Why are there so few christian here?

[juliod]

This is a great forum for debate. The moderators do a good job of keeping things under control without stopping anyone from posting.

Yet the most observable fact here is the reletive lack of christian posters.

I would expect there to be a lot more, given the popularity of amateur apologetics, and the biblical admonition to spread the faith.

I have a theory that is worthy of debate. I say that religion can only exist in protected environments. There must be an authority that prevents heretics and atheists from engaging in debate on equal grounds. Were there is no such authority, atheists carry the day.

I've seen lots of theist web forums. Invariably they use their administrator powers to support the theist side. It eventually becomes impossible to participate as an atheist. I take my writing seriously, and hate it when I feel that the moderator may delete my article because I say something he just can't bear to hear.

DanZ

[Mae von H]

I’ve noticed atheists very much like the “rational” label but don’t actually think rationality about their position.

I agree; most don't. Hopefully you find some here who do.

So far they lob the usual ad hominem attacks. Short on intellectual material and long on insults.

But in a way I understand. Their position is a house of cards, learned that long ago. Ad hominem is their strongest attack point.

Well I know it's not the thread for it, but I have two big problems with Christianity, both of which are entirely intellectual. A third, if you count the beat-me-I'm-a-dog, turn-the-other-cheek, forgive-people-who-rape-you stuff, but some people debate whether Jesus really told people it's not okay to fight back when people hit you, and what is encompassed by forgiveness. To me it's obvious he did, but if this is not a true part of Christianity then I simply do not have that third problem. If it is then I do. I have to admit that I don't know whether it is or not because God isn't available for me to ask.

There’s a time for war and a time for peace. I believe a christian said that all that needs to happen for evil to succeed is for good men to do NOTHING. Christians, like many, lack wisdom AND courage.

The first problem I have is sin transference. I don't think it is right that one person may suffer for, or make up for, what another has done. The person who murders should go to jail; not someone else. And if people haven't done anything that bad, if it's all actually Eve's fault, then Eve ought to pay for it and not anyone else. This is fundamental to the concept of right and wrong. No one disagrees except in the context of Christianity.

I totally agree. I don’t believe in an inborn sin nature nor that we suffer for Adam’s sin. Is your problem more with Jesus’ suffering?

The second problem is the problem of worship; who gets it and why. You wouldn't worship me if I were all-powerful; I'm a bad person and I admit it. Neither do the people in Star Trek fall to their knees and worship Q when he demonstrates his superior powers, and they do rightly by that. If I cannot be so powerful that my will becomes right, and defying it becomes wrong, then neither can God.

First, many christians are very ignorant regarding worship, We used to call singing “singing,” but with word inflation we are called to stand and “worship.” It’s like saying “and now we WILL love God.” Like unthinking sheep, they do and think they are engaging in the lofty business of worship. Nevermind their songs talk mostly about how great they are (dressed in royal robes and are a friend of God.)

Now I DO know something about worship and I worship Him because of the character He has shown Himself to be. His power plays no role whatsoever. If we read what those who worship Him say, they talk about his character, not his abilities.

I don't care whether the events in the Bible happened or if the Christian God exists. Whether he does or not is totally beside the point to me. He might, but it's unlikely, just as it is unlikely that Odin exists. We might all be fictional. Existence doesn't matter. If such a being were only hypothetical, but good, we ought to heed it. If such a being exists but is evil, we ought to defy it. We ought to defy bullies, whether they simply beat our faces black and blue or toss us into lakes of fire for eternity. I'll be the first to admit that I do not know what right and wrong are. I do know, whatever they are, right ought to be done, and wrong not done, regardless of what anybody says or how powerful they are. This means that there is no God - no being worthy of special moral consideration, no being whose will can make wrong into right - even if there is a being who is very powerful and his name happens to be God.

That’s a lot to address. You seem to be trying to get your thoughts together.

[Purple Knight]

There’s a time for war and a time for peace. I believe a christian said that all that needs to happen for evil to succeed is for good men to do NOTHING. Christians, like many, lack wisdom AND courage.

I don't have a problem with this view. I agree with it, as long as you're saying it's permissible to fight back.

I don’t believe in an inborn sin nature nor that we suffer for Adam’s sin. Is your problem more with Jesus’ suffering?

No; people suffer all the time. I don't even think the argument from suffering is a good one. Without the stick of hunger poking us, we wouldn't go toward the carrot of satisfaction. So we wouldn't learn to do anything. IMO, we wouldn't be conscious.

First, many christians are very ignorant regarding worship, We used to call singing “singing,” but with word inflation we are called to stand and “worship.” It’s like saying “and now we WILL love God.” Like unthinking sheep, they do and think they are engaging in the lofty business of worship. Nevermind their songs talk mostly about how great they are (dressed in royal robes and are a friend of God.)

Now I DO know something about worship and I worship Him because of the character He has shown Himself to be. His power plays no role whatsoever. If we read what those who worship Him say, they talk about his character, not his abilities.

And I disagree that God is of good character, but that's for each individual to judge for themselves. I don't disagree with this notion of worship, and that it has to be mindful, but many others do, or the term "hero worship" wouldn't be seen as derogatory. The idea seems to be that we shouldn't worship other people, no matter how good they are. It always seemed strange to me, because I would rather worship be earned, not given based on the kind of being you happen to be. Have you noticed this? That the notion that worship can be earned, is seen as almost blasphemous?

