even further. It would certainly not be physically impossible
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
PS I presume a crossbeam would have been equivanent to the apex of the average man which , while still representing a challenge , might in theory have arguably been managable for a Jesus even in a weakened state.
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I know you're going to deny this, but I say it anyway. Luke 23:33, "And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left." If Jesus' hands were above his head, they would not have said, one on his right hand and one on his left. It would be more accurate to say, one on his right SIDE the other on his left SIDE.
More bad news, the builder who I said was a friend of mine, a Jehovah's Witness who gave me this information admitted that one man could not have carried a 14 1/2 foot tree trunk the size of a telephone pole. He would not admit to a cross, but at least he was honest about saying one man could not have carried that much weight 1/2 mile.
When I went through Marine Corp. training, we had a ten-foot-long 400 lb. log Four Marines had to lift it and carry it 100 yards. I believe three of us could have done the job. Two very large men who lift weights all day may have been able to, but one man, NO-WAY! Again, Jews back then were small people, 5' 6" maybe 5" 8", no more. 150 lbs, maybe, probably closer to 140. I will repeat what I said above.
Let’s take a close look at the reality of a single post. The average Jew in Jesus day was short, about 5’ 5” or 5’ 6”. Weighed between 140 and 150. They were not like Americans today, tall, fat, and strong, but out of shape. Jesus was about 33 ½ years of age.
Now if crucified with his hands above his head, we would need at least another 18” more than his height. So, 5’6” + 18” = 7 feet. Above his hands was a sign, “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.” Now let's add one foot for the posted sign. Now we have the 7 + 1 = 8 foot. A pole would have to be placed into the ground at least 4’ for it to stand upright, especially with the weight of a man nailed to it. So now we would have at a minimum a 12-foot post. Let’s also say this post was a light wood made of Pine. Fir and cypress were the wood around Jerusalem.
The circumference would have to be at least four feet. So, we have a post 12’ high and 3' or 4’ in circumference or I’3” diameter. I checked with a builder who is a Jehovah’s Witness, a good friend of mine. He said a log that big would weigh 650 Lbs. Let’s cut that in half to 325 Lbs. No one man having been beaten, whipped, had a loss of blood, no water to drink, weighting 150 Lbs. could carry a post that size ½ mile.
But a horizontal post, 6’ or 7’ long would be a reasonable weight for a small person to carry.
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Re: The Roman Crucifixion
Post #45HOW HEAVY WAS THE STAUROS?

We cannot possibly know exactly but to make a rough approximation see below :
LENGTH : According to a 2018 study [1] a mans overhead reach can be calculate at 1.40×h+11.22; so a 6ft (183cm) man would have a maximum reach of about 8.5 feet. Obviously this is from feet to fingertips but jesus was probably attached by his wrists which were certainly not fully extended (if the victim was stretched to this maximum and suspended he would die in minutes), so even allowing for a very tall man, only about 8 feet of exposed wood would be necessary to execute with maximum economy of material¤. If one third its length needed to be imbedded into the ground for stability, a 12 foot pole, imbedded 4 feet into the ground would leave more than enough wood exposed to nail a 6 ft man* and a sign.
* Jesus may well have been several inches short of 6ft.


source : https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wood ... _1834.html
MATERIAL
The Romans would have used any suitable wood locally available for their executions. Archaeologist Vassilios Tzaferis' famous 1968 heel bone excavation, dating from first century Jerusalem [2], established that olive wood was used at the time and would of course have been abundant in the region.
The website "The wood database" [3] lists European Olivewood (Olea europaea) as weighing an average of 61.2 lbs per cubic foot (980 kg per cubic meter) when dried. Using Olivewood as an example, we can do the following calculations.
CALCULATION
VARIANTS

We cannot possibly know exactly but to make a rough approximation see below :
LENGTH : According to a 2018 study [1] a mans overhead reach can be calculate at 1.40×h+11.22; so a 6ft (183cm) man would have a maximum reach of about 8.5 feet. Obviously this is from feet to fingertips but jesus was probably attached by his wrists which were certainly not fully extended (if the victim was stretched to this maximum and suspended he would die in minutes), so even allowing for a very tall man, only about 8 feet of exposed wood would be necessary to execute with maximum economy of material¤. If one third its length needed to be imbedded into the ground for stability, a 12 foot pole, imbedded 4 feet into the ground would leave more than enough wood exposed to nail a 6 ft man* and a sign.
* Jesus may well have been several inches short of 6ft.

