My take on Proverbs 8

[placebofactor]

The following from Proverbs 8, is one of the most positive proofs of the Sons relation to his Father. Wisdom refers to the Son of God, He is the Wisdom of God giving further proof of our Lord's Divinity. Proverbs 8 gives us a double sense of prophecy, the same double sense we find in David and Isaiah. The apostle John more than likely alludes to this passage in the introduction of his gospel, where he speaks of the Son of God, under the character of the Logos (or the Word); which can be rendered either the Wisdom, the Reason, or the Word of God.

1 Corinthians 1:24, Jesus is said to be, “The power of God, and the Wisdom of God." This Divine power and Wisdom have been imparted from the Father, to establish his only begotten Son with infinite skill, insight, knowledge, and wisdom to those who desire to receive it.

Proverbs 8:14, “Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.”

Verse 15, “By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.”
Daniel 2:21, “God “removes kings, and (raises) kings.”

Verse 17, “I love them that love me; and those that seek me early (diligently) shall find me.” Compare with,
Hosea 5:15, the LORD is speaking to Israel, “I will go and return to my place, ---------- and seek my face: in their affliction, they will seek me early (diligently).”

Proverbs 8:19, “My fruit is better than gold,” Compare with,
Revelation 3:18, Jesus is speaking, “I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich.”

Proverbs 8:22, “The LORD (the Father) possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.” Possessed is to set up, to inherit, before the work of creation began. Compare with,
John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Proverbs 8:23, “I (Wisdom) was set up (anointed) from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.” Jesus was enthroned over all the works of the Father. Compare with,
Hebrews 1:9, “God (the Father) has anointed thee (Jesus) with the oil of gladness above they fellows.

Proverbs 8:24, “When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.”
Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning"
Genesis 1:3, “And God said let there be light: and there was light.”
2 Corinthians 4:6, “For God (the Father), who commanded the light to shine out of darkness,”

Before the mountains and hill were brought forth before he had made the earth, fields, or dust of the Earth, when he prepared the heavens, and when he drew a circle upon the surface of the deep
Proverbs 8:29-30, "When He (the Father) appointed (decreed) the foundations of the earth..." This is the declaration of the Father's will, concerning the creation of heaven and earth.
Then I (Wisdom, Jesus) was by him, (the Father) as one brought up with Him." The word "brought" is not the same word used in verse 24. Here it means to be trusted, confided in, and believed in, and also implies that Jesus, ascended to, as in will and deed, to His Father's will. Jesus was fixed, permanent, and durable, truth was in Him.

What’s your take on these verses?

[onewithhim]

You just showed what being filled with the fullness of God really means. It is not that Christ is fully God, because the verse above says that a Christian individual can be filled with the fullness of God. Does that make him equal to God?

Christ is the fulness, as in divine perfections, and in the full measure of the Father's divine perfections. When we are in Christ, we are under the glory and fulness, that is in Christ.

Colossians 2:8, Paul wrote, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Then he writes, "For in him (Christ) dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." This one Greek word Godhead is used only once in the N.T. And in Colossians 2:8, t means, the divine nature and perfections of the Father are in Christ. Another thing we must consider. Paul does not use Jesus' proper name, but his title as the Christ or Messiah. We are in the fulness of his authority as our King, Prophet, and High Priest.

Ephesians 3:19, "To know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fulness of God."

I might add that the word "Godhead" is not used by all translators, and is unique to the KJV, which other translators emulate. If these versions were translated from the original words, that word would not be part of it. For example:

1) The New Testament in English by Sheed and Ward, 1944, Msgr Knox, newly translated from the Vulgate Latin at the request of their lordships, the Archbishops and Bishops of England and Wales. "In Christ the whole plenitude of Deity is embodied, and dwells in him...." There is no "Godhead" in this translation approved by the "Lordships" of England and Wales.

2) The New American Standard Bible: "For in him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." No "Godhead."

3) The New American Bible: "For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily." No "Godhead."

4) The Revised Standard Version: "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily." No "Godhead."

5) The New International Version: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." No "Godhead."

6) 21st Century New Testament: "Remember that he fully embodies divine authority and power." No "Godhead."

7) The Bible in Living English: In him all the fullness of deity is resident in bodily form." No "Godhead."

8) James Moffatt Translation: "It is in Christ that the entire fullness of deity has settled bodily." No "Godhead."

9) The Jerusalem Bible: "In his body lives the fullness of divinity." No "Godhead."

10) The New Jerusalem Bible: "In him, in bodily form, lives divinity in all its fullness." No "Godhead."