[Tcg]

[Replying to juliod in post #1]

One reason there are few Christians here is because they get banned on a regular basis. 8 out of the first 10 posters listed as being banned in the thread that records such are Christians. There were a couple posters I skipped in that tally because I couldn't determine if they were Christians or just theists of some unspecified variety. To state the obvious only 2 atheists were banned during the time of that tally.

As a side note, while researching that tally, I noticed one Christian threatening another poster with hell fire. I've never once seen an atheist resort to such scare tactics.


Tcg

[Mae von H]

There’s a time for war and a time for peace. I believe a christian said that all that needs to happen for evil to succeed is for good men to do NOTHING. Christians, like many, lack wisdom AND courage.

I don't have a problem with this view. I agree with it, as long as you're saying it's permissible to fight back.

That’s exactly what I’m saying although it’s permissible to defend the defenseless even if one is not personally threatened.

I don’t believe in an inborn sin nature nor that we suffer for Adam’s sin. Is your problem more with Jesus’ suffering?

No; people suffer all the time. I don't even think the argument from suffering is a good one. Without the stick of hunger poking us, we wouldn't go toward the carrot of satisfaction. So we wouldn't learn to do anything. IMO, we wouldn't be conscious.

OK

First, many christians are very ignorant regarding worship, We used to call singing “singing,” but with word inflation we are called to stand and “worship.” It’s like saying “and now we WILL love God.” Like unthinking sheep, they do and think they are engaging in the lofty business of worship. Nevermind their songs talk mostly about how great they are (dressed in royal robes and are a friend of God.)

Now I DO know something about worship and I worship Him because of the character He has shown Himself to be. His power plays no role whatsoever. If we read what those who worship Him say, they talk about his character, not his abilities.

And I disagree that God is of good character, but that's for each individual to judge for themselves.

On what basis do you make that judgement and, no, we don’t have the right to decide on own personal opinion measured against nothing objective whether someone is of good character or not. We can make such a decision and be completely wrong. The goodness of their character stands alone. Our opinion has no bearing on the truth.

I don't disagree with this notion of worship, and that it has to be mindful, but many others do, or the term "hero worship" wouldn't be seen as derogatory. The idea seems to be that we shouldn't worship other people, no matter how good they are. It always seemed strange to me, because I would rather worship be earned, not given based on the kind of being you happen to be. Have you noticed this? That the notion that worship can be earned, is seen as almost blasphemous?

That last statement is interesting and I’d have to give it more thought. Never considered this before.

[otseng]

I’ve noticed atheists very much like the “rational” label but don’t actually think rationality about their position.

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[otseng]

I’ve noticed atheists very much like the “rational” label but don’t actually think rationality about their position.

With my moderator hat off now. This is a true statement across the board, whether for Christians or atheists. People like to think of themselves as being rational, but when pressed, their argumentation is often not. After running this forum for 20 years and seeing many people argue here, the majority of debaters fall under this. Yes, there are a few who are stellar debaters (including both skeptics and believers), but they are an extreme minority.

[otseng]

Yet the most observable fact here is the reletive lack of christian posters.

I would expect there to be a lot more, given the popularity of amateur apologetics, and the biblical admonition to spread the faith.

In my many years as a Christian, I've rarely come across any in the church that have seriously studied apologetics and how to debate.

[Mae von H]

Yet the most observable fact here is the reletive lack of christian posters.

I would expect there to be a lot more, given the popularity of amateur apologetics, and the biblical admonition to spread the faith.

In my many years as a Christian, I've rarely come across any in the church that have seriously studied apologetics and how to debate.

In general, people don’t seem to be able to think or want to think. Few challenge their own thinking “desiring truth in the inner most being.”

[Mae von H]

[Replying to juliod in post #1]

One reason there are few Christians here is because they get banned on a regular basis. 8 out of the first 10 posters listed as being banned in the thread that records such are Christians. There were a couple posters I skipped in that tally because I couldn't determine if they were Christians or just theists of some unspecified variety. To state the obvious only 2 atheists were banned during the time of that tally.

As a side note, while researching that tally, I noticed one Christian threatening another poster with hell fire. I've never once seen an atheist resort to such scare tactics.


Tcg

Did the Christian think he could carry that threat? Otherwise it sounds a lot like grade school playground mentality…”my dad can beat you up.”

[Locust]

This is a great forum for debate. The moderators do a good job of keeping things under control without stopping anyone from posting.

Yet the most observable fact here is the reletive lack of christian posters.

I would expect there to be a lot more, given the popularity of amateur apologetics, and the biblical admonition to spread the faith.

I have a theory that is worthy of debate. I say that religion can only exist in protected environments. There must be an authority that prevents heretics and atheists from engaging in debate on equal grounds. Were there is no such authority, atheists carry the day.

I've seen lots of theist web forums. Invariably they use their administrator powers to support the theist side. It eventually becomes impossible to participate as an atheist. I take my writing seriously, and hate it when I feel that the moderator may delete my article because I say something he just can't bear to hear.

DanZ

it just went up one