DIMENSIONS According to the website elitetrimworks.com the loadbearing capacity in pounds of a wooden column 6'inches in diameter is 4,000 lbs¤ NOTE The Romans were extremely efficient and there is no reason to think they would have wasted time and resources suspending the execution victim 2.5 off the ground, if the end could be achieve with less. From the moment the victim was off the ground, even if it were a matter of inches , the inevitable would have been achieved.

source : https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wood ... _1834.html
Following the above engineering chart a wooden post 6x6 inches (15cm) should be able to support 1800 lbs (18 kips) in weight so there is no doubt at all that a pole /beam of 6x6 inches could easily support the weight of an adult male
MATERIAL
The Romans would have used any suitable wood locally available for their executions. Archaeologist Vassilios Tzaferis' famous 1968 heel bone excavation, dating from first century Jerusalem [2], established that olive wood was used at the time and would of course have been abundant in the region.
The website "The wood database" [3] lists European Olivewood (Olea europaea) as weighing an average of 61.2 lbs per cubic foot (980 kg per cubic meter) when dried. Using Olivewood as an example, we can do the following calculations.
CALCULATION
A 12 foot pole of olivewood, with a circumference of 15 cm would give us a volume of 2.36 cubic feet (about 3 cubic feet for a beam). So at a weight of 61.2 lbs per cubic foot, the stauros would have weighed approximately 140 to 185 lbs depending on its shape.![]()
VARIANTS
Or course lighter woods (the lightest of which is cedar) is also a possibility :
CEDAR 20-23 Ibs/ m3 (×3) = 60-69 Ibs
CYPRESS 32 Ibs/ m3 (x3) = 98 Ibs
CONCLUSION Depending in the actual dimensions and material used, a full length stauros could have weighed anything from 60 to 185 pounds. Choosing a medium of the two extemes (60+185/2) we come to a conservative guess of just over 100 Ibs. (122.5)Is it reasonable to believe that the Romans would have chosen one of the ultra heavy woods available? If dragging the stauros through the streets was part of the humiliation ritual , serving as a warning to others, its unlikely the Romans would have chosen a wood too heavy for a man to actually move. And since the purpose was to execute the victim on a wood that, in the desired proportions, would support his weight , no additional value would have been added by choosing an ultra heavy wood better suited for construction or defensive purposes
FURTHER READING
placebofactor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:20 pmNow if crucified with his hands above his head, we would need at least another 18” more than his height. So, 5’6” + 18” = 7 feet. Above his hands was a sign, “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.” Now let's add one foot for the posted sign. Now we have the 7 + 1 = 8 foot. A pole would have to be placed into the ground at least 4’ for it to stand upright, especially with the weight of a man nailed to it. So now we would have at a minimum a 12-foot post.
Emphasis MINEInsight on the scriptures pub. Watchtower Society wrote:"... if it was six inches (15 centimeters) in diameter and twelve feet (3.6 meters) long, it probably weighed little more than a hundred pounds (45 kilograms).—Mark 15:21." Vol II p. 825
To learn more please go to other posts related to
THE RANSOM SACRIFICE , THE EXECUTION OF CHRIST and ... MEMORIAL OF CHRIST'S DEATH
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: The Roman Crucifixion
Post #46It's 12 feet if Jesus' feet touched the ground, 15 feet if his feet were 3 feet off the ground, so you need to add a little weight to your cross. That's a pretty skinny pole 6" you're hanging a man on.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 7:23 pm HOW HEAVY WAS THE STAUROS?
We cannot possibly know exactly but to make a rough approximation see below :