I could go on. "Godhead" is not the absolutely correct word in this verse, according to many versions. "Godhead" implies that there are three heads to God, and that is not what the verse is implying. It mentions Christ and God, and how "Christ in his human incarnation [bodily] has fully revealed the moral nature and the loving heart of God, and by his spiritual presence imparts power to live a life of moral rectitude in loving obedience toward God." (See The Interpreter's Bible, Vol.II, Abingdon.)

Yes, some translations used "deity" even the original Greek "deity"i s "theotes" Bible lexicon defined it as the state of being God.


Col 2:9 For   in  him  dwells   all   the   fullness   of the   deity  bodily. 

Col 2:9 For G3754  in G1722  him G1473  dwells G2730  all G3956  the G3588  fullness G4138  of the G3588  deity G2320  bodily. G4985 

Col 2:9 οτι G3754  εν G1722  αυτω G1473  κατοικει G2730  παν G3956  το G3588  πληρωμα G4138  της G3588  θεοτητος G2320  σωματικως 

Col 2:9 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς

G2320 (Thayer)
θεότης theotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead

Jesus is the fullness OF the Deity, not the Deity Himself. He has enough resemblances to his Father that he can be said to be filled with his Father's attributes. Like Father, like Son.

If you believe that the Father is Deity.
Jesus is Deity.
Would Jesus was wrong when He says, all that the Father has is mine? (John 16:15)

No, it doesn't follow that Jesus is Deity. Of course he wouldn't say that he would have the Father's own superiority. Jesus said many times that he relied on the Father for everything. The Father is clearly superior. He said to his Father: "YOU are the only true God." Don't you believe Jesus' own words?

Yes, I believe Jesus own words that says, all that the Father has is mine, it includes as the one true God, the Almighty etc. (Rev 1:8)
Remember that to experience eternal life Christians mst know who really Jesus is. (John 17:3, 1John 5:20)
Is Jesus wrong when He said the John 16:15?

Jesus would not say that he is equal to the Father. That is not what he meant. The Father gave him all things, with the exception, of course, of the Father's position in the universe. That is to be understood. You apparently do not believe Jesus when he says that the Father alone is the one true God (John 17:3). Yes, we must know who Jesus really is, and you must start listening to ALL that he says, not just a verse here and there. Jehovah, the Father, is even called by Jesus "my God." (John 20:17) The Father alone is God, and even the God of Jesus. Why don't you recognize Revelation 3:12 where Jesus again indicates that he has a God? He said:

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God...and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my new name." (Revelation 3:12, NASB)

The Scripture says that Jesus is the same at all times, in the past, now, and in the future. (Hebrew 13:8) That means that he believed what he said at John 14:28---"the Father is greater than I am." That goes for all time, even when he ascended back to heaven after his resurrection. The Apostle Paul said clearly as well, "the head of the Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3) Jesus always recognized that the Father alone is God and superior even to himself. We must accept this if we are to stay in God's favor.

Yes, the Father is greater, higher in rank or position than Jesus but that does not mean that Jesus is not in the state of being God.
Just like you and your son, you rank high etc as a mother but you are the same in the state of being human.

Yes, Jesus is "not in the state of being God." He said that the Father was "the only true God." (John 17:3) I am higher in "rank" than my son, and that doesn't mean he is equal to me. We are both human, just as God and Jesus are both Spirit individuals. Being Spirit individuals does not make Jesus equal to his Father, just as both being human doesn't make my son and me equal.

[Capbook]

Christ is the fulness, as in divine perfections, and in the full measure of the Father's divine perfections. When we are in Christ, we are under the glory and fulness, that is in Christ.

Colossians 2:8, Paul wrote, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Then he writes, "For in him (Christ) dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." This one Greek word Godhead is used only once in the N.T. And in Colossians 2:8, t means, the divine nature and perfections of the Father are in Christ. Another thing we must consider. Paul does not use Jesus' proper name, but his title as the Christ or Messiah. We are in the fulness of his authority as our King, Prophet, and High Priest.

Ephesians 3:19, "To know the love of Christ, which passes knowledge, that you might be filled with all the fulness of God."

I might add that the word "Godhead" is not used by all translators, and is unique to the KJV, which other translators emulate. If these versions were translated from the original words, that word would not be part of it. For example:

1) The New Testament in English by Sheed and Ward, 1944, Msgr Knox, newly translated from the Vulgate Latin at the request of their lordships, the Archbishops and Bishops of England and Wales. "In Christ the whole plenitude of Deity is embodied, and dwells in him...." There is no "Godhead" in this translation approved by the "Lordships" of England and Wales.

2) The New American Standard Bible: "For in him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." No "Godhead."

3) The New American Bible: "For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily." No "Godhead."

4) The Revised Standard Version: "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily." No "Godhead."

5) The New International Version: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." No "Godhead."

6) 21st Century New Testament: "Remember that he fully embodies divine authority and power." No "Godhead."

7) The Bible in Living English: In him all the fullness of deity is resident in bodily form." No "Godhead."

8) James Moffatt Translation: "It is in Christ that the entire fullness of deity has settled bodily." No "Godhead."

9) The Jerusalem Bible: "In his body lives the fullness of divinity." No "Godhead."

10) The New Jerusalem Bible: "In him, in bodily form, lives divinity in all its fullness." No "Godhead."

I could go on. "Godhead" is not the absolutely correct word in this verse, according to many versions. "Godhead" implies that there are three heads to God, and that is not what the verse is implying. It mentions Christ and God, and how "Christ in his human incarnation [bodily] has fully revealed the moral nature and the loving heart of God, and by his spiritual presence imparts power to live a life of moral rectitude in loving obedience toward God." (See The Interpreter's Bible, Vol.II, Abingdon.)

Yes, some translations used "deity" even the original Greek "deity"i s "theotes" Bible lexicon defined it as the state of being God.


Col 2:9 For   in  him  dwells   all   the   fullness   of the   deity  bodily. 

Col 2:9 For G3754  in G1722  him G1473  dwells G2730  all G3956  the G3588  fullness G4138  of the G3588  deity G2320  bodily. G4985 

Col 2:9 οτι G3754  εν G1722  αυτω G1473  κατοικει G2730  παν G3956  το G3588  πληρωμα G4138  της G3588  θεοτητος G2320  σωματικως 

Col 2:9 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς

G2320 (Thayer)
θεότης theotēs
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead

Jesus is the fullness OF the Deity, not the Deity Himself. He has enough resemblances to his Father that he can be said to be filled with his Father's attributes. Like Father, like Son.

If you believe that the Father is Deity.
Jesus is Deity.
Would Jesus was wrong when He says, all that the Father has is mine? (John 16:15)

No, it doesn't follow that Jesus is Deity. Of course he wouldn't say that he would have the Father's own superiority. Jesus said many times that he relied on the Father for everything. The Father is clearly superior. He said to his Father: "YOU are the only true God." Don't you believe Jesus' own words?

Yes, I believe Jesus own words that says, all that the Father has is mine, it includes as the one true God, the Almighty etc. (Rev 1:8)
Remember that to experience eternal life Christians mst know who really Jesus is. (John 17:3, 1John 5:20)
Is Jesus wrong when He said the John 16:15?

Jesus would not say that he is equal to the Father. That is not what he meant. The Father gave him all things, with the exception, of course, of the Father's position in the universe. That is to be understood. You apparently do not believe Jesus when he says that the Father alone is the one true God (John 17:3). Yes, we must know who Jesus really is, and you must start listening to ALL that he says, not just a verse here and there. Jehovah, the Father, is even called by Jesus "my God." (John 20:17) The Father alone is God, and even the God of Jesus. Why don't you recognize Revelation 3:12 where Jesus again indicates that he has a God? He said:

"He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God...and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my new name." (Revelation 3:12, NASB)

The Scripture says that Jesus is the same at all times, in the past, now, and in the future. (Hebrew 13:8) That means that he believed what he said at John 14:28---"the Father is greater than I am." That goes for all time, even when he ascended back to heaven after his resurrection. The Apostle Paul said clearly as well, "the head of the Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3) Jesus always recognized that the Father alone is God and superior even to himself. We must accept this if we are to stay in God's favor.

Yes, the Father is greater, higher in rank or position than Jesus but that does not mean that Jesus is not in the state of being God.
Just like you and your son, you rank high etc as a mother but you are the same in the state of being human.

Yes, Jesus is "not in the state of being God." He said that the Father was "the only true God." (John 17:3) I am higher in "rank" than my son, and that doesn't mean he is equal to me. We are both human, just as God and Jesus are both Spirit individuals. Being Spirit individuals does not make Jesus equal to his Father, just as both being human doesn't make my son and me equal.

I just believe all of us are the same in the state of being human, whom need a Savior.
And Jesus had said that, " all the Father has is mine" isn't that equality in simple mathematics?

[JehovahsWitness]

And Jesus had said that, " all the Father has is mine" isn't that equality in simple mathematics?

Jesus stated categorically that he got all his authority from his Father so whatever he has he recieved.

LUKE 10:22a

All things have been handed over to me by my Father ...

If we are going to do Maths Jesus started with zero and Jehovah [YHWH] with everything to infinity.

[Capbook]

And Jesus had said that, " all the Father has is mine" isn't that equality in simple mathematics?