LENGTH : According to a 2018 study [1] a mans overhead reach can be calculate at 1.40×h+11.22; so a 6ft (183cm) man would have a maximum reach of about 8.5 feet. Obviously this is from feet to fingertips but jesus was probably attached by his wrists which were certainly not fully extended (if the victim was stretched to this maximum and suspended he would die in minutes), so even allowing for a very tall man, only about 8 feet of exposed wood would be necessary to execute with maximum economy of material¤. If one third its length needed to be imbedded into the ground for stability, a 12 foot pole, imbedded 4 feet into the ground would leave more than enough wood exposed to nail a 6 ft man* and a sign.
* Jesus may well have been several inches short of 6ft.
¤ NOTE The Romans were extremely efficient and there is no reason to think they would have wasted time and resources suspending the execution victim 2.5 off the ground, if the end could be achieve with less. From the moment the victim was off the ground, even if it were a matter of inches , the inevitable would have been achieved.
MATERIAL
The Romans would have used any suitable wood locally available for their executions. Archaeologist Vassilios Tzaferis' famous 1968 heel bone excavation, dating from first century Jerusalem [2], established that olive wood was used at the time and would of course have been abundant in the region.
The website "The wood database" [3] lists European Olivewood (Olea europaea) as weighing an average of 61.2 lbs per cubic foot (980 kg per cubic meter) when dried. Using Olivewood as an example, we can do the following calculations.
CALCULATION
A 12 foot pole of olivewood, with a circumference of 15 cm would give us a volume of 2.36 cubic feet (about 3 cubic feet for a beam). So at a weight of 61.2 lbs per cubic foot, the stauros would have weighed approximately 140 to 185 lbs depending on its shape.![]()
If dragging the stauros through the streets was part of the humiliation ritual , serving as a warning to others, its unlikely the Romans would have chosen a wood too heavy for a man to actually move.
Or course lighter woods (the lightest of which is cedar) is also a possibility :
CEDAR 20-23 Ibs/ m3 (×3) = 60-69 Ibs
CYPRESS 32 Ibs/ m3 (x3) = 98 Ibs
CONCLUSION Depending in the actual dimensions and material used, a full length stauros could have weighed anything from 60 to 185 pounds. Choosing a medium of the two extemes (60+185/2) we come to a conservative guess of just over 100 Ibs. (122.5)
FURTHER READING
placebofactor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2025 6:20 pmNow if crucified with his hands above his head, we would need at least another 18” more than his height. So, 5’6” + 18” = 7 feet. Above his hands was a sign, “This is Jesus the King of the Jews.” Now let's add one foot for the posted sign. Now we have the 7 + 1 = 8 foot. A pole would have to be placed into the ground at least 4’ for it to stand upright, especially with the weight of a man nailed to it. So now we would have at a minimum a 12-foot post.Emphasis MINEInsight on the scriptures pub. Watchtower Society wrote:"... if it was six inches (15 centimeters) in diameter and twelve feet (3.6 meters) long, it probably weighed little more than a hundred pounds (45 kilograms).—Mark 15:21." Vol II p. 825
To learn more please go to other posts related to
THE RANSOM SACRIFICE , THE EXECUTION OF CHRIST and ... MEMORIAL OF CHRIST'S DEATH
J.W. it's okay if you admit you're wrong, a little humility can go a long way. I don't understand why you find it so hard to believe Jesus was nailed to a cross. It's a very, very large majority of the Christian world understands Jesus was hung from a cross, and not a pole.
Thomas Merton wrote:
"Pride makes us artificial and humility makes us real."
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Re: The Roman Crucifixion
Post #47Whether it's a coincidence or not, that would also mean that Witness dogma is wrong.placebofactor wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:53 amI don't understand why you find it so hard to believe Jesus was nailed to a cross.