Jesus stated categorically that he got all his authority from his Father so whatever he has he recieved.

LUKE 10:22a

All things have been handed over to me by my Father ...

If we are going to do Maths Jesus started with zero and Jehovah [YHWH] with everything to infinity.

But what Jesus meant when He says, "that He (the Father) will take what is mine".
Is Jesus wrong when He says that? (John 16:15)

Jhn 16:15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you

[JehovahsWitness]

But what Jesus meant when He says, "that He (the Father) will take what is mine".
Is Jesus wrong when He says that? (John 16:15)

Before I answer your second question, do you acknowledge Jesus stated clearly that "All things " were given to him by his Father or are you calling him a liar?

Before the Father gave him all things what did Jesus have?

LUKE 10:22a

All things have been handed over to me by my Father ...

[Capbook]

But what Jesus meant when He says, "that He (the Father) will take what is mine".
Is Jesus wrong when He says that? (John 16:15)

Before I answer your second question, do you acknowledge Jesus stated clearly that "All things " were given to him by his Father or are you calling him a liar?

Before the Father gave him all things what did Jesus have?

LUKE 10:22a

All things have been handed over to me by my Father ...

For us, all what the Father and Jesus said are truth and in harmony as they are one in the state of being God. Both eternal and have all. (John 1:1)
In the likeness of man, Jesus was obedient to the Father even to the cross, even pray to the Father just like any other man.
But in the form of God, Jesus had said, all that the Father has is mine.
Now, back to my question, was Jesus wrong when He said, "that He (the Father) will take what is mine?" John 16:15

[JehovahsWitness]

But in the form of God, Jesus had said, all that the Father has is mine.

That can't be right because Jesus in the form of a man when he said the above.

JOHN 16:15 (KJV)

All things that the Father hath are mine ...

LUKE 10:22a

All things have been handed over to me by my Father ...

Let's get to the bottom of thus shall we.. .


- so when did Jehovah [The Father] hand Jesus "all things" when he was with God in heaven or when he was a human on earth?


JW

[Capbook]

But in the form of God, Jesus had said, all that the Father has is mine.

That cant be right because Jesus in the form of a man when he said the above.

LUKE 10:22a

All things have been handed over to me by my Father ...

JW

You again cut my reply, though He is in the likeness of man, He retained (harpagmos) the being in the form of God.
Now can you answer question I colored blue below?

For us, all what the Father and Jesus said are truth and in harmony as they are one in the state of being God. Both eternal and have all. (John 1:1)
In the likeness of man, Jesus was obedient to the Father even to the cross, even pray to the Father just like any other man.
But in the form of God, Jesus had said, all that the Father has is mine.
Now, back to my question, was Jesus wrong when He said, "that He (the Father) will take what is mine?" John 16:15

G725 (Thayer)
ἁρπαγμός
harpagmos
Thayer Definition:
1) the act of seizing, robbery
2) a thing seized or to be seized
2a) booty to deem anything a prize
2b) a thing to be seized upon or to be held fast, retained

[JehovahsWitness]

You again cut my reply

I cut out what is irrelevant...

The question is simple - when did Jehovah [The Father] hand Jesus "all things"? When Jesus was with God in heaven or when Jesus was a human on earth?

• If the God handed Jesus "all things" while he was in heaven, that means even as a mighty spirit there was a time when he { Jesus / the Word} did NOT have all things.

• If the God handed Jesus "all things" while he was a human on earth, that means being in possession everything / all things does not make him equal with God because as a human he would be INFERIOR to God in heaven.

Either way, that makes Jesus inferior to God while in heaven or inferior to to God while in possession of everything .

And Jesus had said that, " all the Father has is mine" isn't that equality in simple mathematics?

No, see above.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Capbook]

You again cut my reply

I cut out what is irrelevant...

The question is simple - when did Jehovah [The Father] hand Jesus "all things"? When he was with God in heaven or when he was a human on earth?

• If the God handed Jesus "all things" while he was in heaven, that means even as a mighty spirit there was a time when he { Jesus / the Word} did not have all things.

• If the God handed Jesus "all things" while he was a human on earth, that means being in possession everything / all things does not make him equal with God because as a human he would be INFERIOR to God in heaven.

Either way, that makes Jesus inferior to God while in heaven or inferior to to God while in possession of everything .

Both have all the things being God (John 1:1) Yes, the Father is greater, high in rank or position than Jesus but they are the same in the state of being God. Just lke you and your son, you have high position or rank than him but you are the same in the state of being human.
Do you consider Jesus words irrelevant?
Now, back to my question, was Jesus wrong when He said, "that He (the Father) will take what is mine?" John 16:15