(Mark 15:32)
My pronouns are he, him, and his.
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Re: The Roman Crucifixion
Post #48Thank you, your comment drew my attention to the fact that I had not supported all the necessary dimensions. Please see edited version above ("dimensions"). Maths is my blind spot so feel free to double check the calculations.placebofactor wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:53 am.... That's a pretty skinny pole 6" you're hanging a man on.
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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: The Roman Crucifixion
Post #49The Jehovah's Witness friend I mentioned above, is a builder of homes, and businesses. He's a very intelligent man, and excellent with numbers, he has to be because of his work The numbers he gave me are correct. And as I mentioned before, he had to agree that one man could not have carried that weight from Jerusalem to the place of crucifixion.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 12:20 pmThank you, your comment drew my attention to the fact that I had not supported all the necessary dimensions. Please see edited version above ("dimensions"). Maths is my blind spot so feel free to double check the calculations.placebofactor wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 8:53 am.... That's a pretty skinny pole 6" you're hanging a man on.
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Re: The Roman Crucifixion
Post #50I do always enjoy your analogies, so let me try to use this one to help explain my point.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:39 pm
For example, if 2000 years from now people dug up this forum and noticed 99% of posts refering to "Jesus" were refering one part of a truine god, as confirmed by numerous documented sources (not least of which being the Vatican) and found this to be official "christian" doctrine. Would any of that be decisive in understaning a page found in a Watchtower magazine from the same period?
If people 2,000 years from now are looking at a Watchtower magazine -- trying to figure out what this long, lost group of Jehovah's Witnesses believed -- and that article says they don't believe in the Trinity, then that, of course, supersedes any background knowledge we might have about what Christians generally believed about God. Direct evidence always supersedes our background knowledge.
But let's say we didn't have a lot of Watchtower articles to go on -- so there were holes in our understanding of Jehovah's Witness beliefs, and perhaps some ambiguity in the articles themselves, so it wasn't always clear what they believed. But let's say we also knew that Jehovah's Witnesses came out of the 19th Century Adventist movement. Knowing what was common or typical beliefs among 19th Century Adventists would allow us deduce a lot about what Jehovah's Witnesses likely or probably believed, including their Arian Christology. When filling in these holes in our understanding, that background knowledge wouldn't always be right, of course, but it would help considerably.
And, I think you would have to agree, that it would be significantly more useful than looking at just the surviving Watchtower articles alone, and, when reading them, not giving consideration to what the English words meant at the time of the article's publication, but rather the root meaning of each word -- what it might have meant in, say, Old English or German -- and imposing those archaic definitions onto the text. That would all but guarantee we'd misunderstand what the authors of those Watchtower articles were trying to say.
That latter approach -- the one you outlined above for the Bible -- is often referred to as a word study fallacy.
Let's look at some more scripture then.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:39 pm
Yes, words do have multiple meanings but if the bible writers wrote "stauros" and there is some ambiguity of what they meant, it is for scripture to settled the matter.
First, though, let's consult the picture you posted earlier as illustrative of how you think Jesus was crucified.

Matthew adds this details about Jesus' crucifixion:
If Jesus was crucified on (just) a vertical pole, then the charge against him would not have been put over his "head," but over his hands, as your picture clearly illustrates. For the charge to be placed over his "head," he must have been crucified with a crossbeam, so on a "cross."Matthew 27:37 wrote:
Over his head they put the charge against him, which read, "This is Jesus, the King of the Jews."
John recounts this detail:
If Jesus was crucified on (just) a vertical pole, then there would have been only a single nail driven through his hands, as your picture also illustrates. But Thomas says there were "nails" (plural), which would be in keeping with crucifixion with a crossbeam, since the hands are separated and require two nails.John 20:25 wrote:
So the other disciples told [Thomas], "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see the mark of the nails in his hands and put my finger in the mark of the nails and my hand in his side, I will not believe."
When we combine these details with the fact that the gospel writers tell us Jesus, after being scourged, was forced to carry a beam to his crucifixion -- which by all accounts would likely have been a crossbeam -- it seems to me the historical evidence is all pointing to Jesus being crucified on a cross.